Scratching my head...

Mako2011 said:

Dennis said:

gordonkim said:

Dennis,

Just wondering how difficult you find shooting hockey with the AF-ON button in the back given the speed and pace of the sport?

Click to expand...

It took a short time to get used to it (I'd half-press the shutter release and wonder why it wasn't focusing !) After that, it's great. I have AF-C whenever I want it by holding the button (then press the shutter when ready - you have to remember to half-press early enough to let VR kick in but since I'm at 1/500s I shut VR off anyway).

Click to expand...

Yes, VR is not activated with the AE-L/AF-L button when using AF-ON (back button) focus on the D7000. So no, you do not see the image stabilizing in the view finder until you half press the shutter release button. BUT, VR still stabilizes the actual exposure when you take the picture with AF-ON because to take the picture you have to still press the shutter release button . Doing that starts Exposure Mode VR as the mirror rises even though Pres-Exposure mode VR never really came into effect as you never really paused at half press. The VR that causes camera shake to be diminished during exposure is activated by pressing the shutter release regardless is OF-ON is used or not. If the lens VR switch is on...you can't stop VR from affecting the picture when you press the shutter release. The VR step at half causes a stabilized image in the view finder but has no relation to the VR process being applied during the actual exposure. Hope that's clear. My wording can always use some work.

Here is a representative sample taken from a test set

100% crops of my 105mm F2.8 at 1/125s. Taken using AF-ON (back-Button) focus method. Picture focused with finger off the shutter release button then exposure taken with a fast press of shutter release with no pause at half press. As you can see, VR is still very effective using AF-ON. Hope this helps to better explain my post

Click to expand...

See my response below about VR.

I shoot my kid's hockey using the 50mm 1.8 prime , D7000 in M mode, A set to 2.8 time to 500 and ISO on Auto and continuos shooting.

I shoot through the glass - be sure your lens touches the glass so no reflexion/difraction happens.

The focus settings I use is AF-C, 9 points - be sure the A3 is off.

The key in sports is to anticipate the action: focus on your kid (push the release button half way) and follow until him/her makes the their move (ex: takes the shot, the goalie makes the save, etc).

I am amazed by the D7000 focus system: I would say that my keeper rate is about 8 out of 10 pictures - and hockey is pretty hard to shoot in special for a beginner sports shooter like me.

nfpotter said:

Mako2011 said:

Dennis said:

gordonkim said:

Dennis,

Just wondering how difficult you find shooting hockey with the AF-ON button in the back given the speed and pace of the sport?

Click to expand...

It took a short time to get used to it (I'd half-press the shutter release and wonder why it wasn't focusing !) After that, it's great. I have AF-C whenever I want it by holding the button (then press the shutter when ready - you have to remember to half-press early enough to let VR kick in but since I'm at 1/500s I shut VR off anyway).

Click to expand...

Yes, VR is not activated with the AE-L/AF-L button when using AF-ON (back button) focus on the D7000. So no, you do not see the image stabilizing in the view finder until you half press the shutter release button. BUT, VR still stabilizes the actual exposure when you take the picture with AF-ON because to take the picture you have to still press the shutter release button . Doing that starts Exposure Mode VR as the mirror rises even though Pres-Exposure mode VR never really came into effect as you never really paused at half press. The VR that causes camera shake to be diminished during exposure is activated by pressing the shutter release regardless is OF-ON is used or not. If the lens VR switch is on...you can't stop VR from affecting the picture when you press the shutter release. The VR step at half causes a stabilized image in the view finder but has no relation to the VR process being applied during the actual exposure. Hope that's clear. My wording can always use some work.

Here is a representative sample taken from a test set

100% crops of my 105mm F2.8 at 1/125s. Taken using AF-ON (back-Button) focus method. Picture focused with finger off the shutter release button then exposure taken with a fast press of shutter release with no pause at half press. As you can see, VR is still very effective using AF-ON. Hope this helps to better explain my post

Click to expand...

See my response below about VR.

Click to expand...

Yes, per-exposure VR is a big help at times and it would be nice to see the ability to toggle it on and off with AF-ON (some like it off to save battery). Just pointing out though that how VR affects the final image regards camera motion is unaffected by using AF-ON. Some don't realize that and don't use AF-ON because of that minor misconception.

nfpotter said:

Sener said:

Auto ISO may be tricky as it uses the ISO presently set (while the Auto ISO is on) as the minimum ISO.

Also the max ISO setting might be too low to reach the desired shutter speed, as expressed above.

If the environment is dim, underexposing the shots a little, in order to gain shutter speed, would be a good idea since D7000 raw files provide good headrom in PP. You can push their exposure in the PP.

Click to expand...

You should never under-expose on purpose.

Click to expand...

Only if you're at base ISO. If it means that you have to raise the ISO to get the "correct" exposure, then you may be better off by under exposing and pushing in PP because the D7000 sensor is ISOless for all practical purposes.

sshoihet said:

nfpotter said:

Sener said:

Auto ISO may be tricky as it uses the ISO presently set (while the Auto ISO is on) as the minimum ISO.

Also the max ISO setting might be too low to reach the desired shutter speed, as expressed above.

If the environment is dim, underexposing the shots a little, in order to gain shutter speed, would be a good idea since D7000 raw files provide good headrom in PP. You can push their exposure in the PP.

Click to expand...

You should never under-expose on purpose.

Click to expand...

Only if you're at base ISO. If it means that you have to raise the ISO to get the "correct" exposure, then you may be better off by under exposing and pushing in PP because the D7000 sensor is ISOless for all practical purposes.

Click to expand...

Not true at all. Under-exposure is the main cause of noise in digital photos, and while the D7K is very good at base ISO (low read noise), the same principle applies. I have shots there are noisy as hell at base ISO, I can show you if you like. And once you go over about ISO 400 or so, the D7K behaves much like any other digital camera, with regards to under-exposure and noise.

One should use ETTR for ALL digital phtography.

Mako2011 said:

So no, you do not see the image stabilizing in the view finder until you half press the shutter release button. BUT, VR still stabilizes the actual exposure when you take the picture with AF-ON because to take the picture you have to still press the shutter release button . Doing that starts Exposure Mode VR as the mirror rises even though Pres-Exposure mode VR never really came into effect as you never really paused at half press.

Click to expand...

That makes sense; I was just under the impression that VR benefited from being activated a bit before the exposure, giving it a little more time to react to camera motion. Maybe I'm mistaken there. (Maybe I should try it out - you demonstrated that it accomplishes something even on an instantaneous release so maybe I should take the time to see if there's any benefit to activating it early !)

I know that on my older Sony with sensor based IS, giving the camera a moment to "settle down" after a significant motion (like picking the camera up and putting it to my eye quickly or turning suddenly to shoot something in a different direction) often helped a lot, but that's not quite the same thing as whether or not it needs time to get "up to speed".

Mako2011 said:

Hope that's clear.

Click to expand...

Definitely ! I wasn't trying to suggest that there was something unique to AF-ON that required this; only that I believed (maybe incorrectly) that the half press I'd use for focusing also gave the VR system a "head start" that provided some benefit.

Thanks for the clarification - I may have misled the OP into thinking it was more complicated than it is.

• Dennis

--
Gallery at http://kingofthebeasts.smugmug.com

nfpotter said:

I also wish Nikon would fix the firmware so that AF-ON triggered VR, like it does on the newer D800 and D4. Helps a lot when trying to obtain intial focus, hand-held with long lenses like my Bigma.

Click to expand...

That's a good point - I hadn't considered that. I had a 400mm lens that I'd shoot with a 1.4X on my Sony, but only ever from a tripod. But now that you mention it, I could see where stabilizing the image lets the AF sensor see what you want it to see.

• Dennis

--
Gallery at http://kingofthebeasts.smugmug.com

nfpotter said:

sshoihet said:

nfpotter said:

Sener said:

Auto ISO may be tricky as it uses the ISO presently set (while the Auto ISO is on) as the minimum ISO.

Also the max ISO setting might be too low to reach the desired shutter speed, as expressed above.

If the environment is dim, underexposing the shots a little, in order to gain shutter speed, would be a good idea since D7000 raw files provide good headrom in PP. You can push their exposure in the PP.

Click to expand...

You should never under-expose on purpose.

Click to expand...

Only if you're at base ISO. If it means that you have to raise the ISO to get the "correct" exposure, then you may be better off by under exposing and pushing in PP because the D7000 sensor is ISOless for all practical purposes.

Click to expand...

Not true at all. Under-exposure is the main cause of noise in digital photos, and while the D7K is very good at base ISO (low read noise), the same principle applies. I have shots there are noisy as hell at base ISO, I can show you if you like. And once you go over about ISO 400 or so, the D7K behaves much like any other digital camera, with regards to under-exposure and noise.

One should use ETTR for ALL digital phtography.

Click to expand...

Not always. There are times when underexposing at Base ISO (uniWB as example) with the D7000 can be a very good strategy to achieve a desired output. There is no right all the time way.

A diffrent way

" If ETTR essentially means maximising the number of photons detected (without clipping non-specular highlights) then ETTR is only possible at base ISO. Any exposure at a higher-than-base ISO, which does not result in a clipping of highlights, is an underexposure which has been amplified in-camera to a degree specified by the ISO setting.

To put it another way, any ISO setting above base ISO is an instruction to the camera to treat the signal as though it is an underexposure and to apply the appropriate degree of amplification in accordance with those instructions.

As you know, it's long been recognised with Canon and Nikon cameras that such amplification has advantages with regard to SNR because the amplification takes place before A/D conversion so that all further processing up-chain is effectively of a signal which is no longer underexposed.

Such an amplified signal will inevitably contain more noise than an ETTR exposure at base ISO, but the additional noise introduced as the signal is processed in-camera, starting with the A/D conversion, will have no more of an adverse effect on SNR than it would have had if the signal had been an ETTR at base ISO.

The consequence of this approach is that an ETTR exposure at ISO 200 has a better SNR than the same exposure at ISO 100, with most Canon and Nikon cameras.

The D7000 and Pentax K5 seem to have broken with this tradition. Unless you want a nice-looking review on the camera's LCD screen to show off the shot you've just taken of the nice-looking lady, it's probably better to underexpose 1 stop at base ISO than attempt an ETTR at ISO 200, or underexpose 2 stops at ISO 100 than attempt an ETTR at ISO 400 etc, etc.

The advantage of this different technique with the D7000 is that there's no danger of blowing highlights but also no disadvantage of getting a worse SNR than one might have got using an ETTR at the appropriately higher ISO in relation to the same shutter speed and aperture."

Mako2011 said:

nfpotter said:

sshoihet said:

nfpotter said:

Sener said:

Auto ISO may be tricky as it uses the ISO presently set (while the Auto ISO is on) as the minimum ISO.

Also the max ISO setting might be too low to reach the desired shutter speed, as expressed above.

If the environment is dim, underexposing the shots a little, in order to gain shutter speed, would be a good idea since D7000 raw files provide good headrom in PP. You can push their exposure in the PP.

Click to expand...

You should never under-expose on purpose.

Click to expand...

Only if you're at base ISO. If it means that you have to raise the ISO to get the "correct" exposure, then you may be better off by under exposing and pushing in PP because the D7000 sensor is ISOless for all practical purposes.

Click to expand...

Not true at all. Under-exposure is the main cause of noise in digital photos, and while the D7K is very good at base ISO (low read noise), the same principle applies. I have shots there are noisy as hell at base ISO, I can show you if you like. And once you go over about ISO 400 or so, the D7K behaves much like any other digital camera, with regards to under-exposure and noise.

One should use ETTR for ALL digital phtography.

Click to expand...

Not always. There are times when underexposing at Base ISO (uniWB as example) with the D7000 can be a very good strategy to achieve a desired output. There is no right all the time way.

Click to expand...

The problem with that is that there is much more information captured in the highs than in the lows. Therefore, ETTR still makes sense. You can always pull the exposure down in PP, and then you have maximized the DR that the camera is capable of capturing.

nfpotter said:

Mako2011 said:

nfpotter said:

sshoihet said:

nfpotter said:

Sener said:

Auto ISO may be tricky as it uses the ISO presently set (while the Auto ISO is on) as the minimum ISO.

Also the max ISO setting might be too low to reach the desired shutter speed, as expressed above.

If the environment is dim, underexposing the shots a little, in order to gain shutter speed, would be a good idea since D7000 raw files provide good headrom in PP. You can push their exposure in the PP.

Click to expand...

You should never under-expose on purpose.

Click to expand...

Only if you're at base ISO. If it means that you have to raise the ISO to get the "correct" exposure, then you may be better off by under exposing and pushing in PP because the D7000 sensor is ISOless for all practical purposes.

Click to expand...

Not true at all. Under-exposure is the main cause of noise in digital photos, and while the D7K is very good at base ISO (low read noise), the same principle applies. I have shots there are noisy as hell at base ISO, I can show you if you like. And once you go over about ISO 400 or so, the D7K behaves much like any other digital camera, with regards to under-exposure and noise.

One should use ETTR for ALL digital phtography.

Click to expand...

Not always. There are times when underexposing at Base ISO (uniWB as example) with the D7000 can be a very good strategy to achieve a desired output. There is no right all the time way.

Click to expand...

The problem with that is that there is much more information captured in the highs than in the lows. Therefore, ETTR still makes sense. You can always pull the exposure down in PP, and then you have maximized the DR that the camera is capable of capturing.

Click to expand...

See the edit above....ETTR is not always the best course...nor is underexposure.

sshoihet said:

nfpotter said:

You should never under-expose on purpose.

Click to expand...

Only if you're at base ISO. If it means that you have to raise the ISO to get the "correct" exposure, then you may be better off by under exposing and pushing in PP because the D7000 sensor is ISOless for all practical purposes.

Click to expand...

But how does that make you better off ? I would agree that you're no worse off ... except that you have to muck around in PP (and the PPing isn't trivial in Lightroom; Auto gives terrible results and adjusting exposure requires changes to the curve - at least in LR 3.5).

(I'm assuming that we're talking about shooting at the aperture and shutter speed you want, and discussing whether to bump ISO in camera or in PPing.)

The biggest advantage I see to underexposing is just to avoid clipped highlights (if that's a significant concern). Other than that, Auto ISO saves a lot of unnecessary post processing if you're shooting a few dozen pictures at a hockey practice or 1200 pictures over two days of dance recitals.

• Dennis

--
Gallery at http://kingofthebeasts.smugmug.com

Dennis said:

Mako2011 said:

So no, you do not see the image stabilizing in the view finder until you half press the shutter release button. BUT, VR still stabilizes the actual exposure when you take the picture with AF-ON because to take the picture you have to still press the shutter release button . Doing that starts Exposure Mode VR as the mirror rises even though Pres-Exposure mode VR never really came into effect as you never really paused at half press.

Click to expand...

That makes sense; I was just under the impression that VR benefited from being activated a bit before the exposure, giving it a little more time to react to camera motion. Maybe I'm mistaken there.

Click to expand...

You are as regards the actuall image there is not benefit to pre-exposure VR other than letting the operator get a better chance at focus...no dif regards camera shake.

Here are examples of No VR...VR stabilized in the view finder...and VR with no view finder stabilization (no pause at half press of the shutter release).

Dennis said:

(Maybe I should try it out - you demonstrated that it accomplishes something even on an instantaneous release so maybe I should take the time to see if there's any benefit to activating it early !)

Click to expand...

There is actually an easy way to see that it's true. Using the self timer function it's easy to see the dif and confirm the 2 modes. Set your self timer for 5 seconds. Now using your VR lens at a shutter speed 1/4 to 1/10th the focal length set VR to "on"...hand held. Point at a good target with lettering or the like and press the shutter release and let go. You will hear the VR motor start and see it work in the viewfinder. A second or so later you will hear the VR motor stop and see VR stop working in the view finder (That was VR pre-exposure mode starting and stopping). In a few seconds (as the timer continues) the shutter will release and a picture will be taken. Note that VR was not engaged and had stopped prior to the shutter releasing. Now do the exact same thing with the VR set to "off". The same thing will happen but you'll not see VR start initially.

Now compare the photos. In the first case, when VR had stopped working before the timer ran out, the pictures are sharper than the VR "off" pictures. The reason is that the second "exposure mode" VR kicked in as the mirror rose and did it's thing....all without the image being stabilized first. With all my Nikon VR lenses, there is no need to engage "pre-exposure" VR mode for pictures to be just as blur free as the pics were you wait for VR to stabilize.

Dennis said:

Definitely ! I wasn't trying to suggest that there was something unique to AF-ON that required this; only that I believed (maybe incorrectly) that the half press I'd use for focusing also gave the VR system a "head start" that provided some benefit.

Click to expand...

With Nikon VR there really is no benefit to a "head start" Other than the focus help to the operator
Good Luck and have a great day!

nfpotter said:

sshoihet said:

nfpotter said:

Sener said:

Auto ISO may be tricky as it uses the ISO presently set (while the Auto ISO is on) as the minimum ISO.

Also the max ISO setting might be too low to reach the desired shutter speed, as expressed above.

If the environment is dim, underexposing the shots a little, in order to gain shutter speed, would be a good idea since D7000 raw files provide good headrom in PP. You can push their exposure in the PP.

Click to expand...

You should never under-expose on purpose.

Click to expand...

Only if you're at base ISO. If it means that you have to raise the ISO to get the "correct" exposure, then you may be better off by under exposing and pushing in PP because the D7000 sensor is ISOless for all practical purposes.

Click to expand...

Not true at all. Under-exposure is the main cause of noise in digital photos, and while the D7K is very good at base ISO (low read noise), the same principle applies. I have shots there are noisy as hell at base ISO, I can show you if you like. And once you go over about ISO 400 or so, the D7K behaves much like any other digital camera, with regards to under-exposure and noise.

Click to expand...

It does not behave like just any other sensor, raising the ISO to achieve the "correct" exposure will result in as much noise as doing it in PP.

nfpotter said:

One should use ETTR for ALL digital phtography.

Click to expand...

ETTR is only useful if it means you don't have to raise the ISO. ETTR means capturing as much information/light as you can; increasing ISO does not let you capture more light.

sshoihet said:

nfpotter said:

sshoihet said:

nfpotter said:

Sener said:

Auto ISO may be tricky as it uses the ISO presently set (while the Auto ISO is on) as the minimum ISO.

Also the max ISO setting might be too low to reach the desired shutter speed, as expressed above.

If the environment is dim, underexposing the shots a little, in order to gain shutter speed, would be a good idea since D7000 raw files provide good headrom in PP. You can push their exposure in the PP.

Click to expand...

You should never under-expose on purpose.

Click to expand...

Only if you're at base ISO. If it means that you have to raise the ISO to get the "correct" exposure, then you may be better off by under exposing and pushing in PP because the D7000 sensor is ISOless for all practical purposes.

Click to expand...

Not true at all. Under-exposure is the main cause of noise in digital photos, and while the D7K is very good at base ISO (low read noise), the same principle applies. I have shots there are noisy as hell at base ISO, I can show you if you like. And once you go over about ISO 400 or so, the D7K behaves much like any other digital camera, with regards to under-exposure and noise.

Click to expand...

It does not behave like just any other sensor, raising the ISO to achieve the "correct" exposure will result in as much noise as doing it in PP.

Click to expand...

I didn't say it behaves like "any other sensor"; every sensor is different. I'll post a shot when I get home from work, so you can see what I'm talking about.

sshoihet said:

sshoihet said:

One should use ETTR for ALL digital phtography.

Click to expand...

ETTR is only useful if it means you don't have to raise the ISO. ETTR means capturing as much information/light as you can; increasing ISO does not let you capture more light.

Click to expand...

Obviously. However, it is still a useful principle to apply in general. Blocked shadows don't look so nice, either.

Pierre Sottas said:

The sensor of the D7000 has very low read noise at base ISO. Given the DXOMark results, I expect that the read noise remains fairly constant at all ISO. In other words, this means that the D7000 is an ISO less camera.

Click to expand...

nfpotter said:

I did a simple test to confirm this hypothesis. Here is an image taken at ISO6400 (with the 50 1.8 at f/8, 1/500):

Click to expand...

nfpotter said:

and here is an image taken at ISO100 (with the 50 1.8 at f/8, 1/500) with exposure pushed by 6.2 stops in RPP:

Click to expand...

nfpotter said:

The differences that we see between these two images must be weighted with the cons to shoot at ISO6400:

Click to expand...

nfpotter said:

6 stops lost in sensor DR;

Click to expand...

nfpotter said:

a file about 50% larger (here: 25.5M for ISO6400 vs 16.6M for ISO100).

Click to expand...

nfpotter said:

With today constant improvements in read noise, I expect that ISO will become a metadata in a near future.

Click to expand...

ETTR is one way to do things with pros and cons....ETTL is another with pros and con Neither always right or wrong

Will give it a try. My son's 8 but playing rep so I still need a shutter speed higher than 1/200 to stop them from blurring!

Been doing some research and will be experimenting to see if there is anything more I can do. Will be trying the manual mode with shutter set to 1/500. Well, maybe check what the shutter speed is in Aperture mode first at 2.8 and take it from there. Auto ISO maxed at 6400 just in case and the AF-ON will be a game time decision. Might try the 9 point AF which may speed up the AF from locking into a target.

Dennis said:

gordonkim said:

Dennis,

Just wondering how difficult you find shooting hockey with the AF-ON button in the back given the speed and pace of the sport?

Click to expand...

It took a short time to get used to it (I'd half-press the shutter release and wonder why it wasn't focusing !) After that, it's great. I have AF-C whenever I want it by holding the button (then press the shutter when ready - you have to remember to half-press early enough to let VR kick in but since I'm at 1/500s I shut VR off anyway). So I follow my daughter with my thumb pressing the button to track her then fire away. The 70-200/2.8 does a great job even if she's skating straight toward me (I shoot at practices from the players bench). Yesterday I was at a local town fair and using the 35/1.8 to shoot her and a friend on amusement park rides and the same method worked well for tracking a fast moving ride. My disclaimer is that I'm not shooting actual hockey games and the kids at age 9 aren't as fast as older kids & adults (but still surprisingly fast !) My daughter is in "hockey development" where they spend part of their time practicing and part playing a scrimmage. Still, I believe this "back button focus" is commonly used among sports photographers using either Nikon or Canon. The nice thing is I never need to switch from AF-C to AF-S. If I'm shooting a static subject, I just press the back button to achieve focus, then let it go. Focus is locked and I shoot when ready.

My only minor gripe is that the AEL/AFL button used for AF-ON is a bit of a stretch for my thumb. My previous camera was a Sony A700 which had an AF/MF toggle on the back that was located in a better spot. I believe the D300 (which I've never tried) has both an AEL and an AF button and maybe that button is better placed ? Again, it just took a little getting used to, but I wouldn't switch back.

• Dennis

--
Gallery at http://kingofthebeasts.smugmug.com

Click to expand...

Thanks for finding that, i didn't have the chance. I believe that the part about the increased DR at base ISO is not quite correct as you are not saturating the sensor.

nfpotter said:

Obviously. However, it is still a useful principle to apply in general. Blocked shadows don't look so nice, either.

Click to expand...

We're talking about shooting wide open with a fixed min shutter speed.

If you don't increase your exposure ie larger aperture and/or leave the shutter open longer, you aren't taking in any more light and your shadows aren't going to be any less blocked.

The goal of ETTR is to increase your SNR and take advantage of the increased tonal range farther to the right of the histogram. Increasing ISO does not accomplish that.

That's pretty convincing Thanks for taking the time to post those.

• Dennis

--
Gallery at http://kingofthebeasts.smugmug.com

sshoihet said:

nfpotter said:

Obviously. However, it is still a useful principle to apply in general. Blocked shadows don't look so nice, either.

Click to expand...

We're talking about shooting wide open with a fixed min shutter speed.

If you don't increase your exposure ie larger aperture and/or leave the shutter open longer, you aren't taking in any more light and your shadows aren't going to be any less blocked.

The goal of ETTR is to increase your SNR and take advantage of the increased tonal range farther to the right of the histogram. Increasing ISO does not accomplish that.

Click to expand...

Again, yes, obviously. You've missed the point entirely.