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Would you like to 717's succesor look like film-camera ?

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All I can say is WOW!
Ulysses said:
Poss said:
4. How about the digital rights management on a collective?
Click to expand...
Oh, that's no problem. You adopt a collective copyright system,
where WE ALL own the image. :-)
Member said:
5. How much sharing space would one get for photo storage?
Click to expand...
Mmmm.... now that might be a problem. When so much of your memory
and storage is allocated to subsystems that are designed for the
sole purpose of assimilation of other cultures and technologies,
there's not a lot of storage left over for low-priority stuff like
photos.

I suppose we could assimilate Slug and his pbase site. But what
would the charge be for a mass hive-mind usership? How do you
calculate that?

--

Ulysses
Click to expand...
--
Diamage 7hi, dc2100, ps7
 
Don Northup said:
And what about Michael Jackson is he making them
anything they can through into R&D.
Just kidding...
Click to expand...
That happened before. Before he became Diana Ross... :-)

--
Bogdan

Life is beautiful
 
hehehehe. He did bank a buck or two, and from what I understand Sony banked a bunch more. Until the Diana thing of course!

Man, can I spell or what. ( through into r&d.) I am suprised you even knew what I meant. Throw Throw Throw..... Must be my split keyboard, its wrecking my brain!

Don
Poss said:
Don Northup said:
And what about Michael Jackson is he making them
anything they can through into R&D.
Just kidding...
Click to expand...
That happened before. Before he became Diana Ross... :-)

--
Bogdan

Life is beautiful
Click to expand...
--
Diamage 7hi, dc2100, ps7
 
Don Northup said:
Film Shmelm. I realize that todays digital camera shape could be
designed around "digital" guts and not the old mechanical film
transport design. But if you did not have a big name company like
Sony behind a radically new shaped and designed product like that
of which you are proposing, it would never make it to market.
Click to expand...
You're mentioning the perfect contra argument of the above in a message just below - the betamax. It had Sony's considerable marketing muscle and market clout behind it, not to mention the fact it was a superior product but it still flopped with consummers.

The F series ain't nothing like that though. They don't have to establish a new format or anything (as it was in beta vs VHS war or in todays DVD-A vs SACD one). Their odd shape is due to a pretty good ergonomics study.
Don Northup said:
Advancing nothing. As other people have stated they won't even
touch the Sony because of its odd shape.
Click to expand...
It's a love or hate thing... Have you tried it?

You see the big Tokina AT-X 35-200mm I worked with on my old Pentax forced me to support the camera with my left hand, by gripping the lens while doing the focusing at the same time. As you can imagine I was accustomed having both hands on a camera when I tried the F717 ; it instantly felt natural and secure in my hands...

But hey! Each with its own.

The shape IS odd but if you hold it right I'm sure you'll like it.
Don Northup said:
Maybe we will see alot of
copycats of the Sony. Or will Sony start to copy the other "true"
camera makers out there first.
Click to expand...
You can look at this several ways. One of them is the following: Sony has way more experience with electronics than say Canon and Nikon combined. There's no denying that (Nikon uses Sony sensors in some of their digital lineup). "True" camera manufacturers held the upper hand where optics were concerned so Sony simply had his lens designed by Carl Zeiss.

The result of the two together is almost pure dynamite. I say almost because the Sony still misses a RAW mode. All the other shortcominngs are really not that important.

You see, the truth ain't all that easy to settle

--
Bogdan

Life is beautiful
 
Poss said:
You see, the truth ain't all that easy to settle
Click to expand...
No, it's not. And that's particularly true where there are so many different types of preferences. Another aspect of this, too, is that any one user's preferences can span quite a large range.

Seeing how Sony has not only had smashing success with the F-series, but has also covered their bases with an incredible assortment of camera series across the gamut of different user types (S-series, P-series, Mavicas) and let's not forget that they've created an entirely new user series with the CD-based cameras... it's no wonder that they dominate the market in the way they do. Generally speaking, they make cameras that people like to use. Even though with a given camera, some features might seem to be "missing".

--

Ulysses
 
Ulysses said:
Poss said:
You see, the truth ain't all that easy to settle
Click to expand...
No, it's not. And that's particularly true where there are so many
different types of preferences. Another aspect of this, too, is
that any one user's preferences can span quite a large range.

Seeing how Sony has not only had smashing success with the
F-series, but has also covered their bases with an incredible
assortment of camera series across the gamut of different user
types (S-series, P-series, Mavicas) and let's not forget that
they've created an entirely new user series with the CD-based
cameras... it's no wonder that they dominate the market in the way
they do. Generally speaking, they make cameras that people like to
use. Even though with a given camera, some features might seem to
be "missing".
Click to expand...
I just splurged on the F717. It ain't exactly cheap and I picked it up after VERY thorough field testing of all my final candidats (the D7i, G3 and 5700 included). I'm happy with my decision...

Now tell me why I keep looking at the S2 or the D100 with a melancholic look on my puppy wet eyes? :-)

Eh?

--
Bogdan

Life is beautiful
 
Poss,

I believe that higher end still frame cameras are different. They still are not sold widely at consumer electronics stores. In this regard I don't think that Sony has the experience or considerable market clout or high reputation that it holds in consumer electronics to push a whole new style of product to the top without alot of growing pains., and or changes.

I don't think they will convert as many old school film guys to Sony with the odd shape the f series has.It seems that Sony is hanging onto that old we are Sony and we can be different no matter what. Same format or not.

I agree, if you are used to a very long lense the Sony can feel OK. The ergonimic swivel thing is kind of cool and functional. I do love the flip up viewfinder on the D7hi however.

As far as componet level stuff goes the Minolta uses the same Sony imager. But as far as electronic experience goes the old camera manufacturers have been evolving onboard electronics for sometime exposure,focus, metering etc. They are not newbies to camera electronics. More experienced than Sony. Remember, Still Cameras, Not video.

For along time most all microwaves ovens had a toshiba magnetron. That of course did not mean that Toshiba built the best or most feature rich microwave. They may have been the most reliable though.

Agreed the truth sometimes, is hard to get to.

Don

.
Poss said:
Don Northup said:
Film Shmelm. I realize that todays digital camera shape could be
designed around "digital" guts and not the old mechanical film
transport design. But if you did not have a big name company like
Sony behind a radically new shaped and designed product like that
of which you are proposing, it would never make it to market.
Click to expand...
You're mentioning the perfect contra argument of the above in a
message just below - the betamax. It had Sony's considerable
marketing muscle and market clout behind it, not to mention the
fact it was a superior product but it still flopped with consummers.

The F series ain't nothing like that though. They don't have to
establish a new format or anything (as it was in beta vs VHS war or
in todays DVD-A vs SACD one). Their odd shape is due to a pretty
good ergonomics study.
Poss said:
Advancing nothing. As other people have stated they won't even
touch the Sony because of its odd shape.
Click to expand...
It's a love or hate thing... Have you tried it?

You see the big Tokina AT-X 35-200mm I worked with on my old Pentax
forced me to support the camera with my left hand, by gripping the
lens while doing the focusing at the same time. As you can imagine
I was accustomed having both hands on a camera when I tried the
F717 ; it instantly felt natural and secure in my hands...

But hey! Each with its own.

The shape IS odd but if you hold it right I'm sure you'll like it.
Poss said:
Maybe we will see alot of
copycats of the Sony. Or will Sony start to copy the other "true"
camera makers out there first.
Click to expand...
You can look at this several ways. One of them is the following:
Sony has way more experience with electronics than say Canon and
Nikon combined. There's no denying that (Nikon uses Sony sensors
in some of their digital lineup). "True" camera manufacturers held
the upper hand where optics were concerned so Sony simply had his
lens designed by Carl Zeiss.

The result of the two together is almost pure dynamite. I say
almost because the Sony still misses a RAW mode. All the other
shortcominngs are really not that important.

You see, the truth ain't all that easy to settle

--
Bogdan

Life is beautiful
Click to expand...
--
Diamage 7hi, dc2100, ps7
 
6. Using the camera for astrophotography can put a dent in both your neck and your sex life. On the flip side you can avoid star trails...

Hehehehe... I gotta stop doing this...

--
Bogdan

Life is beautiful
 
Do you really believe the Cd cameras were a good idea?

Don't you think that Sony's success is largely due to the loyal consumer electronics following they have?

I sold Sony and Sony people for 10 years. Most of them won't buy anthing but Sony even if the particular product is'nt anywhere near the best in it's class.

Thats Loyality

I am not saying th 717 isn't one of the best in its class, but at this point the class is still small. It is just not a post processor or a tweakers dream. But it is excellent at what it does.

And why don't they skip the expensive proprietery stuff?

Still searching for the truth,

Don
Ulysses said:
Poss said:
You see, the truth ain't all that easy to settle
Click to expand...
No, it's not. And that's particularly true where there are so many
different types of preferences. Another aspect of this, too, is
that any one user's preferences can span quite a large range.

Seeing how Sony has not only had smashing success with the
F-series, but has also covered their bases with an incredible
assortment of camera series across the gamut of different user
types (S-series, P-series, Mavicas) and let's not forget that
they've created an entirely new user series with the CD-based
cameras... it's no wonder that they dominate the market in the way
they do. Generally speaking, they make cameras that people like to
use. Even though with a given camera, some features might seem to
be "missing".

--

Ulysses
Click to expand...
--
Diamage 7hi, dc2100, ps7
 
Hmmm..

I have a bad neck and a slow sex life. It must of been the astrophotography, right? I did pick something up here...

Don
Poss said:
6. Using the camera for astrophotography can put a dent in both
your neck and your sex life. On the flip side you can avoid star
trails...

Hehehehe... I gotta stop doing this...

--
Bogdan

Life is beautiful
Click to expand...
--
Diamage 7hi, dc2100, ps7
 
Don Northup said:
Poss,

I believe that higher end still frame cameras are different. They
still are not sold widely at consumer electronics stores. In this
regard I don't think that Sony has the experience or considerable
market clout or high reputation that it holds in consumer
electronics to push a whole new style of product to the top without
alot of growing pains., and or changes.
Click to expand...
Ofcourse not.That would be silly. Remember though the F series is not exactly new either and the last incarnation is a pretty impressive camera.

OTOH The high end DSLR segment is most likely NOT Sony's target. They seem to do well with the (wealthy) "advanced" amateur (but not wealthy enough to plunge on the deep end). There's also a bunch of yuppies out there with a lot of disposable income, a desire to impress and less time on their hands to go beyond the "auto" mode. Do you know of any camera that would better fit the bill in this case?

The high end DSLR (as the high end audio) sells EXPENSIVE stuff to the discriminating people who actually know the difference (and how to use it).

You may never know. Sony pro video cams are holding an excellent reputation. Some of that may brush off on to the still area as well.
Don Northup said:
I don't think they will convert as many old school film guys to
Sony with the odd shape the f series has.It seems that Sony is
hanging onto that old we are Sony and we can be different no
matter what. Same format or not.
Click to expand...
I don't know what to think here Don. I may offend some people but I think this is rooted more in bigotry than in any reality based motivations.

I know, I was one of them. I considered the F series looks simply outrageous and a cry for attention without much technical foundation. I mean "It's a Sony" for God's sake. Boy was I in for a big surprise or what! The F717 was originally included in my list just because it had good reviews, a manual focus ring and Carl Zeiss lens (I used CZ optics gear during my military service and it was top quality, rugged stuff). I sincerely did NOT expect to find such a fine camera with such few faults when I tried it out. I had my eyes firmly on the 5700.
Don Northup said:
I agree, if you are used to a very long lense the Sony can feel OK.
The ergonimic swivel thing is kind of cool and functional. I do
love the flip up viewfinder on the D7hi however.
Click to expand...
I like that one too. That, a nice big top status display and the mechanically linked zoom ring make me seriously consider purchasing the D7i for my 74 year old father in law. The guy can't see the LCD without reading glasses wich kinda defeats the purpose...
Don Northup said:
As far as componet level stuff goes the Minolta uses the same Sony
imager. But as far as electronic experience goes the old camera
manufacturers have been evolving onboard electronics for sometime
exposure,focus, metering etc. They are not newbies to camera
electronics. More experienced than Sony. Remember, Still Cameras,
Not video.
Click to expand...
Not sure I agree. Video cameras have been the origin of still cameras. They too have to deal with exposure in difficult lighting conditions, WB and all that. Whoever makes pro video gear HAS to know a lot about capturing light. Why do you still feel this somehow "disqualifies" a video manufacturer from creating good still cameras?
Don Northup said:
Agreed the truth sometimes, is hard to get to.
Click to expand...
At least we agree on something. :-)

--
Bogdan

Life is beautiful
 
Poss said:
Don Northup said:
Poss,

I believe that higher end still frame cameras are different. They
still are not sold widely at consumer electronics stores. In this
regard I don't think that Sony has the experience or considerable
market clout or high reputation that it holds in consumer
electronics to push a whole new style of product to the top without
alot of growing pains., and or changes.
Click to expand...
Ofcourse not.That would be silly. Remember though the F series is
not exactly new either and the last incarnation is a pretty
impressive camera.

OTOH The high end DSLR segment is most likely NOT Sony's target.
They seem to do well with the (wealthy) "advanced" amateur (but not
wealthy enough to plunge on the deep end). There's also a bunch of
yuppies out there with a lot of disposable income, a desire to
impress and less time on their hands to go beyond the "auto" mode.
Do you know of any camera that would better fit the bill in this
case?
Click to expand...
Poss said:
You got me here.
Click to expand...
From my experience and fro my 47 million pages of research. I think you are right, everyone seems plesed with th P&S capabilities of the Sony.

The Minolta will not do the job as welll although I don't think that it was engineered for P&S and post processors.
Poss said:
The high end DSLR (as the high end audio) sells EXPENSIVE stuff to
the discriminating people who actually know the difference (and how
to use it).

You may never know. Sony pro video cams are holding an excellent
reputation. Some of that may brush off on to the still area as well.
Poss said:
I don't think they will convert as many old school film guys to
Sony with the odd shape the f series has.It seems that Sony is
hanging onto that old we are Sony and we can be different no
matter what. Same format or not.
Click to expand...
I don't know what to think here Don. I may offend some people but I
think this is rooted more in bigotry than in any reality based
motivations.

I know, I was one of them. I considered the F series looks simply
outrageous and a cry for attention without much technical
foundation. I mean "It's a Sony" for God's sake. Boy was I in for a
big surprise or what! The F717 was originally included in my list
just because it had good reviews, a manual focus ring and Carl
Zeiss lens (I used CZ optics gear during my military service and it
was top quality, rugged stuff). I sincerely did NOT expect to find
such a fine camera with such few faults when I tried it out. I had
my eyes firmly on the 5700.\
Click to expand...
I too, had my eye on the 5700 which unsold itself under more scrupulous review. I was not lucky enough to even to see, let alone touch a camera in during my time. I had my head in Rf gear constantly.Did we even have a camera on board? Maybe...
Poss said:
Poss said:
I agree, if you are used to a very long lense the Sony can feel OK.
The ergonimic swivel thing is kind of cool and functional. I do
love the flip up viewfinder on the D7hi however.
Click to expand...
I like that one too. That, a nice big top status display and the
mechanically linked zoom ring make me seriously consider purchasing
the D7i for my 74 year old father in law. The guy can't see the
LCD without reading glasses wich kinda defeats the purpose...
Poss said:
As far as componet level stuff goes the Minolta uses the same Sony
imager. But as far as electronic experience goes the old camera
manufacturers have been evolving onboard electronics for sometime
exposure,focus, metering etc. They are not newbies to camera
electronics. More experienced than Sony. Remember, Still Cameras,
Not video.
Click to expand...
Not sure I agree. Video cameras have been the origin of still
cameras. They too have to deal with exposure in difficult lighting
conditions, WB and all that. Whoever makes pro video gear HAS to
know a lot about capturing light. Why do you still feel this
somehow "disqualifies" a video manufacturer from creating good
still cameras?
Click to expand...
Poss said:
Boy, I was there when Video cameras hit big. VHS mainstream I mean, Sony was not the top nor were they a top seller.Thomson in the beginning, 2piece rigs, Then one piece monsters. Again Sony not in the lead. The oldS harp 12 to1 zoom busted everyone into long focal lengths and digital zooms. Then mini vhs-c once again Rca/Ge/whoever else people ledthe way however wrong it was. Then High 8 and if I remember correctly it was Cannon that dominated the early high 8. And now an allright camcorder is $399 and good digital camera is $1000. The resolutions are worlds apart as you know! So I really don't see Sony as the pioneer in camera tech. as you do. I do think Minolta, Nikon, and the others still have the advantage.
Click to expand...
Poss said:
Poss said:
Agreed the truth sometimes, is hard to get to.
Click to expand...
At least we agree on something. :-)
Click to expand...
absolutely!
Poss said:
--
Bogdan

Life is beautiful
Click to expand...
 
Don Northup said:
Do you really believe the Cd cameras were a good idea?
Click to expand...
I dunno. I'm no fan, but you'd need to ask the folks who use the CD-1000, the CD300, CD400 and other similar models. :-)

Not really a debate to me. Its popularity is what it is. I expect to see DVD models next. Easily. Sony has already introduced the DVD camcorder.
http://news.sel.sony.com/pressrelease/3146

The digicam can't be far behind. And it will sell, no doubt about it.
Don Northup said:
Don't you think that Sony's success is largely due to the loyal
consumer electronics following they have?
Click to expand...
I don't have any other Sony gear, and I'm sure it's similar with most. I don't have a Sony camera because of having a Sony CD player or a Sony whatever. I use it because it's a good camera. That's probably true of most here in this forum.
Don Northup said:
I sold Sony and Sony people for 10 years. Most of them won't buy
anthing but Sony even if the particular product is'nt anywhere near
the best in it's class.

Thats Loyality
Click to expand...
I don't disagree with that. However, you'll find that among the digicam users of Sony cameras, it's not about loyalty to other Sony products. It's about the camera on its own.
Don Northup said:
And why don't they skip the expensive proprietery stuff?
Click to expand...
Well, that's Sony. Always working out the Sony Solution. :-)

I don't fault them for that. It would certainly be easier if they got on the same bandwagon as most others. But it's just not their philosophy.

--

Ulysses
 
Poss said:
OTOH The high end DSLR segment is most likely NOT Sony's target.
Click to expand...
This is true. It always has been for the Sony digicam sales.

Sony would rather sell 100 cameras that cost an average of $500 than sell 10 cameras that cost $2000. The math rules here. Sony is interested in selling the most number of people possible the lowest common denominator that gives what the consumer wants: Great shots, some movies and a few tricks.

It's a great strategy. It's an enjoyable strategy for everybody. And the cameras have improved with each generation in production.

Sony knows where its dollar comes from. They have one of the best marketing and demographics departments on the planet.

--

Ulysses
 
Ulysses said:
Poss said:
OTOH The high end DSLR segment is most likely NOT Sony's target.
Click to expand...
This is true. It always has been for the Sony digicam sales.

Sony would rather sell 100 cameras that cost an average of $500
than sell 10 cameras that cost $2000. The math rules here. Sony is
interested in selling the most number of people possible the lowest
common denominator that gives what the consumer wants: Great shots,
some movies and a few tricks.
Click to expand...
Plus if they grab a significant part of the market they could easily push for a more spread MS adoption (just the very same way they tried with the 8mm format). Can you spell royalties? The CD format was by far their best milking cow to date.

If they can't push the MS successfuly they will at the very least lock the consumers (again) into a proprietary format to ensure future loyalty thru promised backward compatibillity (as they do with the Digital8 format).

However if they decide to have one of them MS slots in everything wearing a Sony badge, they have a pretty good chance at succeeding.

--
Bogdan

Life is beautiful
 
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