I used to say I'd never switch from film (mainly 35mm but sometimes 6x4.5 or 6x6) to digital. But I did. And to a small sensor at that, the Panny LX3. I'm not now nor ever have been a professional but always thought 35mm Nikon was the King of the Heap, pro or amateur. Since having the LX3 I've changed my tune. (Never too late to become humble.) Amateurs don't need DSLRs. Period. They can use them but I firmly believe one can get comparable image quality for personal prints (not for pro sales) or internet usage with small(er) sensored digital gear. The holy grail quest for ideal image quality was just another form or ego feeding for me. Though your mileage/kilometerage mauy vary. Small is beautiful. Less is more.
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Going without a DSLR?
- Thread starter GeraldW
- Start date
Vandyu
Veteran Member
ROTFLMAO! Sorry, Gerald, I just couldn't resist. Maybe there needs to be a rehab program for owners of DSLRs who simply cannot resist the siren song of these addictive cameras. Hope you enjoy that Canon and please keep the FZ150. There also needs to be a program for the addictive FZ series. I should know! I kept coming back from my FZ20 days until I found one that I really liked--the 150.
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Are you ready to make someone's day a little brighter?
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Are you ready to make someone's day a little brighter?
Juggernaut122
Leading Member
Hi Jerry.
Do you like the zs15 better than the sx230?
I am trying to decide between the two cameras.
The main problem is no stores seem to carry them so it would be an online purchase without any in-store testing - which makes me very nervous.
I too am concerned about the CA.
Would you say the zs15 images are more sharp than the sx230?
Are images overall better with the zs15?
In one review of the zs15 they said the white balance was far off in low light - have you found this to be true?
If so, is it easy to correct with camera settings?
Thanks!
Juggernaut
M
Mike Wrob
Guest
Just curious to hear from the serious users of compact cameras. Everyone seems to be very interested in as much manual control as possible. Since all compacts now have scene modes and most have exposure compensation and white balance adjustment, I'm wondering how often you run across a shooting situation that can't be handled using these options? In other words, is extensive manual control all that necessary for a point & shoot camera?
John Miles
Veteran Member
I think that scene modes are simply the modern face of manual control. You can over expose manually off in camera metering, bump up the EV a few notches in program mode, or select snow scene. It's all the same in the end.
The small sensors are less forgiving and require more accurate marshalling of image parameters to get the shot. At extremes of camera performance slightly more can always be achieved by going to manual and wringing the last ounce of performance out of it. School fashion catwalks are beyond my FZ50, but it doesn't stop me trying. A manual setting of F2.8 1/10sec means prey for the IS to work and pan with the model as accurately as possible. Sometimes I get the shot.
Manual control is very important to have for those who have learnt how to use it and understand what the controls do. Most people these days don't even know that the graduations between all shutter speed, aperture and sensor speed settings represent a doubling of light, let alone about exchanging stops of light between image parameters to achieve different results whilst gathering the same amount of light during the exposure. But manual control is still there to tinker with, and the modern camera has that capacity for instant playback so you can check how you're doing. All great fun.
So yes I think full manual control is necessary on a point and shoot; possibly more so than on a more forgiving large sensor camera. In fact I am waiting for the day when manual control of image stacking becomes available. I'd like to select overall exposure time, 1/60 say, and set how many exposures to fit in that time, say 6 x 1/500.
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The FZ50: DSLR handling of a bright Leica 35-420mm lens that's this good: http://www.flickr.com/groups/panasonicfz50/pool/ (slideshow always good). And now add the LX2: http://www.flickr.com/groups/lx2/pool/show/
[Tomorrows camera is better and smaller than todays]
The small sensors are less forgiving and require more accurate marshalling of image parameters to get the shot. At extremes of camera performance slightly more can always be achieved by going to manual and wringing the last ounce of performance out of it. School fashion catwalks are beyond my FZ50, but it doesn't stop me trying. A manual setting of F2.8 1/10sec means prey for the IS to work and pan with the model as accurately as possible. Sometimes I get the shot.
Manual control is very important to have for those who have learnt how to use it and understand what the controls do. Most people these days don't even know that the graduations between all shutter speed, aperture and sensor speed settings represent a doubling of light, let alone about exchanging stops of light between image parameters to achieve different results whilst gathering the same amount of light during the exposure. But manual control is still there to tinker with, and the modern camera has that capacity for instant playback so you can check how you're doing. All great fun.
So yes I think full manual control is necessary on a point and shoot; possibly more so than on a more forgiving large sensor camera. In fact I am waiting for the day when manual control of image stacking becomes available. I'd like to select overall exposure time, 1/60 say, and set how many exposures to fit in that time, say 6 x 1/500.
--
The FZ50: DSLR handling of a bright Leica 35-420mm lens that's this good: http://www.flickr.com/groups/panasonicfz50/pool/ (slideshow always good). And now add the LX2: http://www.flickr.com/groups/lx2/pool/show/
[Tomorrows camera is better and smaller than todays]
M
Mike Wrob
Guest
I'm sorry, I should have phrased it differently. I meant a pocket point and shoot. I realize the FZ50 and similar models are point and shoot, I just don't think of them that way. I'm thinking for a pocket camera, the manual controls sound good for people used to DSLRs and bridge cameras, but I wonder how much they really are needed.
John Miles
Veteran Member
Everything I said applies as much to my LX2 and my FZ50, though I see where you are coming from.
In a pocket cam manual controls need not be so important. All you are going to do is miss the odd shot here and there. But you should appreciate and decide on whether or not you would like to have the full PASM setup on your camera. For example setting shutter priority to a manageable speed in low light does allow the camera to play with the rest of the parameters to keep the shots rolling in. Generally though I talk about the more expensive cameras, since with pocket cameras you can easily buy one that only operates off a few (sometimes just two) apertures.
This sentence inserted after a rant detection alert. Only read on if you're in the mood
Most people I see use pocket cameras change nothing in settings from the moment it comes out of the bag until the time it is put away again. A lot of camera design is therefore about presenting camera settings in as user friendly a way as possible. And until very recently that was no more than batching manual camera settings under an icon depicting a typical use of the settings. Today though that has all changed. The BSI CMOS sensor has leapt to the fore with incredible image stacking capacities that provide no end of new features far beyond the remit of the manual camera. For example give me and my PASM camera the task of removing a person walking in front of my scene completely from the shot and I'd be on a non starter.
To this day the most critical control on any camera is exposure value. This should be quick and easy to change. New cameras are coming out with advanced scene control, but not all cameras have it yet. Face recognition now allows a camera to cope with backlight difficulties, since it now has some idea what you are wanting to capture. These new advances are the first true steps beyond simply metering to 18% grey at 0 EV and the user having to crank the setting either way given the humans greater grasp of the composition.
There will come a time soon when GPS, compass, face recognition etc. and tourist information will combine to set your camera for you. You will be stood at sunset with an Egyptian pyramid in mid field and your companion in the foreground, and your camera will communicate with the ether and be set by the combined knowledge of many of the best photographers on Earth. Your camera will be able to download the David Bailey App, or the National Geographic App. Instantly your camera will link to the ever increasing database of who has taken what before from the spot you are standing in, and what setting your camera needs to have to benefit from all this prior experience.
Good lord my phone knows the phase of the moon already! How long before its camera works out where I am, what direction I'm facing, where the Sun is, the weather, what time of day it is, and whether the person in front of me is someone I know; or needs a hair cut? From that information it will soon not need to take the photo at all. It will just compose the desired image from Google database images and previous captures of the family. This was available in the past. It was called buying postcards. ;-)
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The FZ50: DSLR handling of a bright Leica 35-420mm lens that's this good: http://www.flickr.com/groups/panasonicfz50/pool/ (slideshow always good). And now add the LX2: http://www.flickr.com/groups/lx2/pool/show/
[Tomorrows camera is better and smaller than todays]
In a pocket cam manual controls need not be so important. All you are going to do is miss the odd shot here and there. But you should appreciate and decide on whether or not you would like to have the full PASM setup on your camera. For example setting shutter priority to a manageable speed in low light does allow the camera to play with the rest of the parameters to keep the shots rolling in. Generally though I talk about the more expensive cameras, since with pocket cameras you can easily buy one that only operates off a few (sometimes just two) apertures.
This sentence inserted after a rant detection alert. Only read on if you're in the mood
Most people I see use pocket cameras change nothing in settings from the moment it comes out of the bag until the time it is put away again. A lot of camera design is therefore about presenting camera settings in as user friendly a way as possible. And until very recently that was no more than batching manual camera settings under an icon depicting a typical use of the settings. Today though that has all changed. The BSI CMOS sensor has leapt to the fore with incredible image stacking capacities that provide no end of new features far beyond the remit of the manual camera. For example give me and my PASM camera the task of removing a person walking in front of my scene completely from the shot and I'd be on a non starter.
To this day the most critical control on any camera is exposure value. This should be quick and easy to change. New cameras are coming out with advanced scene control, but not all cameras have it yet. Face recognition now allows a camera to cope with backlight difficulties, since it now has some idea what you are wanting to capture. These new advances are the first true steps beyond simply metering to 18% grey at 0 EV and the user having to crank the setting either way given the humans greater grasp of the composition.
There will come a time soon when GPS, compass, face recognition etc. and tourist information will combine to set your camera for you. You will be stood at sunset with an Egyptian pyramid in mid field and your companion in the foreground, and your camera will communicate with the ether and be set by the combined knowledge of many of the best photographers on Earth. Your camera will be able to download the David Bailey App, or the National Geographic App. Instantly your camera will link to the ever increasing database of who has taken what before from the spot you are standing in, and what setting your camera needs to have to benefit from all this prior experience.
Good lord my phone knows the phase of the moon already! How long before its camera works out where I am, what direction I'm facing, where the Sun is, the weather, what time of day it is, and whether the person in front of me is someone I know; or needs a hair cut? From that information it will soon not need to take the photo at all. It will just compose the desired image from Google database images and previous captures of the family. This was available in the past. It was called buying postcards. ;-)
--
The FZ50: DSLR handling of a bright Leica 35-420mm lens that's this good: http://www.flickr.com/groups/panasonicfz50/pool/ (slideshow always good). And now add the LX2: http://www.flickr.com/groups/lx2/pool/show/
[Tomorrows camera is better and smaller than todays]
Erik Ohlson
Forum Pro
I think I know "where you are coming from", as the saying goes.
The thing with manual controls on a pocket camera, is that the controls don't really act like they do with larger sensor cameras.
Coming, myself, from the 4x5" film era, when it was said that 35mm was too small for manual focus and such, I was raised on manipulating depth of field with Aperture settings. That just doesn't happen to any useable extent with a 1/233 (6.08x4.56mm) sensor and a wide angle ("24mm equivalent") lens, that's basically ALL DOF!
What Aperture control with these tiny lenses, is, is controlling diffraction by keeping the lens wide open . Any stopdown is plunging deep into diffraction territory.
Shutter control is all about stopping subject movement - the amazingly effective O.I.S. of today's cameras takes care of camera motion. I use shutter priority only for shooting tiny wildflowers which always seem to find enough wind to jump around
I suppose I'd use it for car racing & such, too, but I haven't been to a car race in about 50 years. Got some decent panned shots of Graham Hill, back in the day 
I got my ZS6 (ZS7 without GPS) for just the reasons stated above, and have continued with my ZS19 (ZS20 without GPS) for the same reasons plus smaller size, and greater zoom. My camera criteria are mostly led by wanting a very pocketable camera, with as much zoom and IQ as possible, since I use the camera as a general "notebook" and "recording telescope" as well as what are usually thought of a "camera" functions.
I usually leave the focus on "Spot Focus" because the little square focus spot allows me to center on something in the distance and zoom in on it - it's almost impossible to find anything when the camera is at 20x zoom.
Bearing in mind that Manual Controls are - in effect - different on these tiny optics, I prefer the manual controls, although the many "scene" controls do the job too.
It's just difficult to figure out what is actually being controlled with "Scenes".
-Erik
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DP Review Supporter.
'He who hesitates is not only lost - he's miles from the next Exit.'
http://www.flickr.com/ohlsonmh/ [email protected]
M
Mike Wrob
Guest
I agree on the aperture priority. Most pocket cameras have a pretty narrow range of aperture settings to choose from, especially when zoomed, so aperture priority seems kind of superfluous.
When you need a fast shutter speed, I would assume choosing the sports scene mode should give you that. So your covered there. Getting to a slow shutter speed seems a little less straightforward because the camera normally adjusts iso as well as shutter speed. Although it seems a little more common to be able to set a max iso.
They all seem to have exposure compensation of at least 2 stops either direction, so that gives you a fair amount of control if you don't like what the camera is doing.
I'm thinking about a new pocket camera and I'm just looking for a little affirmation of my thought process. Image quality, small size, and decent zoom are highest on my list. Manual controls are pretty far down because you should be able to tweak the camera settings when necessary to get the kind of shot you want. Within the limitations of the camera itself, of course.
I have a Canon S100 that I like quite a bit, I'd just like a bit more zoom.
When you need a fast shutter speed, I would assume choosing the sports scene mode should give you that. So your covered there. Getting to a slow shutter speed seems a little less straightforward because the camera normally adjusts iso as well as shutter speed. Although it seems a little more common to be able to set a max iso.
They all seem to have exposure compensation of at least 2 stops either direction, so that gives you a fair amount of control if you don't like what the camera is doing.
I'm thinking about a new pocket camera and I'm just looking for a little affirmation of my thought process. Image quality, small size, and decent zoom are highest on my list. Manual controls are pretty far down because you should be able to tweak the camera settings when necessary to get the kind of shot you want. Within the limitations of the camera itself, of course.
I have a Canon S100 that I like quite a bit, I'd just like a bit more zoom.
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