Another pro photographer with no business sense

The bottom line is that we had this post here alleging that "traditional photographers are not willing to fulfill a niche". What's the niche? Basically, customers who don't want to pay "hundreds of dollars".

Turns out, though, that in order to fulfill that niche, you have to be a tax cheat, and operate outside other areas beyond the law and perhaps ethics, too.

And so, we come full circle. Yes, you are indeed right. "Traditional photographers" as I know them are not "willing" to fulfill that niche'.

pdqgp said:

However, what's happening in the market is the influx of newbs into the market who vary on skill level are filling a niche that the public has been asking for but traditionally photog are not willing to fufil. Plain and simple, times are changing, a market is expanding and work is out there, but the traditionals have no interest in it and are blaming their lack of willingness to change and pursue this new market on others.

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pdqgp said:

IMO, there is a place for for someone who just wants some casual shots to pass onto family and not pay hundreds of dollars for them. Hate me, but I've been fiilling that niche in my area for 5 years now. I'm not "cheap" but I'm certainly not charging what those who are by far more skilled and full time are either.

I'm not stealing business from anyone as it's business they aren't interest in to begin with.
--

Note my new Screen Name has changed due to some privacy issues I was having to deal with, but I'm the same old long time member. Email or Message me anytime though.

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Michael Thomas Mitchell said:

The bottom line is that we had this post here alleging that "traditional photographers are not willing to fulfill a niche". What's the niche? Basically, customers who don't want to pay "hundreds of dollars".

Turns out, though, that in order to fulfill that niche, you have to be a tax cheat, and operate outside other areas beyond the law and perhaps ethics, too.

And so, we come full circle. Yes, you are indeed right. "Traditional photographers" as I know them are not "willing" to fulfill that niche'.

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You're good at making your point in internet banter when baited and hooked by a forum member to see how far you really do go when not focusing on the issues at hand. You go all the way as do many others. Way further OT than I thought you would. It was fun, but it's time to get back OT

No the real bottom line is you will make whatever excuse there is to blame someone else but when the market of business coming to you is down. All that yet to still fail to realize that people buy when they see value and that as great as you all are in your own right, not everyone will go with you when there now exists another avenue of greater value to them in their own eyes.

pdqgp said:

Phileas Fogg said:

pdqgp said:

Michael Thomas Mitchell said:

Actually, we DO know how you run your business... you don't pay taxes. Did I misread that somewhere?

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so that alone tells you everything? So in contrast you do run everyting by Uncle Sam's books so you must be the very best in your field.

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Not to speak for Michael, odds are he endeavours to stay within the law. His accountant probably helps keep him there. I'd assume by his posts here that he does not knowingly violate tax laws be they federal, state or city. But say for discussion ( ONLY FOR DISCUSSION NO INSINUATIONS ON MY PART!) he did fudge his taxes, or even if he was a massive tax avoidance type it still does not excuse your almost championing the fact you fail at paying your lawful taxes.

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Let it go man....you're so far OT it's ridiculous......again, focus on your business. I've provided so much good input and examples here yet no one focuses on that which important.

Either you all take the internet WAY to seriously or you really do have a seriously hard time seeing the real issues with the economy, how your business plays in and what is really impacting you

--

• tim

--

Note my new Screen Name has changed due to some privacy issues I was having to deal with, but I'm the same old long time member. Email or Message me anytime though.

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Your advice offers NO LONG TERM SUCCESS for any photographer who wants to make a credible and lawful living at it. You only speak to try to validate your unethical and illegal actions. I'm calling you out, and you don't like it. No amount of twisting on your part will change that.

That said you will likely keep on doing unethical business actions and illegal ones too. You will continue to have real businesses look down upon you though. You will not get ONE credible pro to support you and your words here, but only others who think like you to jump in with you on your USS TAX LAW AVOIDANCE, UNETHICAL BUSINESS PRACTICES ship.

You look here to have no interest in being educated to be a more ethical and credible business pro. But what gets me and likely most of us is you peddle this bad advice to other newbies and that is a problem here.

One day though you may get caught up in the legal bureaucracy of the tax man be he the IRS, state or local bureaucrats and then you will hear from me and others here "We told you so."

Phileas Fogg said:

Why are you having difficulty in following my points? It is NOT about what and where tax dollars are spent or how much tax dollars may be wasted. It's that you knowing are in violation of the law (likely numerous laws and by-laws). You know it but could not give a damn. I say for one you certainly are happy for any and all govt. services provided to you directly and indirectly. But you are willing to circumvent tax laws. You will likely scream like stuck pig if a service is hampered or denied to you but you do not want to pay your lawful share (see I did not say fair share as in that is subjective to opinion, but your lawful share). Next, your circumvention of tax laws do cost all tax payers more and also sees you are operating anti-competitively to a photographer who follows the law. Following the law should not see one being punished by those who do not. GOT IT!?!

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we're so far OT it's not relevant any more.

Suntan said:

This constant whinging about all the shade tree photographers not playing by the rules reminds me of a scene in one of the episodes in “Game of Thrones.” After a duel, as the winner was walking away, one of the spectators claimed indignantly, “But you didn’t fight honorably!” To which the victor/survivor replied back rather flatly while pointing at the dead corps, “Yeah but he did.”

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spot on accurate and funny

Phileas Fogg said:

MWAC types (shade tree type as you note) are NOT credible pros in general.

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Okay, you can have that point if it makes you and the others throwing sand feel better. Again, how you classify others isn't what deems them successful or credible. That criteria only applies to those who sign off on it and obviously the shade tree photogs and the clients paying them don't.

Phileas Fogg said:

They by their often lack of ability, understanding and such they sell short their clients even if they are whoring their photography out. Now certainly some MWAC types are good but then should they not receiver a better education and thus possibly turning their apparent good skills into a more credible business?

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I'm glad to hear you say not all shade tree's are bad....but in reality, many do go to have a larger business but even if they don't create what you consider a credible viable business, quit worrying about them. What are you doing to sustain your business? I'm still reading a lot about slow business and it's everybody else's fault.

Phileas Fogg said:

If the real skilled pros all just toss in the towel then the public who want or are open to being educated to get better photography values will have NO CHOICE THEN!

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Some very skilled pros will just like in all businesses. Most bookstores are gone as are mom and pop restaurants, but the ones who know how to tough it out and run a viable business by focusing on their own business will stay and do quite well.

--
-tim

Phileas Fogg said:

Your advice offers NO LONG TERM SUCCESS for any photographer who wants to make a credible and lawful living at it. You only speak to try to validate your unethical and illegal actions. I'm calling you out, and you don't like it. No amount of twisting on your part will change that.

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Really? So my insight on networking, connecting with the client, marketing yourself instead of worrying about your neighbor who you don't think should wield a camera has no viability? WOW.....perhaps you should come travel with me to see what I can do. I'll tell you what I won't do is complain about the competition and whatever they do good bad or ugly. I make my own hay and worry about what needs done. Funny, you're calling me out when in fact you're one of the ones here ranting about others and all that's happening to you because of them. Funny. Let's see how many more banters you get into regarding the impact of the armchair photographers and the demise they are causing to the professionals.

Phileas Fogg said:

That said you will likely keep on doing unethical business actions and illegal ones too. You will continue to have real businesses look down upon you though. You will not get ONE credible pro to support you and your words here, but only others who think like you to jump in with you on your USS TAX LAW AVOIDANCE, UNETHICAL BUSINESS PRACTICES ship.

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I have no interest in getting anyone here to jump in with me on anything that I do that they don't want to do. Not my style. I would lay odds more here than you might think aren't as straight as you might believe and will continue to not say a word. Why would they, they continue to focus on being liked here in the pro forum which is why so many clamor around the bandwagon of "shade tree's" like a band of blood thirsty Indians.

Phileas Fogg said:

You look here to have no interest in being educated to be a more ethical and credible business pro. But what gets me and likely most of us is you peddle this bad advice to other newbies and that is a problem here.

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Have you ever asked me one question related to why I am here ? As that little kid says in the U-verse commercial " you talk a lot ". You like to come across as billy bad butt on his almighty horse likely educating and preaching to your clients. Do you ever ask them questions? Makes me wonder.

Phileas Fogg said:

One day though you may get caught up in the legal bureaucracy of the tax man be he the IRS, state or local bureaucrats and then you will hear from me and others here "We told you so."

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That last part of your sentence tells the truth about who you are too you know. You like to hear youself say things like that too I bet. What gets me is the above and lots else here is what you seem to peddle as good advice to other newbies.

Heaven forbid you engage or ask questions. I'll have to back and count if you ever did anything but spew. I don't think you have. As Russel Crow once proclaimed "the time for honoring yourself will soon be at an end" Perhaps sooner if you don't figure out how to sustain a slowing economy.

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-tim

Suntan said:

Phileas Fogg said:

Would not bettering them as photographers and as business people not be a worthy thing?

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Sorry, you lost me amongst the claims for nobility when you continually call them by a derogatory acronym. The genuine desire to help them seems to be more than a little lacking.

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haha...funny I just posted something along the lines of the above about him a moment ago. He talks a lot and carries an air of nobility about him. Creative worlds are so fun to be a part of......makes you wonder why business is gravitating away from so many.

Suntan said:

Suntan said:

But should real skilled pros not endeavour to educate and sell the value of good photography, service and products?

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By all means! That would be a good use of this forum, and every once in a blue moon a topic like that actually gets started. Unfortunately, it quickly gets drowned by silly posts making fun of Craigslist, or rehashing the $10 plumber joke (honestly, how many times a week does that get mentioned around here?) and let’s not forget everyone’s favorite; the endless posts complaining about the unreasonable brides that have the audacity to ask the photographer for something specific.

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The jokes and humor are bullying attitudes. Like the band of kids huddled around the new guy poking fun and engaging in hazing shrouded in humor.

Suntan said:

So yeah, I see effort in educating people about the value of photography as much more useful effort than just sitting around complaining. But even then, I see it as efforting against the inevitable for most photographers.

Personally, I see a future where the vast majority of people prefer to have their events, activities, weddings, etc. shot with less skill for less cost. Further, I see that in the near future, as in, starting already.

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I agree. The pros here and as many know them aren't gone, but they are certainly being pushed to alter their style and business practices or face extinction. Heaven forbid they listen to anyone with a thought though. Especially if they are weekend warrior or one that can hook them so easily.

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-tim

Phileas Fogg said:

What terms should I use? They are often Moms With Automatic Cameras. They are often other newbies with little to no skills and business sense. They are often Shade Tree types sliding unreported income into cookie jars and/or mad money?

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You know I'm good with Shade Tree Photographer. I kinda like it. I call myself and armchair quarterback when I play with my kids so why not. You have no idea about the skills of others or their business sense and believe all that you read on the internet and love to talk but not listen so yeah, why not.

Phileas Fogg said:

All too often these types bash the real successful pro's advice. They think they know it all even before they start. Successful business persons try and yes at times by being hard a$$es on them to give them advice. But no to often these people I noted above PI$$ on any advice? Then they wonder why the successful pro and business persons who cut his/her teeth get ticked off.

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Really, so are you telling them all this advice or are you asking them where they might need help or have an interest in learning more? Side note, have you ever coached a team? It doesn't appear so.

So in the end after all this great insight and knowlege from the pros you have come to a conclusion that all to often "these types" just don't "get it". Hmmmm...ever wonder if it's all those people or perhaps the other way around?

Phileas Fogg said:

Yes, most pros here need to cut back the time they seemingly waste on this stuff. But there are times and places to give opinions, to vent and often some sage advice to these MWAC's, other newbies, and shade tree types and in a hope that they LEARN before they go off half cocked so to speak.

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Just curious what MWAC's stands for. I can figure it out to mean armchair photogs or something derogatory, but humor me. I'll be honest, I've not seen too much sage advice being given in this forum and then see the response as people going off half cocked. Me thinks if that really is the case, it's likely the delivery not the receiver.

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-tim

Phileas Fogg said:

pdqgp said:

Phileas Fogg said:

pdqgp said:

Michael Thomas Mitchell said:

Actually, we DO know how you run your business... you don't pay taxes. Did I misread that somewhere?

Click to expand...

so that alone tells you everything? So in contrast you do run everyting by Uncle Sam's books so you must be the very best in your field.

Click to expand...

Not to speak for Michael, odds are he endeavours to stay within the law. His accountant probably helps keep him there. I'd assume by his posts here that he does not knowingly violate tax laws be they federal, state or city. But say for discussion ( ONLY FOR DISCUSSION NO INSINUATIONS ON MY PART!) he did fudge his taxes, or even if he was a massive tax avoidance type it still does not excuse your almost championing the fact you fail at paying your lawful taxes.

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Let it go man....you're so far OT it's ridiculous......again, focus on your business. I've provided so much good input and examples here yet no one focuses on that which important.

Either you all take the internet WAY to seriously or you really do have a seriously hard time seeing the real issues with the economy, how your business plays in and what is really impacting you

--

• tim

--

Note my new Screen Name has changed due to some privacy issues I was having to deal with, but I'm the same old long time member. Email or Message me anytime though.

Click to expand...

Your advice offers NO LONG TERM SUCCESS for any photographer who wants to make a credible and lawful living at it. You only speak to try to validate your unethical and illegal actions. I'm calling you out, and you don't like it. No amount of twisting on your part will change that.

That said you will likely keep on doing unethical business actions and illegal ones too. You will continue to have real businesses look down upon you though. You will not get ONE credible pro to support you and your words here, but only others who think like you to jump in with you on your USS TAX LAW AVOIDANCE, UNETHICAL BUSINESS PRACTICES ship.

You look here to have no interest in being educated to be a more ethical and credible business pro. But what gets me and likely most of us is you peddle this bad advice to other newbies and that is a problem here.

One day though you may get caught up in the legal bureaucracy of the tax man be he the IRS, state or local bureaucrats and then you will hear from me and others here "We told you so."

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You speak the truth, indeed.

Yes, I saw that one, too. Great series and a truly excellent moment.

Of course, it was a movie, and a very fantastical one at that... not exactly good stuff to be basing one's ethics upon. I think John Hinkley was similarly impressed by DeNiro's Taxi Driver, and James Holmes Batman's Joker.

pdqgp said:

Suntan said:

This constant whinging about all the shade tree photographers not playing by the rules reminds me of a scene in one of the episodes in “Game of Thrones.” After a duel, as the winner was walking away, one of the spectators claimed indignantly, “But you didn’t fight honorably!” To which the victor/survivor replied back rather flatly while pointing at the dead corps, “Yeah but he did.”

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spot on accurate and funny

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An old friend of mine one told me that if he did not have about 20% of his possible customers walk away because his price was too high, then he wasn't charging enough.

Lets just make it as local as possible, OK?

You have a local police dept. They officers get paid, they buy police cars and gas to run them.
Say it costs $150k a year to fund this department.

If you town has 20,000 people paying taxes then each pays $7.50 towards the police dept.

If say, 1000 people decide to cheat the system by not paying their taxes one of two things are gonna happen - either the PD gets $7500 less to spend or those that do pay taxes have to now pay $7.89 each.
We all get the same benefit - only not all of us are paying for it.

That's theft, plain and simple.

On such a small example that's only 39c, but looking at federal, state and local it adds up to a more sizable figure. Sales tax isn't something you pay - you collect it for the government and pass it along. So there's really no reason not to do so, is there? I'll probably collect and hand over over $5k in sales tax this year.

pdqgp said:

Phileas Fogg said:

I agree with you 100%.

Debating what and where tax dollars are spent is fair and open but just not here in this forum. Those who feel though that it's ok to cheat from paying taxes be they rich, middle or even lower incomes are not being not proper, as you said steal from each of us and such is criminal.

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I don't see what the business of how people deal with their taxes is stealing from others. If you really think our tax dollars are well spent and are so very open to giving up every penny of what the states and feds take and demand of you and enjoy bending over and saying "thank you sir, may I have another" God Bless You. Not me and I don't feel a dang bit guilty for it.

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If you don't like how the money is spent then go lobby your congressman. Refusing to pay your taxes isn't the way to get the system changed.

You are cheating at the 'game' of business - and don't seem to care.

I can infer from that behavior that you have lower morals than most of us and would just as quickly cheat your customers - out of money or qualty photography with a second thought.

It's obvious that you don't care about the industry you claim to be part of - you fail to see the cause of all the established studios and photogs failing and refuse to admit your part in it.

I know a number of studios that could stay in business if they would avoid paying taxes and following other laws that are costly (having legit employees, paying workers comp insurance for them, paying the employer part of FICA and UC, paying for the accounting needed to make this all work, etc).

pdqgp said:

Phileas Fogg said:

Why are you having difficulty in following my points? It is NOT about what and where tax dollars are spent or how much tax dollars may be wasted. It's that you knowing are in violation of the law (likely numerous laws and by-laws). You know it but could not give a damn. I say for one you certainly are happy for any and all govt. services provided to you directly and indirectly. But you are willing to circumvent tax laws. You will likely scream like stuck pig if a service is hampered or denied to you but you do not want to pay your lawful share (see I did not say fair share as in that is subjective to opinion, but your lawful share). Next, your circumvention of tax laws do cost all tax payers more and also sees you are operating anti-competitively to a photographer who follows the law. Following the law should not see one being punished by those who do not. GOT IT!?!

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we're so far OT it's not relevant any more.

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Before everything else, getting ready is the secret of success. -Henry Ford

Many want to blame the explosion of newbie part time photogs for the current situation the industy is in, and to a degree they are at fault.

Nikon's ashton kucher ads touting that anyone can be a pro with a $500 nikon doesn't help much either.

Who's idea was it to hand over the files instead of product? Not the old photogs that valued negatives (often beyond any reason). It's the newbies. That changed a lot of the economics/biz model of the industry.

PJ wedding 'style' didn't do pro's any favors either.

Capable cameras that allow any schlub to get a properly exposed and in-focus image and shoot natural light (via high iso) changed it too.

that LCD on the back of the camera is repsonsible too. Easy to fix an error and learn quickly.

The internet is surely a conspirator in all this, allowing anyone to be on level footing, marketing wise, with everyone else.

FB and CL too - free advertising. Used to be you'd pay for ads in the paper and that's not cheap.

Adobe should share some responsibility too- photoshop (and LR, etc) allow you to get close enough on exposure, wb and the like and fix it later.

Maybe photogs didn't change, or change fast enough or in the right direction. I can tell you some things in the market have changed soooo quickly there is no way to keep pace in some cases. If you've booked 20 weddings a year for 20 years and this year you booked 5...there is no way to predict that one. And once it happens what do you change to counter it? Your prices, product, style, marketing...? Guess wrong and you may be out of business before you can guess again.
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Before everything else, getting ready is the secret of success. -Henry Ford

Photomonkey, your posts in this thread show real wisdom and business sense. Thanks!

Photomonkey said:

That is fine but don't suggest that pros are being arrogant in avoiding situations that they recognize as time sucks with no return .

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PenguinPhotoCo said:

You are cheating at the 'game' of business - and don't seem to care.

I can infer from that behavior that you have lower morals than most of us and would just as quickly cheat your customers - out of money or qualty photography with a second thought.

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You would be wrong the moment you infer'd....

PenguinPhotoCo said:

It's obvious that you don't care about the industry you claim to be part of - you fail to see the cause of all the established studios and photogs failing and refuse to admit your part in it.

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You're right to a point that I care about the industry but not likely as much as you. I have a full time job and don't make my living here. To that point, it's not expected I would have the same view as those who are full time.

You're also right that I don't see what little work I do and the impact of my business and how I run it as affecting your or others. Bottom line that I see is you are the one not willing to admit your part in the downfall. You seem to be content with pointing fingers but none bend back to your own actions or the way you run your business. What have you changed in the way of day to day business to keep your pipeline full?

PenguinPhotoCo said:

I know a number of studios that could stay in business if they would avoid paying taxes and following other laws that are costly (having legit employees, paying workers comp insurance for them, paying the employer part of FICA and UC, paying for the accounting needed to make this all work, etc).

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None of the above are applicable given their revenue is likely far greater than mine and business totally different. Not even a remote comparison.

Respectfully, you are wasting your time with this guy. He doesn't get, he hasn't gotten, and he won't get it. He will rationalize any argument you thrown at him to justify his indefensible -- and reprehensible -- position.

PenguinPhotoCo said:

You have a local police dept. They officers get paid, they buy police cars and gas to run them.
Say it costs $150k a year to fund this department.

If you town has 20,000 people paying taxes then each pays $7.50 towards the police dept.

If say, 1000 people decide to cheat the system by not paying their taxes one of two things are gonna happen - either the PD gets $7500 less to spend or those that do pay taxes have to now pay $7.89 each.
We all get the same benefit - only not all of us are paying for it.

That's theft, plain and simple.

On such a small example that's only 39c, but looking at federal, state and local it adds up to a more sizable figure. Sales tax isn't something you pay - you collect it for the government and pass it along. So there's really no reason not to do so, is there? I'll probably collect and hand over over $5k in sales tax this year.

pdqgp said:

Phileas Fogg said:

I agree with you 100%.

Debating what and where tax dollars are spent is fair and open but just not here in this forum. Those who feel though that it's ok to cheat from paying taxes be they rich, middle or even lower incomes are not being not proper, as you said steal from each of us and such is criminal.

Click to expand...

I don't see what the business of how people deal with their taxes is stealing from others. If you really think our tax dollars are well spent and are so very open to giving up every penny of what the states and feds take and demand of you and enjoy bending over and saying "thank you sir, may I have another" God Bless You. Not me and I don't feel a dang bit guilty for it.

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If you don't like how the money is spent then go lobby your congressman. Refusing to pay your taxes isn't the way to get the system changed.

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MWAC = Mom With A Camera

-Suntan

Michael Thomas Mitchell said:

I think John Hinkley was similarly impressed by DeNiro's Taxi Driver, and James Holmes Batman's Joker.

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First child molesters, now assassins... Really, can we take the foot off the gas with the straw man comparisons?

-Suntan