OM-D compared to GH2 -- my thoughts (LONG)

Ray Sachs said:

Pete Berry said:

Unless you folks who've shouted Bias! here have actually owned and shot both E-M5 and GH2 fairly extensively - as has the OP - then guess where the bias lies and the fanboyism sings? Seems to me he was expecting more from the Oly than he could find in the cobbled interface. Don't imagine he bought it just to confirm low expectations

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I've owned both and I'll say "bias" but I won't shout it because Bob qualified his opinions right up front and is pretty clear about what his review is and what it isn't. I'm biased too - I never got comfortable with the GH2 over the several months I owned it and sold it when the ep3 became available, despite the apparent IQ hit. So I understand fully how personal preferences color our impressions and opinions. I'm as biased as anyone and I just try to be upfront about my biases when I discuss gear so the reader can factor that in. Bob did the same and I don't think we can ask much more than that.

Ray Sachs said:

Having had an E-30 and E-PL1, i can attest to the miserable Oly menu experience of nested layers for frequently used functions, and the E-M5 no doubt is even more inexplicable. The spectre of this and the lack of even a single dedicated shooting control - I mean, not even an AEL/AFL button, FGS! - rules this out for me, a GH1-GH2 user who's very happy with the IQ.

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You can program any of several buttons as an AFL/AEL button, as well as with many other functions. Yes, the Oly menus are more complex, but the camera is so customizable that you can quickly set it up so you barely have to use them.

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Maybe that is one of the problems: the EM5 is too customizable and lacks some practical features, like AEB and MySets accessibility, at the same time. I never felt that the GH2 is not customizable enough, and it has practical photographic (configurable) options, which the EM-5 completely lacks, like the ability to toggle back and forth to spot metering with ONE button press.

I think Olympus got stuck with its configuration mania, so that they forgot about UI intelligence completely.

Ray Sachs said:

The only parts of the interface that I really would call "worse" as opposed to "different" is the difficulty of getting to the various bracketing options. And the drive options were obviously more accessible on the GH2, but they're only one click away on the OLY interface, which I've never felt was a burden.

Ray Sachs said:

Sure, I'd like the extra stop of DR and high ISO cleanness, but new tricks come hard to this old dog now and I look forward to the significant improvements the GH3 is certain to have while keeping its uber-friendly UI.

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I look forward to it myself - the more good cameras out there the better. I won't buy it, but I'm sure I'll benefit from it indirectly.

-Ray
-------------------------
http://www.flickr.com/photos/20889767@N05/collections/72157626204295198/

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Thomas

SidSnot said:

tgutgu said:

I hope that Olympus listens and reacts quickly with a firmware update to address the accessibility issues regarding AEB and MySets. If they do this, the edge is more clearly to the EM5.
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Thomas

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+1 - I just can't believe such a respected camera company would go to the trouble of adding 'Colour Space' control to the SCP - something which 99% of owners will set just ONCE in their ownership of the camera and yet leave AEB (and other useful settings) off the SCP.

Mysets are so difficult to master (and know which one you are using) that I have decided not to use them. Compare them to the 3 x 'C' modes directly accessible on the GH2 dial and you wonder what the OM-D designers were actually thinking, if they were thinking at all...

And don't get me going about the power switch....

The more I think about it - the one saving grace the OM-D has over the GH2 is it's IBIS...

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... and performance.

I always become annoyed when I see thinks like art filters and scenes on the main control wheel of a flagship camera. Granted, the GH2 has that also, but it at least has three custom positions as well. The EM5? Nope.

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Thomas

Then you should know that many of the buttons on the E-M5 are customizable, so you can setup all the dedicated shooting controls to your liking. Gives people more flexibility and more options to match their shooting style.

Pete Berry said:

Having had an E-30 and E-PL1, i can attest to the miserable Oly menu experience of nested layers for frequently used functions, and the E-M5 no doubt is even more inexplicable. The spectre of this and the lack of even a single dedicated shooting control - I mean, not even an AEL/AFL button, FGS! - rules this out for me, a GH1-GH2 user who's very happy with the IQ.

Sure, I'd like the extra stop of DR and high ISO cleanness, but new tricks come hard to this old dog now and I look forward to the significant improvements the GH3 is certain to have while keeping its uber-friendly UI.

Pete

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rrr_hhh said:

DonParrot said:

Well Bob, I don't share your opinions in most areas, but as you said, you don't want to discuss this. Fonine for me as everything about the numerous advantages of the E-M5 has been said a thousand times.
But in your assemssments below you made two mistakes:

Bob Meyer said:

Ergonomics: Although nothing else is as dumbfoundingly bad as AEB, there are a number of other UI problems that I find annoying at best, and interfere with my use of the camera at worst. Starting with maybe the least significant, the touch screen interface is half-a$$ed. The SCP is a great feature (mostly), but why do I have to touch an option on the screen and then press the OK button. If I’ve tapped the ISO button, why can’t the camera understand it’s because I want to change the ISO and go directly to the setting menu for that? Having to repeatedly touch the screen and then push a button, is pretty silly. Panasonic implements the touch screen much more elegantly.

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You don't have to press the okay button after having selected an option on the SCP. Just turn the front control wheel to change the respective settings. It couldn't be easier. Don't blame a tool if you didn't read the manual.

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That caught my attention too ! Seems incredible.

rrr_hhh said:

rrr_hhh said:

Other foibles:

... Oh, and setting ISO via the SCP is a pain, with all the ISOs arranged in a row. If you want to switch from auto to ISO 3200 you need to push buttons repeatedly. On the GH2, the numbers are arranged in a grid, and you can just touch the value you want. Even if you don’t use the touch screen, you can still choose most ISOs with fewer button pushes.

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As I said above. Read the f*cking manual. What could be easier than turning a wheel?

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Further he can customize the four ways controller and get it to work almost like a Panasonic camera :

1) First disable the direct mode on the four ways controller.

2) Secondly customize the arrows to what you want : I set up my E-P3 to work almost like my G3 and unless the four ways controller of the GH2 is very different from the G3, you can do the same :

• AF area : on the left arrow (not customizable, but same as my G3)
• Drive mode on the down arrow (customizable)
• WB on the right arrow (or if you prefer ISO, customizable)
• Exp compensation on the up arrow (not customizable to ISO)

And as said by Don Parrot : you hit any of those keys or the touch screen and work with any of the wheel : there is nothing faster to adjust the controls.

Apparently, you need to spend a little more time with the E-M5 and to get accustomed to the wheels better : they have much more functions than on the GH2 (are much more capable), you will love them !

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Hi rrr_hhh

right you are. This seems to be a case of "I want item one to be worse than item two and therefore it is worse."

--



Why not - if there's enough space on the sofa...

I'm a HOlygan

azazel1024 wrote:

Almost exactly my complaints with the OP's comparison. GH2 is a nice camera, has killer video features that I would gladly welcome to my E-M5 (as well as the multi aspect sensor), but to put down some of the clear objective advantages of OM-D to make GH2 seem "not that bad" in those areas is simply silly.

And for the usability part of both cameras - they have completely different approach - GH2 utilizes thought out "like it or leave it" approach while OM-D has more flexible "customize it to your liking" approach. Both have their advantages and shortcomings. I found that the day I've spent setting up E-M5's controls reward me ever since. The bracketing is only thing that I wish I can assign to a dedicated button.

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Subjective opinion

Noting wrong with that but the E-M5 is leaps and bounds better than a GH2.

Want to put it to the test?

Let's start with 9fps and ISO6400!

If you want let's start with sharpness S-AF in good light then low light.

--
Christos

I am ready to buy an upgrade to my GH2 and I've read and reread many things about the m5 and I just can't pull the trigger. I used oly for years before I switched to M4/3's so I'm not against switching back at all. I just really love my GH2 and the only two things I want improved on it are the High ISO and buffer. I have high hopes the GH3 will address these without having the drawbacks that the m5 has. This wouldn't even be a question if it had come with an articulating screen and built in flash I would own it right now as that would have been enough to push me over.

They both have their trade-offs as will the GH3. I just seem to be more comfortable with the Panny trade-offs right now.

I am not a camera junky and I can wait until the right camera comes along, or six months, whatever comes first!
--
It's easier to ask for forgiveness than to ask for permission.

Some folk do like this and some folk do like that...what's the problem?

The key is, however, not to make everything customizable, but to provide some intelligence for your practical work. The GH2 has things like that, such as the one button spot metering, the direct accessibility to AEB, and so forth. This is better than total configurability. The menu access of the EM5 is so dumb (can't even remember the last menu position used) that it is hard to believe that this wasn't obvious to the product testers.

Juxa said:

azazel1024 wrote:

Almost exactly my complaints with the OP's comparison. GH2 is a nice camera, has killer video features that I would gladly welcome to my E-M5 (as well as the multi aspect sensor), but to put down some of the clear objective advantages of OM-D to make GH2 seem "not that bad" in those areas is simply silly.

And for the usability part of both cameras - they have completely different approach - GH2 utilizes thought out "like it or leave it" approach while OM-D has more flexible "customize it to your liking" approach. Both have their advantages and shortcomings. I found that the day I've spent setting up E-M5's controls reward me ever since. The bracketing is only thing that I wish I can assign to a dedicated button.

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Thomas

many will disagree with your assessments, but every one has different priorities and there is no single right answer.

With every comparative analysis there is no single answer to which is best- which is why when faced with the choice different consumers continue to make different choices.

There are always advantages in different directions and the relative importance of each varies the different people.

It is a pity that some people who come to a different conclusion are unable to simple accept that your answer works for you and will also work for some others. This does not mean their own different evaluation is not correct for them.

Oh well....that is life.

But thank you. I found it informative. But I do wonder who will use the information to make a decision between the GH2 and the OMD right now. I mean if you did not already buy a GH2 and your budget stretches to the OMD ...why would you not wait to hear what will be announced at photokina?

In the mean time one of the biggest take-aways is the sound objective evaluation that even for a supporter of the GH2, the sensor of the OMD is indeed a step forward from the GH2, even if depending on your priorities the OMD has compensating annoyances.

Bob Meyer said:

Midnighter said:

Since I don't even own a MFT system and am trying to work out whether it should be a Panasonic Vs an Olympus body... my first thought is to straight off go and buy the OMD because your use of language sounds... well...

Advantage: OM-D, I suppose, but just barely.

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"just barely" is accurate, for my needs. There's so little real advantage after weighing the tradeoffs it is a tiny advantage. And not one that's real important to the way I shoot.

Bob Meyer said:

Advantage: Oly But I’m not as happy with the OM-D in some other respects.

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Tow different subjects that you've merged together. Yes, the OM-D has some advantages, but also some problems. Is that a hard concept for you to understand?

Bob Meyer said:

Given that IBIS doesn’t take anything away, I "have to" give the Oly the advantage here. Advantage: Oly

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You're reading more into the language than is there. I think maybe you're the fan boy, in spite of your claims not to own either. Would your opinion change if I wrote "I give the Oly the advantage here"?

Did you get to the conclusion, or stop reading because my opinion doesn't match yours? I said that IBIS is an advantage of the Oly. Just not enough of one to balance the flaws, FOR ME.

Bob Meyer said:

...like pure fanboyism.

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Yep, your response certainly does.

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I think you really cinched the deal for this fella, Bob. Ever think of a career in sales?

--
Sailin' Steve

Bob Meyer said:

“Weatherproofing”: Frankly, I’m not convinced this is much more than a marketing claim. The weatherproofing apparently is dependent on several removable, and easily lost, seals. That’s a far cry from cameras like the Nikon D3 or D4 and the Canon 1D series, or even the 7D. And even with the seals, it’s rated only IPX1, which means “Protection against vertically falling drops of water e.g. condensation.” It’s not even IPX2, which means “Protected against direct sprays of water up to 15o from the vertical.” So maybe a very light drizzle is safe, but maybe not a heavy fog. Don’t even think about using it in a storm, or in the surf to shoot surf boarding. This is not weatherproof. Not even close. I shoot in the rain very infrequently, and the various aftermarket solutions work well enough for me, so this isn’t a big deal either way. Advantage: OM-D, I suppose, but just barely.

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I'l bite.

Full disclosure I own an OMD and one of the reason's I bought it was water resistance.
It it the first MFT I've owned or shot.

That being said, there is a really easy way of working out how well the GH2 goes on the weather resistance comparison.

Try this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlngvkBxLME&feature=player_detailpage#t=223s

This looks like a direct spray roughly 90 deg from the vertical.

I've seen other video of some doing the same sort of thing but mainly in the vertical and more toward the mount join.

Looks like a wee bit more than a marketing claim.

As for the reliance on seals, I believe that pretty much all water resistant/waterproof electronics rely on seals. Which can be removed and lost.

The thing in this case is that the seals are not intended to be user removable - you have to dissamble to get at most, if not all of them.

That is sort of like saying "the picture taking capability of this camera is reliant on a removable and easily losable imaging sensor.....". Yes you can both remove and lose the sensor (and the waterproof seals), but that is not something the average user will do as it would involve pulling the camera apart.

Actually the sort of people I know that pull cameras apart are careful enough to try really hard not to lose bits, lay them out in an order than makes it easy to re-assemble them (ideally without left over bits) etc.

Sorry you sort of lost me at that point.

If your going to write a comparison, please have the decency to make it at least appear un-biased.

You don't have to like the OMD but I think it is reasonable not to condemn it with faint praise for being constructed the same as any other water resistant/proof device or for the fact that thought a feature is technically equivilent or indeed better by most conventional criteria, you just happen not to like it "based on how I use the cameras.".

It was actually refreshing to read Bob's original post given all the fanfare the E-M5 has received. For a lengthy period leading up to and following its release, it resulted in a solid 2 pages of mFT forum threads posted in a 24 hour period mostly on it, which frankly did get tiresome! This thread was a reminder that there are other excellent mFT cameras out there and that the E-M5 has room for improvement.

What I feel stole the show for the E-M5 was its combination of well executed features including a new sensor with class-leading high-ISO and DR capabilities, the usual peerless Olympus OOC JPEG's, weathersealing, a superior EVF and a fair price all wrapped in an elegant body that doesn't shout "me too".

The GH2's strengths to me include best video in mFT, a multi-aspect sensor, a more user-friendly interface and its current price ($729 w/14-42mm on Amazon, body-only is now a rarity). That Panasonic has yet to remedy their JPEG skin tones seems mind-boggling unless perhaps its an east/west attitudinal thing.

The G1 body (for that's what the GH series is strongly derived from) never evoked much excitement for its styling and now looks dated if still quite serviceable. Let's see what the GH3 brings to the table.
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Sailin' Steve

tgutgu said:

One concern, you did not mention probably because you haven't experienced it, are some aspects of the EM5's build quality: paint resistance and poor eye cup design. At

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While I have not experienced the paint problem I actually lost my eye cup within the first 3 days - and it had come off about once an hour for every hour I used the camera.

As it happens I wanted to get the optional deeper one anyway, but I despise the fact that I was forced to get a new one by the original one not staying put.

tgutgu said:

If you have used both cameras thoroughly enough, you don't need side by side comparison in order to do a similar assessment. I own both cameras and shoot only with the EM5 since I bought it in April, and come to nearly the same conclusions as Bob, except the final verdict. I somehow prefer using the EM5 due to IBIS and more fluid operation. The latter will be accomplished with the GH3, the former unfortunately not. Should Panasonic add IBIS to their bodies, I will be likely back in the Panasonic camp again, as they understand much better to do body ergonomics suitable for photographers.

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I agreed with most of what Bob said. I'll add that I loved the 40fps mode, and great video of the GH2. I merely pointed out that on several occasions in his post he pointed out facts showing the E-M5 superior, but claimed "not convinced", and then rewared a tie. He reminds me of a boxing judge at the Olympics.
They are both great cameras.

tgutgu said:

The key is, however, not to make everything customizable, but to provide some intelligence for your practical work. The GH2 has things like that, such as the one button spot metering, the direct accessibility to AEB, and so forth. This is better than total configurability. The menu access of the EM5 is so dumb (can't even remember the last menu position used) that it is hard to believe that this wasn't obvious to the product testers.

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There ar two hings which I dislike on the Olympus cameras :

1) the way you set AEB

2) the need to switch between the different displays with the info button : I want to have the blinkies and the level gauge accessible at the same time !

However concerning AEB : its implementation isn't ideal on Panasonic cameras, because you have to choose between the timer and the AEB. Had Olympus allowed access to bracketing through the SCP, it would be perfect for me, better than the Panasonic implementation.

Also, I'd have liked to have ISO on the up arrow. But somehow, now, I've got accustomed to the SCP. ISO and WB are in tight competition to get the right arrow. I'm still not sure what I need most; in the end, I have left the WB on the right arrow, making both the G3 and E-P3 as similar as I could. My E-M5 should arrive next Monday, then I will see what I put on the right arrow.

What I really like is the way the VF change when you operate the exposure compensation. What I like is the way faster FPS and larger buffer of the E-P3 over the G3. I wasn't aware of this problem on the GH2, thought it would be better on this high end model.

In fact, I got the E-P3 after the G3 and use the E-P3 more, inspite of its older sensor.

tgutgu said:

Juxa said:

azazel1024 wrote:

Almost exactly my complaints with the OP's comparison. GH2 is a nice camera, has killer video features that I would gladly welcome to my E-M5 (as well as the multi aspect sensor), but to put down some of the clear objective advantages of OM-D to make GH2 seem "not that bad" in those areas is simply silly.

And for the usability part of both cameras - they have completely different approach - GH2 utilizes thought out "like it or leave it" approach while OM-D has more flexible "customize it to your liking" approach. Both have their advantages and shortcomings. I found that the day I've spent setting up E-M5's controls reward me ever since. The bracketing is only thing that I wish I can assign to a dedicated button.

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--
Thomas

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rrr_hhh

Bob

Thanks so much for sharing your insight. Too many folks seem to think specifications alone define a camera and not realize how much our opinions, likes, dislikes, individual physical characteristics, style, and subject matter go into how well a camera will work for a particular person.

Of what use is the "best" camera if it doesn't inspire you, or doesn't fit you or has some quirk that constantly annoys you, or any one of dozens of other personal things that just don't make it a good fit for you. Personally I find others insights very useful even if they may not all apply to me.

I particularly appreciated your comments on weather sealing. It was one of the reasons I chose an OMD and after getting it I find myself in complete agreement with your comments. The degree of weather sealing offered by the EM5 is minimal at best and nothing like that offered by an E1/E3/E5. I also had the same concers on the lack of built in flash and all the looseable fiddley bits on the EM5.

But in the end the metal body, compact size, great controls, class leading jpeg engine, and performance (speed, DR and iso) of the EM5 won out over a G5. It's not perfect and may not be for everyone, but its my favorite m4/3 body so far.

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Regards
Jim

Bob isn't talking about dissasembling the body or lens. He's talking about things like removing the hotshoe cover, or the accessory port cover, or grip interface cover - all of which would be done in common use, and they are easily lost bits that instantly compromise what little bit of weatherproofing the EM-5 has.

Do I consider the EM-5s level of weather sealing useful - yes. It could save you a repair bill from a slight unexpected incident. But would I take this camera deliberately into any conditions I wouldn't use an unsealed camera in - no. I've owned an E1 and an E3 and have seen what good weather sealing looks like - and what the EM-5 has isn't it. Even some of its port covers are not actually sealed - they are simply covered - so anything more than a light fog or few stray drops are likely to get in anyway.

So I agree with Bob, the the "weather sealing" on the EM-5 is much more about ticking a feature box on a marketing brochure than any meaningful degree of protection for a camera meant to used in adverse conditions.

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Regards
Jim

Bob Meyer said:

The biggest drawback to me, and pretty close do a deal breaker:

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Bob Meyer said:

AEB: The contortions necessary to turn AEB on and off are ridiculous. This is perhaps the worst example of how NOT to implement camera controls I’ve ever seen. It literally takes a dozen button pushes or more to turn AEB on, and the same to turn it off again. Unlike Panasonic, which separates the selection of AEB options (e.g. 5 frames at 1 stop intervals) from turning it on and off, Oly combines them into the same menu tree, forcing you to navigate to, and through, the options selection even if all you want to do is turn the previously selected option on or off. (Yes, I know you can set AEB to a myset, but unfortunately that doesn’t affect only AEB, it affects nearly every camera setting, potentially overriding your current shooting options. That’s just not a good option.) I frankly can’t believe the UI got through Oly testing this way. And, since I use AEB quite often, this is a major issue for me.

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This WAS a deal breaker for me. I'd had an E-PL2 for about a year when I pre-ordered an EM5. The following month two things happened in the same week: the GH2 price dropped into the mid $700's and I read the PDF EM5 user manual, which told me that the terrible AEB implementation had not been improved (being relatively new to Oly and m43, I foolishly allowed myself to think that something so bad could not possibly be allowed on their newest flagship camera). The poor AEB control plus the lack of custom settings on the Mode dial were my two biggest complaints about the E-PL2 (there were others, all of which caused me to mutter naughty words on many occasions - it's not a good thing when you find yourself cursing your camera on a regular basis).

In short order I did three things:

• cancelled my EM5 order
• bought a GH2
• sold the E-PL2

The GH2 has been a dream camera. It's loaded with physical controls and I can work all day without having to menu dive (and the only muttered words are thanks and praise). It's wonderful, and I especially appreciate the fully articulated screen in portrait mode.

People have been complaining about the Oly AEB thing for a long time. It's amazing to me why Oly ignores this. It could be fixed with a firmware update. They also should add the MySets to the Mode dial (like just about every other camera on the planet that has them).

Thanks for the thorough review, I know it took a lot of time and effort to prepare it. Ignore the critics, this will be very helpful to many readers.

Regards,
Clayton

Info on black and white digital printing at
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
I-Trak 3.0 http://www.cjcom.net/itrak.htm

I totally agree. The AEB implementation of the GH2 is far from ideal. Tripod-based AEB lacked the possibility to combine it with the timer, for handheld bracketing the buffer size wasn't sufficient and the frame rate not high enough.

I have no clue, why firmware engineers never get this right. We are now about in the 10th year of the digital system camera era, by now the engineers should have received enough feedback from photographers, to know what the users of cameras need. HDR, one of the main reasons for doing AEB, is popular since at least four years. Why don't they get it?

rrr_hhh said:

tgutgu said:

The key is, however, not to make everything customizable, but to provide some intelligence for your practical work. The GH2 has things like that, such as the one button spot metering, the direct accessibility to AEB, and so forth. This is better than total configurability. The menu access of the EM5 is so dumb (can't even remember the last menu position used) that it is hard to believe that this wasn't obvious to the product testers.

Click to expand...

There ar two hings which I dislike on the Olympus cameras :

1) the way you set AEB

2) the need to switch between the different displays with the info button : I want to have the blinkies and the level gauge accessible at the same time !

However concerning AEB : its implementation isn't ideal on Panasonic cameras, because you have to choose between the timer and the AEB. Had Olympus allowed access to bracketing through the SCP, it would be perfect for me, better than the Panasonic implementation.

Also, I'd have liked to have ISO on the up arrow. But somehow, now, I've got accustomed to the SCP. ISO and WB are in tight competition to get the right arrow. I'm still not sure what I need most; in the end, I have left the WB on the right arrow, making both the G3 and E-P3 as similar as I could. My E-M5 should arrive next Monday, then I will see what I put on the right arrow.

What I really like is the way the VF change when you operate the exposure compensation. What I like is the way faster FPS and larger buffer of the E-P3 over the G3. I wasn't aware of this problem on the GH2, thought it would be better on this high end model.

In fact, I got the E-P3 after the G3 and use the E-P3 more, inspite of its older sensor.

rrr_hhh said:

Juxa said:

azazel1024 wrote:

Almost exactly my complaints with the OP's comparison. GH2 is a nice camera, has killer video features that I would gladly welcome to my E-M5 (as well as the multi aspect sensor), but to put down some of the clear objective advantages of OM-D to make GH2 seem "not that bad" in those areas is simply silly.

And for the usability part of both cameras - they have completely different approach - GH2 utilizes thought out "like it or leave it" approach while OM-D has more flexible "customize it to your liking" approach. Both have their advantages and shortcomings. I found that the day I've spent setting up E-M5's controls reward me ever since. The bracketing is only thing that I wish I can assign to a dedicated button.

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Thomas

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rrr_hhh

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Thomas