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Santa Barbara (CA) Peace March

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EL_Hombre said:
If you read this, I'm sure you will disregard what I say as
nonsense and probably lunatic, but just do a quick search on any of
the dictators above and you'll find out who supported them
financially and militarily.

Which dictator do they have to replace Saddam?
Click to expand...
What I notice is that you don't publically condemn dictators and their behavior.

What I notice is that you don't want those being tortured to be helped. What I notice is the Saudi Royal Family's hatred of women.
What I notice is the religious hatred of anything that not Muslim.

What I notice is the willingness of the world and people like you to accept this behavior.

What I notice is that your silence about North Korea allows Kim to continue starving his people.

Your intent and hate for America is very clear by your lack of balance in your condemnation of what is happening around the world today.

Let's read a bit of condemnation of Dictators around the world no matter how they got in power.

Let's talk it up so people can be free to come and go as they please. Let's talk it up so people can practice their religions, everywhere, without threat of prosecution. Let's hear it for women around the world, so they can be free to pursue their dreams of education, work, play and the right to choose their mate of life. Let's hear it for the caged victims, within their own homeland, who are being tortured and killed because they do nothing more then speak out against their master, the dictator.

What say you, oh silent one?
 
This is not meant here, the sample pictures forum is meant for these threads, maybe your picture doesent get as much respect there, but hey thats the rules...
 
Rick Eames said:
I'll just say, because I'm dying to be riddled with arrows, that I
have never understood the point behind "marches" like this.
Click to expand...
Oh yes its really nice for us sitting at home watching CNN and BBC for live fotage of missiles hitting peoples homes, theyre like fireworks, and we watch it all like amusement in our comfy couch together with our loved ones.
Rick Eames said:
And all I want is for someone to answer the question: what do you
want to have happen if it turns out Iraq DOES have nukes? Anything
at all?
Click to expand...
One would think that teh weapons inspectors would have found something by now if there really would be anything there, okay they found a few old empty missiles.

Well actually GWB would not need to worry about any nukes in he s back-yard, since if iraq gets nukes, those will be short-range ones, of course this is also devastating to but... And secondly, you cant invent nukes in a few minutes, you need to do alot of testing of the nukes, although im not an expert, i think that would be the right time to react.

Oh and where are the terrorists? at first GWB was talking about iraq having to be raided because of terrorists, now its weapons of mass-destructure, even though the weapons inspectors claim everything was destroyed after operation sand-storm.

Oh and im really puzzled to why USA is taking it so calm against north-korea, who actually technically stil lis at war against the usa and is alot closer into making nukes... maybe a poor country doesent interest the usa as much as one of the biggest oil-producers in the world.

And not so long ago saddam hussein was a friend of the est, as was osama, pinochet... and many more... and rulers like Pol Pot and even Adolf Hitler have to thank USA and other western countrys for giving tehm a broken infra-structure that they can exploit and form a dictature...

IMHO. USAs government is one of the most hypocritical in the world, but he ythats just me. And you also claim you are the only ones with full freedom of speech, and still i will probably be getting very unpolite answers to this thread...
 
During the years between WWI and WWII when folks like the "Untouchables" were going after organized crime (and even today) often, agencies would finally nab the bad guys on the premise of tax evasion, etc. It's not that the bad guys weren't doing anything else illegal, but they were really good at covering their tracks and illegal activities. So...what is this all about anyway?

Many will speculate "oil". Perhaps. Consider, though, what percentage of our oil comes from this area - a shrinking percentage. Besides, even if it were, what would you do if you drove up to the pump and gas costs $15 a gallon. Could be credence there.

Maybe it's a land grab. HmmmNot exactly prime real estate here (Post - Garden of Eden/Great Dispersal/Diluvian event.) Not on my list of places to build the next Sun City.

Maybe it's the fact that Sadam has no problem rubbing shoulders with the Al-Qaida...or maybe that he celebrates the efforts of terrorist cells in their wacky little desctruction of persons/property track record. Hmmm...Gee...didn't the skyline of New york look different a couple of years ago? I seem to remember two big buildings and about 5,000 lives ...naw...musta been a dream.

WWII....U.S. Kicks butt..takes names, liberates France and Germany THEN rebuilds thier countries....I take their whining with a grain of salt. Like a spolied kid who has it good and forgot where he came from.

Gee......I could really get on my soapbox here..

Anyone remember the site where they posted the photos of the WTC burning..taken with a CANON D-30 by that photojournalist that got killed? Maybe we need to post more shots of innocent dismembered and bloody terrorist victims...

Time for a cold glass of water..my head's gettin' hot.
Rune Moberg said:
Rick Eames said:
I'll just say, because I'm dying to be riddled with arrows, that I
have never understood the point behind "marches" like this.
Click to expand...
To make a stand and provoke debate by reminding everybody that not
everyone buys into Bush' propaganda (including most of Europe btw
-- you might want to check up on what the current diplomatic
relationship between US and European countries like France and
Germany look like these days).
Rune Moberg said:
And all I want is for someone to answer the question: what do you
want to have happen if it turns out Iraq DOES have nukes? Anything
at all?
Click to expand...
First: Find out how they got the nukes. The current concern is
chemical and bacteriological weapons though.

BTW: Donald Rumsfeld visited Saddam in 1983, at which point Iraq
had used chemical weapons against both soldiers from Iran and
Iraq's own population (the Kurds). It didn't seem to bother mr
Rumsfeld then when he had an excellent opportunity to speak
eye-to-eye with Saddam...

Not to mention that many of US' current allies are just as 'bad' as
Saddam in some (or all) respects. Yet Bush only focus on an old
nemesis that beat his father. It almost looks personal. :-> (but it
is really about the oil, so in some respect that part of it can be
excused)

Simply put: It looks bad if US ignores UN at a point in time where
Saddam complies with UN policies.

I believe everyone would like Saddam to disappear, but why not do
it by the book? Why the sudden rush? (election time starting to
close in?)

--
Rune, http://runesbike.com/
Click to expand...
 
Thomas Gardner said:
EL_Hombre said:
If you read this, I'm sure you will disregard what I say as
nonsense and probably lunatic, but just do a quick search on any of
the dictators above and you'll find out who supported them
financially and militarily.

Which dictator do they have to replace Saddam?
Click to expand...
What I notice is that you don't publically condemn dictators and
their behavior.
Click to expand...
Read My Murder Incorprated thread here.

If you cannot understand that I oppose dictatorships, your aren't reading my post. I even throw Saddam in with Idi Amin.

Do I really need to spell it out?
Thomas Gardner said:
What I notice is that you don't want those being tortured to be
helped.
Click to expand...
Thomas Gardner said:
Thomas Gardner said:
What I notice is the Saudi Royal Family's hatred of women.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Did you know that most of the 9-11 terrorists were Saudi's? Did you know that a Saudi jet was allowed to fly after 9-11 to pick up members of the Royal family and whisk them off to Saudi Arabia? Friends in high places.
Thomas Gardner said:
What I notice is the willingness of the world and people like you
to accept this behavior.
Click to expand...
You don't even know me to categorize me as such.
Thomas Gardner said:
What I notice is that your silence about North Korea allows Kim to
continue starving his people.
Click to expand...
But the US is willing to negotiate with him. Is that a double standard? Ask yourself why the say they will use diplomacy in his case. Probably the return on investment is very poor.

Also, I have not been to N. Korea or read much about it to have an accurate opinion. I just know McCarthy wanted to turn it inro a parking lot.
Thomas Gardner said:
Your intent and hate for America is very clear by your lack of
balance in your condemnation of what is happening around the world
today.
Click to expand...
That's a very broad statement. I choose to live here and I have very little hate in me. I also pay taxes. My tax money has gone to support many unjustified wars, support very vicious regimes, Saddam included, and create an incredible amount of weapons that can destroy most life on Earth.

I have definitely earned my right to oppose policies of destruction.

The most critical issue around the world today is the US's drive toward war.

People far and wide see it as their issue to, why is that? Not thousands mind you, millions of people.
Thomas Gardner said:
Let's read a bit of condemnation of Dictators around the world no
matter how they got in power.
Click to expand...
I blame the parent for creating and encouraging the tyranny of the child. I blame the child for not correcting it's behavior. Do I need to spell it out more.
Thomas Gardner said:
Let's talk it up so people can be free to come and go as they
please. Let's talk it up so people can practice their religions,
everywhere, without threat of prosecution. Let's hear it for women
around the world, so they can be free to pursue their dreams of
education, work, play and the right to choose their mate of life.
Let's hear it for the caged victims, within their own homeland, who
are being tortured and killed because they do nothing more then
speak out against their master, the dictator.
Click to expand...
Let's move humnaity forward so that might does not make right.
Thomas Gardner said:
What say you, oh silent one?
Click to expand...
No Blood For Oil.
 
Gillis Danielsen said:
IMHO. USAs government is one of the most hypocritical in the world,
but he ythats just me. And you also claim you are the only ones
with full freedom of speech, and still i will probably be getting
very unpolite answers to this thread...
Click to expand...
And not one word of condemnation of the Dictatorships around the world. Not one word about the starvation of people in North Korea. Not one word about the hate of people of the Jewish faith. Not one word about the hate of women in Saudi Arabia. Not one word about the invasion of Kuwait.

Yepper, the USA is the bad guy as the rest of the world does absolutely nothing.

What say you oh quiet one? Where's your outrage towards what's going on in the world besides your distain for the USofA?

Do you have complaints about WarLords in Samalia. The treatment of whites in Africa. How about the slavery in the Sudan. What say you about the black on black crime in Soweto, South Africa and Oakland, California, USA? Why don't you decry the enslavement of the people in China? How about comments about how Pakistan and India are constantly at each other's throats? What about the English and Irish. How about the corruption of Mexico. Anything to say about the economy of Argentine? How about commenting about how Arafat won't settle it down after getting ninty-eight percent of what he wanted in the UN accords. Have you commented about how the Arab nations have attacked Isreal, not once but three times in an attempt to "EXTERMINATE" those of Jewish faith? Where's your outrage of the homicide bombers that blow up discos in Bali and other places around the world.

Silence is all I read.

It's almost impossible to list all the suffering and turmoil that's going on about the world but at least I try.... or is the truth, you hate the US and that's your sole focus.

Where's your fair and balanced thought?

I await your condemnation of all ditators around the world and the mass starvation and enslavement of the citizens at the hands of these dictators.

I also await your printed solutions on how to deal with these despots.
 
EL_Hombre said:
Read My Murder Incorprated thread here.

If you cannot understand that I oppose dictatorships, your aren't
reading my post. I even throw Saddam in with Idi Amin.
Click to expand...
Then let's see you condemn in a fair and balanced way and not just gang up on someone that's trying to do something.
El_Hombre said:
Do I really need to spell it out?
Click to expand...
Yes I do want to see you spell it out. I want to read your condemnation of all dictators great and small. I want to read they your concerned about those being tortured and starved. Yes, I want it spelled out.
El_Hombre said:
Did you know that most of the 9-11 terrorists were Saudi's? Did you
know that a Saudi jet was allowed to fly after 9-11 to pick up
members of the Royal family and whisk them off to Saudi Arabia?
Friends in high places.
Click to expand...
And this was know at the time, before the investigations?
El_Hombre said:
El_Hombre said:
What I notice is the willingness of the world and people like you
to accept this behavior.
Click to expand...
You don't even know me to categorize me as such.
Click to expand...
Yes I do. You're not an enigma. I don't see your public condemnation. I only see you jumping on the "I Hate America" bandwagon.
El_Hombre said:
El_Hombre said:
What I notice is that your silence about North Korea allows Kim to
continue starving his people.
Click to expand...
But the US is willing to negotiate with him. Is that a double
standard? Ask yourself why the say they will use diplomacy in his
case. Probably the return on investment is very poor.

Also, I have not been to N. Korea or read much about it to have an
accurate opinion. I just know McCarthy wanted to turn it inro a
parking lot.
Click to expand...
There's plenty that's been posted about the starvation in North Korea. That's why the North Koreans blackmailed Clinton to get food. Why? So the government wouldn't have to be responsible for feeding the people and they could continue developing their intercontinental missiles.

No, he wanted to dump nuclear waste on the Yallow River to prevent the ChiComs from comming across and joing the war effort. That's a reasonable decision considering the conditions of the time.
El_Hombre said:
El_Hombre said:
Your intent and hate for America is very clear by your lack of
balance in your condemnation of what is happening around the world
today.
Click to expand...
That's a very broad statement. I choose to live here and I have
very little hate in me. I also pay taxes. My tax money has gone to
support many unjustified wars, support very vicious regimes, Saddam
included, and create an incredible amount of weapons that can
destroy most life on Earth.
Click to expand...
It's not a broad statement, it's a very narrow, specific statement. My how you ignore history and how the nuclear proliferation came about.
El_Hombre said:
I have definitely earned my right to oppose policies of destruction.
Click to expand...
And you also have a responsibility to decry all anti-human behavior not just one that has a popular chord to it.
El_Hombre said:
The most critical issue around the world today is the US's drive
toward war.
Click to expand...
No it's not. What's critical are the unspoken issues. Issues like AIDs in Africa and how cultural taboos prevent getting this disease undercontrol. Issues like starvation in Samalia that's caused by a bunch of wacked out WarLords that need power to make themselves feel good about themselves. The famines around the world that can be fixed with infrastructure but revolution prevents intervention. What's critical, are the policies in China and North Korea that are causing mass starvations of millions of people.

What is going on between the US and Iraq is small potatos compared to the mass starvation and diseased death, by the millions, each year in Africa.

No, you have had you eyes and mind distracted away from the real tragedies that exist on this Earth thanks to the quiet of the Left.
El_Hombre said:
People far and wide see it as their issue to, why is that? Not
thousands mind you, millions of people.
Click to expand...
And tens of millions in the US are supporting of these policies.

I still don't see the condemnation nor concern for women enslaved around the world nor pity for those that are in torture chambers because the Left had a deft ear turned towards their crys.
El_Hombre said:
El_Hombre said:
Let's read a bit of condemnation of Dictators around the world no
matter how they got in power.
Click to expand...
I blame the parent for creating and encouraging the tyranny of the
child. I blame the child for not correcting it's behavior. Do I
need to spell it out more.
Click to expand...
And so you don't condemn the Dictator but you condemn the parent. Yes you do need to spell it out more.
El_Hombre said:
El_Hombre said:
Let's talk it up so people can be free to come and go as they
please. Let's talk it up so people can practice their religions,
everywhere, without threat of prosecution. Let's hear it for women
around the world, so they can be free to pursue their dreams of
education, work, play and the right to choose their mate of life.
Let's hear it for the caged victims, within their own homeland, who
are being tortured and killed because they do nothing more then
speak out against their master, the dictator.
Click to expand...
Let's move humnaity forward so that might does not make right.
Click to expand...
And with Dictators in the way, this will never happen.
El_Hombre said:
El_Hombre said:
What say you, oh silent one?
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
El_Hombre said:
No Blood For Oil.
Click to expand...
I don't see any outrage for Dictators. Just "No Blood For Oil" and the torturing, hate and starvation shall continue.

How unfeeling of you.
 
You are trying to pass off one outrageous and unacceptable event as our foreign policy. Why don't you come up with a picture of the innocent woman being exexcuted in a soccer field in afganistan because she showed her ankles And that was the govt. policy to do so. Nothing huh!! I didn't think so!!
--

D60, G2, Elan 7E QD, Rebel 2000, 24-70L, 70-200L IS, 100-400L IS, 50mm f1.4, 85mm f/1.8, 100mm f/2.8 USM Macro, 135mm f/2, 200mm f/2.8 USM, 1-550EX, 2-420EXs, MT-24EX, Bogen Tri-pod w/head, Bogen monopod and the usual filters, cable releases and accessories.
 
Not a great way to support someone. If you want to criticize, you should do it constructively. Everbody doesn't shoot 200 shot a day. There are plenty of good shots in the group. You post does't show a lot of maturity, interpersonal skills and good judgment IMHO. Grow up.

Rick Decker
MKW said:
billtoo said:
I shot the peace march in Santa Barbara if anyone is interested.
http://www.pbase.com/billtoo/sbpeacerally



--
billtoo
D30
http://www.pbase.com/billtoo
Click to expand...
--
------------------------------------------------
M.K. Whitley
http://www.mkwphotography.com

'I have never let my schooling interfere with my education.'
  • Mark Twain
Click to expand...
--
http://www.lightreflection.com
 
I have seen people (or a person) post parade shots on this forum and there were no comments about the parade not belonging. I think that because the topic is so controversial, a lot of people have tried to put down the effort of the photographer. Why did you (and nobody else) complain about the parade shots being inappropriate?
Gillis Danielsen said:
This is not meant here, the sample pictures forum is meant for
these threads, maybe your picture doesent get as much respect
there, but hey thats the rules...
Click to expand...
--
http://www.lightreflection.com
 
The truth means nothing to these people. Just hate. Here's an example. Saddam invades and rapes Kuwait for their oil. We go in and kick the living sh*t out of him because we can't have dictators around the world taking over countries for their oil. Then they say we went to war for the oil. No saddam went to war and invaded Kuwait for the oil not us. We had to save the world again by kicking him out and we are the bad guys. These same mindless morons would burst our ear drums with the screams to save them at the first sign of trouble and we are the bad guy. Yes, we carry the worlds largest stick, and thank God it is us, imagine if Saddam carried the worlds largest stick. Do I hears screams.
--

D60, G2, Elan 7E QD, Rebel 2000, 24-70L, 70-200L IS, 100-400L IS, 50mm f1.4, 85mm f/1.8, 100mm f/2.8 USM Macro, 135mm f/2, 200mm f/2.8 USM, 1-550EX, 2-420EXs, MT-24EX, Bogen Tri-pod w/head, Bogen monopod and the usual filters, cable releases and accessories.
 
Thomas Gardner said:
Gillis Danielsen said:
IMHO. USAs government is one of the most hypocritical in the world,
but he ythats just me. And you also claim you are the only ones
with full freedom of speech, and still i will probably be getting
very unpolite answers to this thread...
Click to expand...
And not one word of condemnation of the Dictatorships around the
world. Not one word about the starvation of people in North Korea.
Not one word about the hate of people of the Jewish faith. Not one
word about the hate of women in Saudi Arabia. Not one word about
the invasion of Kuwait.
Click to expand...
Now lets see here... first of all i just want to remind you about the fact that if USA would have with the help of UN marched into Korea it probably would be alot more united nowadays, it would probably be one big "commie-country", but thats just speculations. Other then that i cant see how the starvation in Northern Korea is related to anything of this? I mean i was pointing out what usa have done so "rightelously" as allways. Same goes for the hate of the jewish, there is not one big country that has a antisemitistic government nowadays as far as i know, so no you cant justify your point with a few hundred thousand backbone idiots around the world, who clearly seem to have some kind of mental issues.

Hate of women in saudi-arabia? its their culture for gods sake! And its really an question about point of view, many saudi-arabian women consider themself free enough. And as far as i know, the attitudes are changing, very slow though, but notthing like this can be changed in a night, and still, its their culture, sometimes when i see stupid photosig photographs with women in makeup and latex pants i wonder if the women in the western civilisation are any less exploited ;).
Thomas Gardner said:
Yepper, the USA is the bad guy as the rest of the world does
absolutely nothing.
Click to expand...
Oooooh.... right, so because we do not stirr our fingers into everything that really is none of our business we should be ashamed of ourselves?
Thomas Gardner said:
What say you oh quiet one? Where's your outrage towards what's
going on in the world besides your distain for the USofA?
Click to expand...
Theres alot of problems in this would, but this thread is not about them, nor would i be able to fit them all onto dpreviews server.
Thomas Gardner said:
Do you have complaints about WarLords in Samalia. The treatment of
whites in Africa. How about the slavery in the Sudan. What say
you about the black on black crime in Soweto, South Africa and
Oakland, California, USA? Why don't you decry the enslavement of
the people in China? How about comments about how Pakistan and
India are constantly at each other's throats? What about the
English and Irish. How about the corruption of Mexico. Anything
to say about the economy of Argentine?
Click to expand...
Yes i would have plenty to say about it but i still refer to my last point.
Thomas Gardner said:
How about commenting about
how Arafat won't settle it down after getting ninty-eight percent
of what he wanted in the UN accords. Have you commented about how
the Arab nations have attacked Isreal, not once but three times in
an attempt to "EXTERMINATE" those of Jewish faith? Where's your
outrage of the homicide bombers that blow up discos in Bali and
Click to expand...
btw. i cant really see as if the jewish people would be totally innoncent in the israel question, i personally have no direct oppinion, but you usually need two parts for a fight. ps. im not an arab nor an jew nor do i have anything against neither religions.
Thomas Gardner said:
Silence is all I read.

It's almost impossible to list all the suffering and turmoil that's
going on about the world but at least I try.... or is the truth,
you hate the US and that's your sole focus.
Click to expand...
Actually i dont hate the USA, i just hate some of the new attitudes that have been growing in the USA lately.

And you are very right in what you say about it being impossible to list all problems of the world, but as i said earlyert THIS THREAD IS ABOUT THE WAR BETWEEN THE USA AND IRAQ , and justifying it.
Thomas Gardner said:
Where's your fair and balanced thought?

I await your condemnation of all ditators around the world and the
mass starvation and enslavement of the citizens at the hands of
these dictators.

I also await your printed solutions on how to deal with these despots.
Click to expand...
i once again refer to a point made earlyer, but yes my post was really to popint out that having someone barg into conflicts to get their own rights with false pretences of justice is really not fair whetever its the USA, France, Russia or your neighbor.

THIS thread is about the conflict between the USA and Iraq, and i was solel y pointing out similar cases to this one that the USA has been part of earlyer.

Oh and as last
Thank you for your comments, discussion is allways good.
 
I only see you jumping on the "I Hate America"
Thomas Gardner said:
bandwagon.
Click to expand...
If there are Playboy playmates on that bandwagon, I’m on it.

I don't hate America. I can separate the people of the US and it’s culture from the policies of the gov't.
Thomas Gardner said:
It's not a broad statement, it's a very narrow, specific statement.
My how you ignore history and how the nuclear proliferation came
about.
Click to expand...
There are so many aspects to America. You may see one America, I don't, especially when you throw in the rest of the Americas.
Thomas Gardner said:
And you also have a responsibility to decry all anti-human behavior
not just one that has a popular chord to it.
Click to expand...
I have, you just hear what you want to hear.
Thomas Gardner said:
What is going on between the US and Iraq is small potatos compared
to the mass starvation and diseased death, by the millions, each
year in Africa.
Click to expand...
I am all for sending these troops armed with medicine and food and shovels (for water). No politcal agenda.

I am for cutting the military budget and spending it on AIDS, Social Security, food education. I have mentioned some of this before, again you see what you want to see.
Thomas Gardner said:
No, you have had you eyes and mind distracted away from the real
tragedies that exist on this Earth thanks to the quiet of the Left.
Click to expand...
Blame the left, whoever they are. No one else’s fault of course. It can’t be these corporations that enslave people and destroy the environment. No, it’s the “left”. Great logic. Tell the kids that are making our shoes and clothes, “Don’t blame Nike, Blame the left.”.
Thomas Gardner said:
And tens of millions in the US are supporting of these policies.
Click to expand...
Great marketing effort. Remember the pet rock. Britney Spears is popular too (mmm).
Thomas Gardner said:
And so you don't condemn the Dictator but you condemn the parent.
Yes you do need to spell it out more.
Click to expand...
Firstly - I say, it just, not in your words.

Secondly - It’s a “duh”. Just like condemning child pornography. For some reason need it spelled out.
Thomas Gardner said:
How unfeeling of you.
Click to expand...
You still don't know me or hear me.
 
Yes but ...

shouldn't we try to solve problems without war in the 21st century?

And regarding germany, the constitution of the Federal Republic of Germany forbids even the preparation of war except for selfdefence when germany or its treaty partners are actively attacked. It is considered a crime to help anybody preparing an attack on another country or to not report knowledge. This constitution was established with the blessing of the four four powers.

Come to think of it, a war against terrorism sound like justified and holy war, so we could call it Djihad, can't we?

Regards

Volker
 
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