EOS-M > Nex (by far) - for *compact* + low light

And seriously... some of you guys need to at least wait for the product to be released, reviewed, and mastered by competent photographers before proclaiming its strengths and weaknesses.

If there is any constant in product announcements/releases, it's that something will invariably surprise you, some pleasantly, some annoyingly.
 
So, now we want to find this empirical customer willing to part with nearly a grand for a one-trick pony? Flash-less photos at 22mm f/2, hard to use at odd angles due to non-articulating screen, hard to use in open sunlight due to lack of any kind of VF, and potentially useless for action or active subjects like kids if AF is as slow as reported. Put on any lens other than the 22mm pancake or attach a flash and that compact factor goes out the window. And I shudder to think what the battery life is on this thing.

Be honest: are YOU planning to buy it? Cause I am definitely not. I got me a 60D for most occasions, and a 500HS for situations that need a tiny camera.
I'm not planning on buying it because I just never would have a camera that's not "jeans pocketable" with me when I need to take low light pics. dslr, m43rds - they're all just to big.

But it fits into the kind of camera I recommend for people who aren't as need for "jeans pocketable" as I am. I used to suggest the Samsung nx200/nx210, now there's an option that's $400 less.
Too expensive for an amateur, too crippled for an enthusiast is my opinion of EOS-M. It is almost like a message from Canon to anyone who was dragging their feet: Here's our MILC you been waiting for. it sucks. Now go buy a G1X or 650D.
Actually, as I explained in another thread I created here, it's the least expensive option you can buy right now. (The Panasonic gx1 with their f1.7 prime is also close, just $50 more).
 
At the moment, NEX is certainly not as small as it could be. If that is top priority, EOS-M wins.

However, a fixed prime that is "large aperture standard" is on NEX' lens roadmap for 2012. So it could still change in this year.
If Sony actually came out with a pancake/compact f2.0-or-better lens for the NEX, I agree that would definitely change the dynamic. I just know they don't have one yet, and the NEX has been out for years.
 
do you really want to use one of those tiny flash ? Not me.

My concern is the AF speed and the lack of a view finder.
Actually those "tiny flashes" can be quite good, especially the Panasonic and Sony units that can be tilted up as a bounce flash, this photo was taken using just a GF2 and its built in flash.



Nice! :-)
 
Your title assertion is odd and probably ignorant.
I see you have not provided any proof whatsoever to back that up when it comes to size.
As of right now, the NEX's SEL50f18 is the lowest f-stop optically-stabilized lens, period . Sony claims the stabilization gives a 4-stop advantage, realistically it's more like 3-2 stops.

http://www.stevehuffphoto.com/2011/12/10/the-sony-50-1-8-oss-e-mount-nex-lens-review-on-the-nex-7/
I have no doubt that's true, but it doesn't change the gigantic size difference between that lens and the Canon one - or the m43rds one - or the Samsung version...
Sure, image stabilization is applicable for more-or-less static subjects... but as a social camera, you're probably not shooting midnight gymnastics. You're probably shooting your slightly happy, slightly drunk friends.

(pic)

Or oddly static cats.

(pic)
I would prefer image stabilization, but again it doesn't make the lens smaller.

It's kind of funny that you would post those particular pics, as the general rule of thumb is that you need 1/35mm-equivalent-mm's to get a sharp pic without IS - the 50mm lens is 75mm-equivalent, and both pics are taken at 1/80.

In other words - you didn't need IS for those particular pics either.

With a 35mm-equivalent lens, you should need 1/35 for sharp pics - it's difficult to take pics of people below 1/30 without them blurring. They basically have to be sitting or laying down and not moving for it to work.
I've seen lots of people claim about how-so-and-so works so great in low light, "proving" it with photos of dubious darkness where they've got the ISO jacked up to whatever and the EXIF stripped (or showing stopped down, high shutter speed shooting), LOL.

The pupils don't lie as indicators of ambient light. (Ok, the girls might be a little drunk, but we certainly didn't drug the cat. :P)

Can the EOS-M grow into being a low-light monster? Sure. Canon would be stupid to ignore this usage of the MILC. And Canon is not stupid. But the currently announced lens offerings certainly does not justify that conclusion.
They do because of the size.

I'm not saying there aren't other advantages to the NEX, but if size + low light are your top two priorities then the EOS-M wins (the Panasonic gx1 is up there to).

The lenses that make the NEX competitive (or let's say even beat the EOS-M for arguments sake) are just to big is size is a top priority.

P.S. Don't get me wrong - if Sony came out with a NEX lens that did f2.0 or better than was as compact as the Canon/m43rds/Samsung stuff, that would completely change the equation. And I would love to see direct competition there. :-) Seriously! But it's just not there right now.
 
And seriously... some of you guys need to at least wait for the product to be released, reviewed, and mastered by competent photographers before proclaiming its strengths and weaknesses.

If there is any constant in product announcements/releases, it's that something will invariably surprise you, some pleasantly, some annoyingly.
Yeah, usually what happens is people spend eons arguing over some perceived flaw, then when the camera actually comes out it turns out that thing is just not a problem, but instead there's some other big problem...

Size doesn't really change though, which was mostly my point.
 
The Canon pancake is small but we dont know what the compromise is.
...
SOOOOO ........ there are more parts to the puzzle......
There are more parts to the puzzle, I don't disagree, but the NEX isn't even in the competition right now. Even if the Canon lens turned out to be unacceptable(which I would find nearly impossible to believe, Samsung did it with an APS-C sensor and Canon usually releases at least decent products), then the winner would be either the nx200 or the gx1 m43rds - still not the NEX, which would still be just plain to big.
Funny you say its to big. The Nex body are in a fact not so deep as the canon body. But it has a larger and better hand grip and therefore room for a larger battery. Canons 230 photos battery is just laughable. Try and put a L lens on it and it runs out of battery faster than you can say Sony Nex. Lens wise you cant compare the Zeiss fir NEX to this cheap Canon 22mm.

Kind regards

D
 
Your title assertion is odd and probably ignorant.
I see you have not provided any proof whatsoever to back that up when it comes to size.
And you have no proof whatsoever when it comes to the EOS-M's low light performance. You're going by theory that the 22/2.0 pancake is going to be excellent and will generate enough contrast for the AF to work reliably in the dark. It is still a hybrid (CDAF + PDAF) AF system, BTW. You don't even know if the EOS-M's ISOs are accurate (as they are not in the OM-D). Or that the sensor will generate enough DR for images to be pushed. So being that your low-light assertion has no leg to stand on yet (if at all, we'll see when the camera actually gets reviewed), why am I shackled to your other assertion?

Besides, the EOS-M body is relatively deep and tall. No MILC is that pocketable.
As of right now, the NEX's SEL50f18 is the lowest f-stop optically-stabilized lens, period . Sony claims the stabilization gives a 4-stop advantage, realistically it's more like 3-2 stops.

http://www.stevehuffphoto.com/2011/12/10/the-sony-50-1-8-oss-e-mount-nex-lens-review-on-the-nex-7/
I have no doubt that's true, but it doesn't change the gigantic size difference between that lens and the Canon one - or the m43rds one - or the Samsung version...
Again, the lens is only half the story. If you have to bring a flash for fill light (often necessary in social portraiture), then the 5N's folding flash is clearly more compact than the 90EX.
Sure, image stabilization is applicable for more-or-less static subjects... but as a social camera, you're probably not shooting midnight gymnastics. You're probably shooting your slightly happy, slightly drunk friends.

(pic)

Or oddly static cats.

(pic)
I would prefer image stabilization, but again it doesn't make the lens smaller.

It's kind of funny that you would post those particular pics, as the general rule of thumb is that you need 1/35mm-equivalent-mm's to get a sharp pic without IS - the 50mm lens is 75mm-equivalent, and both pics are taken at 1/80.

In other words - you didn't need IS for those particular pics either.
I think you're now confusing standard photography with the social photography I was pretty sure we were talking about. If people had all the time in the world to pose their subjects and get yourself set-up for a well-stanced, high-performance shot.. then hey. I can take hand-held pixel-sharp shots well below that rule-of thumb speed even without IS.





(hand-held, braced)

I mean, why not carry an all-out FF dSLR on a tripod then? If your social circumstances are totally okay with disrupting the camaraderie-at-hand for photography's sake, then by all means, who needs image stabilization? I'm sure you're staying totally sober too, right?

Those ladies popped out of a crowd walking opposite from where I was squeezing thought the crowd. Between when they realized I wanted to shoot them and the other lady squeezed in, that was more-or-less 3 seconds to take that shot. So damn right IS helped. And there are countless times where I have drunkenly shot beautiful images of my drunken friends having a ball. That is the essence of social shooting, of catching the spontaneous moment with less-than-perfect technique and not "I can post-up and do a 1/FL s exposure". Seriously, IS helps at any long-ish exposure speed.
With a 35mm-equivalent lens, you should need 1/35 for sharp pics - it's difficult to take pics of people below 1/30 without them blurring. They basically have to be sitting or laying down and not moving for it to work.
I've seen lots of people claim about how-so-and-so works so great in low light, "proving" it with photos of dubious darkness where they've got the ISO jacked up to whatever and the EXIF stripped (or showing stopped down, high shutter speed shooting), LOL.

The pupils don't lie as indicators of ambient light. (Ok, the girls might be a little drunk, but we certainly didn't drug the cat. :P)

Can the EOS-M grow into being a low-light monster? Sure. Canon would be stupid to ignore this usage of the MILC. And Canon is not stupid. But the currently announced lens offerings certainly does not justify that conclusion.
They do because of the size.

I'm not saying there aren't other advantages to the NEX, but if size + low light are your top two priorities then the EOS-M wins (the Panasonic gx1 is up there to).
You would need to bias quite a bit toward the size side of the equation for that to work. And then you would need to contend with the RX100.
The lenses that make the NEX competitive (or let's say even beat the EOS-M for arguments sake) are just to big is size is a top priority.
That is a statement I won't argue with. But the rub is that if size is the top priority, neither MILC wins. The high-performance P&S wins.
P.S. Don't get me wrong - if Sony came out with a NEX lens that did f2.0 or better than was as compact as the Canon/m43rds/Samsung stuff, that would completely change the equation. And I would love to see direct competition there. :-) Seriously! But it's just not there right now.
Frankly, further compactness in a high-performance MILC is overrated, IMHO. Compactness generally runs counter to ergonomics and usability. For me, there is the class of cameras that will fit in my pocket, and everything else that won't. Within the everything-else-that-won't class of cameras, the way (and weight) that it hangs around my neck is a bigger consideration than outright compactness.
 
The Canon pancake is small but we dont know what the compromise is.
...
SOOOOO ........ there are more parts to the puzzle......
There are more parts to the puzzle, I don't disagree, but the NEX isn't even in the competition right now. Even if the Canon lens turned out to be unacceptable(which I would find nearly impossible to believe, Samsung did it with an APS-C sensor and Canon usually releases at least decent products), then the winner would be either the nx200 or the gx1 m43rds - still not the NEX, which would still be just plain to big.
Funny you say its to big. The Nex body are in a fact not so deep as the canon body. But it has a larger and better hand grip and therefore room for a larger battery. Canons 230 photos battery is just laughable. Try and put a L lens on it and it runs out of battery faster than you can say Sony Nex. Lens wise you cant compare the Zeiss fir NEX to this cheap Canon 22mm.

Kind regards

D
Seriously, if you're going to comment, all you have to do is read the original post where it explains things very clearly.

The problem isn't the body. The problem is the lens size of any of the f2.0-or-better primes.
 
Omission fixed here.
Frankly, further compactness in a high-performance MILC is overrated, IMHO. Past a certain point , compactness generally runs counter to ergonomics and usability. For me, there is the class of cameras that will fit in my pocket, and everything else that won't. Within the everything-else-that-won't class of cameras, the way (and weight) that it hangs around my neck is a bigger consideration than outright compactness.
 
Your title assertion is odd and probably ignorant.
I see you have not provided any proof whatsoever to back that up when it comes to size.
And you have no proof whatsoever when it comes to the EOS-M's low light performance.
I don't need to, it's the same sensor that's in the t4i.
You're going by theory that the 22/2.0 pancake is going to be excellent and will generate enough contrast for the AF to work reliably in the dark.
Yeah. Others have already done it - I'm pretty sure Canon will come up with something that's at least adequate.
It is still a hybrid (CDAF + PDAF) AF system, BTW. You don't even know if the EOS-M's ISOs are accurate (as they are not in the OM-D).
?
Or that the sensor will generate enough DR for images to be pushed. So being that your low-light assertion has no leg to stand on, why am I shackled to your other assertion?
Lol, oh, sorry, I get it - you came in to start a fight.
Besides, the EOS-M body is relatively deep and tall. No MILC is that pocketable.
As of right now, the NEX's SEL50f18 is the lowest f-stop optically-stabilized lens, period . Sony claims the stabilization gives a 4-stop advantage, realistically it's more like 3-2 stops.

http://www.stevehuffphoto.com/2011/12/10/the-sony-50-1-8-oss-e-mount-nex-lens-review-on-the-nex-7/
I have no doubt that's true, but it doesn't change the gigantic size difference between that lens and the Canon one - or the m43rds one - or the Samsung version...
Again, the lens is only half the story. If you have to bring a flash for fill light (often necessary in social portraiture), then the 5N's folding flash is clearly more compact than the 90EX.
You shouldn't need a flash with a dslr sensor and an f2.0 lens, but I do agree that the lack of a built in flash is rather annoying.
Sure, image stabilization is applicable for more-or-less static subjects... but as a social camera, you're probably not shooting midnight gymnastics. You're probably shooting your slightly happy, slightly drunk friends.

(pic)

Or oddly static cats.

(pic)
I would prefer image stabilization, but again it doesn't make the lens smaller.

It's kind of funny that you would post those particular pics, as the general rule of thumb is that you need 1/35mm-equivalent-mm's to get a sharp pic without IS - the 50mm lens is 75mm-equivalent, and both pics are taken at 1/80.

In other words - you didn't need IS for those particular pics either.
I think you're now confusing standard photography with the social photography I was pretty sure we were talking about. If people had all the time in the world to pose their subjects and get yourself set-up for a well-stanced, high-perforamnce shot.. then hey. I can take hand-held pixel-sharp shots well below that rule-of thumb speed even without IS.

(pic)

(hand-held, braced)

I mean, why not carry an all-out FF dSLR on a tripod then? If your social circumstances are totally okay with disrupting the camaraderie-at-hand for photography's sake, then by all means, who needs image stabilization? I'm sure you're staying totally sober too, right?

Those ladies popped out of a crowd walking opposite from where I was squeezing thought the crowd. Between when they realized I wanted to shoot them and the other lady squeezed in, that was more-or-less 3 seconds to take that shot. So damn right IS helped. And there are countless times where I have drunkenly shot beautiful images of my drunken friends having a ball. That is the essence of social shooting, of catching the moment and not "I can post-up and do a 1/FL s exposure". Seriously, IS helps at any long-ish exposure speed.
It's odd, as you just argued my point to a T - that for social photography, you're not going to use a shutter speed slow enough for IS the be terribly helpful anyways. You don't take social pictures at 1/10, 1/30 is the minimum, but really you want at least 1/60, where the shutter speed should eliminate camera shake without IS.
 
I'm not saying there aren't other advantages to the NEX, but if size + low light are your top two priorities then the EOS-M wins (the Panasonic gx1 is up there to).
You would need to bias quite a bit toward the size side of the equation for that to work.
200-300% difference in size is that exactly.
And then you would need to contend with the RX100.
Absolutely true, and also the s100 - it depends on where your size threshold is.

The s100 is considered "jeans pocketable". The rx100 - there's some debate about whether it is or isn't, but it's a close call for it's size.

The EOS-M with pancake lens, most m43rds with pancake lens, the x100, the NEX with it's f2.8 pancake, etc etc - are all kind of "jacket or purse pocketable".

But put any of the f1.8 lenses on the nex, and it gets 200-300% bigger.
The lenses that make the NEX competitive (or let's say even beat the EOS-M for arguments sake) are just to big is size is a top priority.
That is a statement I won't argue with. But the rub is that if size is the top priority, neither MILC wins. The high-performance P&S wins.
And I generally agree, but it's a question of how much size you have available vs the lighting conditions.

I have an s100 - great camera - but in some lighting conditions it simply cannot take a decent picture, where a dslr-sized sensor and f2.0-or-better lens could. And even that's at 1/60, try to take pics of kids running around and you need a lot more.

Personally, anything bigger than jeans pocketable size is mostly to big for me. But not everyone is in my situation - some people have purses (their's or their wife's), bags, they're hiking or something where they have pockets - etc.
P.S. Don't get me wrong - if Sony came out with a NEX lens that did f2.0 or better than was as compact as the Canon/m43rds/Samsung stuff, that would completely change the equation. And I would love to see direct competition there. :-) Seriously! But it's just not there right now.
Frankly, further compactness in a high-performance MILC is overrated, IMHO. Compactness generally runs counter to ergonomics and usability. For me, there is the class of cameras that will fit in my pocket, and everything else that won't.
Actually, personally, I'm in the same camp.
Within the everything-else-that-won't class of cameras, the way (and weight) that it hangs around my neck is a bigger consideration than outright compactness.
That's definitely your call to make, and there's nothing wrong with that. But I created this thread about the most compact camera you could get with a dslr-equivalent sensor and low light prime.

The NEX is 2-3 times larger with an equivalent lens than the other options.

The size difference definitely makes a difference if you're carrying the camera in a purse, jacket pocket, or side pocket of a bag.
 
This simply means that you are not the "P&S" crowd. May be EOS-M's target audience is not "P&S" crowd?
do you really want to use one of those tiny flash ? Not me.

My concern is the AF speed and the lack of a view finder.
 
Then we can only hope there will be enough "rich" people who are willing to spend this money.

Anyway, when you emphasise you are "rich", you have already shown the problem of this camera. You ordered it because you have money, not because it has the best price/value ratio in the market. However, how many of the people in the general public are as "rich" as you are?
that's the one trick i'm looking for. i'm rich but i can afford to upgrade to it from my S90 and i did pre-order it.
So, now we want to find this empirical customer willing to part with nearly a grand for a one-trick pony ? Flash-less photos at 22mm f/2, hard to use at odd angles due to non-articulating screen, hard to use in open sunlight due to lack of any kind of VF, and potentially useless for action or active subjects like kids if AF is as slow as reported. Put on any lens other than the 22mm pancake or attach a flash and that compact factor goes out the window. And I shudder to think what the battery life is on this thing.

Be honest: are YOU planning to buy it? Cause I am definitely not. I got me a 60D for most occasions, and a 500HS for situations that need a tiny camera.

Too expensive for an amateur, too crippled for an enthusiast is my opinion of EOS-M. It is almost like a message from Canon to anyone who was dragging their feet: Here's our MILC you been waiting for. it sucks. Now go buy a G1X or 650D.
 
Your right, it's too darn big when using an adapter for Sony DSLR lenses like the 35mm F1.4 .



The EOS M is a little smaller when using the smallest Canon 40mm F2.8 pancake DSLR lens with adapter.



The Pentax K-01 is larger but looks like a normal camera with 50mm F1.4 since it does not need to use an adapter for any of the 25 million K-mount lenses since the 70's and has IS with all of them.

 
Your title assertion is odd and probably ignorant.
I see you have not provided any proof whatsoever to back that up when it comes to size.
And you have no proof whatsoever when it comes to the EOS-M's low light performance.
I don't need to, it's the same sensor that's in the t4i.
And DXOMark hasn't given us any clue as to its DR and low-light ISO performance yet. Not even DPR has posted a review yet. If we go by past (T3i) and current (5DMk3) Canon sensors, then we shouldn't expect much. But the T4i sensor goes to ISO25600, which is new for Canon... perhaps judgement needs to be reserved. And that includes you.
You're going by theory that the 22/2.0 pancake is going to be excellent and will generate enough contrast for the AF to work reliably in the dark.
Yeah. Others have already done it - I'm pretty sure Canon will come up with something that's at least adequate.
Actually, only Sony and Fuji have done it so far with a flange distance as short as 18mm on a APS-C-scale sensor. This is a different optical problem than what dSLR makers are used to solving.
It is still a hybrid (CDAF + PDAF) AF system, BTW. You don't even know if the EOS-M's ISOs are accurate (as they are not in the OM-D).
?
The ability of a lens to generate contrast is extremely important for a system that is even partially dependent on CDAF. And if you have tested enough lenses, you will know that not all are equal in this respect. Again, the short flange distance to the wide sensor is not a trivial optical problem.

ISO accuracy - the OM-D's ISO ratings are grossly exaggerated, therefore it actually does not possess the ISO range that it nominally has. We don't know for the EOS-M yet until it is tested.
Or that the sensor will generate enough DR for images to be pushed. So being that your low-light assertion has no leg to stand on, why am I shackled to your other assertion?
Lol, oh, sorry, I get it - you came in to start a fight.
No, I came in to make a point and reveal your unfounded assumptions.
 
It's odd, as you just argued my point to a T - that for social photography, you're not going to use a shutter speed slow enough for IS the be terribly helpful anyways. You don't take social pictures at 1/10, 1/30 is the minimum, but really you want at least 1/60, where the shutter speed should eliminate camera shake without IS.
Your misunderstanding of my point (and consequent belief that I am supporting your point) stems from your seemingly binary concept of shake-avoidance. You seem to think that past a certain shutter speed for a certain FL, shake is a non-factor. That is false, because the rule-of-thumb is dependent on the idea of a "typical" amount of shake that a photographer is exhibiting. You can probably see that this assumption does not hold up, say, if you put a camera in the hands of somebody of having a seizure. Ok, that's an extreme example. Point being is that any movement of the photographer (or of the subject) is committed to a photographic system, but that the "typical" amount of movement of an attentive photographer is not enough to manifest a detectable difference given the resolution limits of a real-life optical system following the 1/FL s rule. But what if that "typical" amount of movement assumption doesn't hold? What if the shot is a snapshot with no preparation time? What if the photographer is shooting from a non-standard stance? A non-standard hold? What if the photographer's level of intoxication is non-standard as well (LOL)?

This is when any sort of stabilization helps quite a bit even over the 1/FL s rule.

Again, this is why I made the point about social photography versus normal photography.
 

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