Anyone interested in the Canon Mirrorless???

The rumored specs of this camera look a lot like Nex, even a hht mode and HDR mode. Nice going Canon, but I stick to the Nex!

• APS-C CMOS sensor 18 million pixels
• The image processing engine DIGIC5
• Hybrid CMOS AF in combination with phase-contrast
• Video Servo AF, Servo AF, AF touch
• The range is equivalent ISO 25600 ISO100-12800, in the expansion
• To 30 seconds shutter speed is 1/4000, bulb, flash sync is 1/200 sec
• Second continuous shooting speed is 4.3 frames /
• 1.04 million dot LCD monitor 3.0-type wide, touch panel
• The media SD / SDHC / SDXC (corresponding UHS-I)
• Video is 1920×1080 30p/25p/24p, 1280×720 60p/50p, 640×480 30p/25p

Method – video compression MPEG-4 AVC/H.264, audio Linear PCM, MOV format

• Available in over 60 species of EF lens mount adapter EF-EOS M
• Hand-held Twilight mode synthesized by the continuous shooting at a shutter speed four with less camera shake
• HDR mode to synthesize three different exposure
• Multi-shot noise reduction function to reduce the noise by combining the four images
• Creative filters
• The size is x 66.5mm (width) 108.6mm (height) x 32.3mm (depth)
• The weight (body only) 262g, (including battery and memory card) 298g
• Kit lens EF-M22mm STM, EF-M18-55mm IS STM
• Comes with a mount adapter and EF-EOS M 90EX Speedlite kit of some

...the most obvious being:

• no eye-level EVF;
• no built-in flash;
• no fully articulated LCD;
• the lack of essential external controls for major functions;

what remains to be seen are:

• flange distance (depth of 32.3mm might suggest a possibility that it is longer than 28mm = pretty bad for mounting M-glass)?
• did they implement FP and MA (focus peaking and manual assist zoom)?

however, the adapter to mount existing EF/EF-S lenses is a
huge plus, esp. as potentially the presence of on-sensor PDAF
can outweight a lot of negatives - provided that it will work really
well, esp. with those 60+ EF lenses ,

jpr2

gfrensen said:

The rumored specs of this camera look a lot like Nex, even a hht mode and HDR mode. Nice going Canon, but I stick to the Nex!

• APS-C CMOS sensor 18 million pixels
• The image processing engine DIGIC5
• Hybrid CMOS AF in combination with phase-contrast
• Video Servo AF, Servo AF, AF touch
• The range is equivalent ISO 25600 ISO100-12800, in the expansion
• To 30 seconds shutter speed is 1/4000, bulb, flash sync is 1/200 sec
• Second continuous shooting speed is 4.3 frames /
• 1.04 million dot LCD monitor 3.0-type wide, touch panel
• The media SD / SDHC / SDXC (corresponding UHS-I)
• Video is 1920×1080 30p/25p/24p, 1280×720 60p/50p, 640×480 30p/25p

Method – video compression MPEG-4 AVC/H.264, audio Linear PCM, MOV format

• Available in over 60 species of EF lens mount adapter EF-EOS M
• Hand-held Twilight mode synthesized by the continuous shooting at a shutter speed four with less camera shake
• HDR mode to synthesize three different exposure
• Multi-shot noise reduction function to reduce the noise by combining the four images
• Creative filters
• The size is x 66.5mm (width) 108.6mm (height) x 32.3mm (depth)
• The weight (body only) 262g, (including battery and memory card) 298g
• Kit lens EF-M22mm STM, EF-M18-55mm IS STM
• Comes with a mount adapter and EF-EOS M 90EX Speedlite kit of some

Click to expand...

--
~
street candids (non-interactive):
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/qmusaget/sets/72157609618638319/
music and dance:
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/qmusaget/sets/72157600341265280/
B&W:
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/qmusaget/sets/72157623306407882/
wildlife & macro:
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/qmusaget/sets/72157600341377106/
interactive street:
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/qmusaget/sets/72157623181919323/

Comments and critique are always welcome!
~

jpr2 said:

...are two sided swords esp. in FL-limited or reach-limited circumstances

Click to expand...

"Reach" is not a function of crop-factor but pixel pitch.

jpr2 said:

• this is not yet very prominent a problem within MILC arena, as there are really no bodies capable of truly fast action shooting

Click to expand...

Nikon-1 series is quite perfect for the football (soccer) mums - unless 60 fps is not enough

jpr2 said:

(esp. as it is not very likely Canon would follow SLT/pelicle route), but as soon as a mature on-sensor PDAF solution will materialize,

Click to expand...

The Canon AFAIK has PDAF (though not necessarily that great implementation), as does the Nikon-1. Of course implementing it in the sensor loses pixels for actual image capture, so the implementation is likely to be compromised.

jpr2 said:

the issue would move to a forefront - just like it did in a sports/wildlife sector of [d]SLR - so a high IQ sensor in a APS-C form factor would be on clear advantage here = an optimal compromise between sensor's minimal acceptable size, optics driven boundaries on lens design, and IQ ,

Click to expand...

No, that is not true.

If the sensor were bigger, the lens could be both slower and of less quality to allow for equal image quality (and properties) - in order to match a full frame 50/1.8 lens, a very easy and cheap lens of very high quality (I'm talking of rangefinder glass), one would have to make a 1.5x crop lens of 33/1.2 - significantly more complex lens to design and manufacture and it would likely be larger and heavier, more expensive and a lesser performer (since one needs to enlarge the image more). A good example of this is the 25/0.95 for the m4/3 - a big and complex lens which is beaten by the least expensive 50/1.8 lenses on FF while offering the same FOV and DOF (and light collecting ability).

Size is not really an issue even if the camera is full frame - have a look at lenses like Cosina Voigtländer 15mm or 35/2.5 (or 1.4), or 40/1.4 or any decent 50 made for a rangefinder - the lenses are from small to tiny in size. Sure they are manual focus, but implementing an AF version would still allow for a very small lens to be made (Contax G-series lenses are also small and AF).

There are really only two problems with full frame on mirrorless at the moment:

1. Cost - the FF sensors are expensive to make
2. Edge performance - due to properties of silicon and the current sensor technology there would be significant vignetting and color fringing when used with near symmetrical wide lenses (like NEX-7 & CV15, but worse)

--
Quack!

The Canon Mirrorless "copied" the sensor of the Canon T4i/650D, and some of the features of that camera.

BTW, I understand that nobody wants to copy the NEX menu system.

jpr2 said:

• no eye-level EVF;
• no built-in flash;
• no fully articulated LCD;
• the lack of essential external controls for major functions;

what remains to be seen are:

• flange distance (depth of 32.3mm might suggest a possibility that it is longer than 28mm = pretty bad for mounting M-glass)?
• did they implement FP and MA (focus peaking and manual assist zoom)?

however, the adapter to mount existing EF/EF-S lenses is a
huge plus, esp. as potentially the presence of on-sensor PDAF
can outweight a lot of negatives - provided that it will work really
well, esp. with those 60+ EF lenses ,

jpr2
Comments and critique are always welcome!
~

Click to expand...

For me, the show stoppers are:

...the most obvious being:

• no articulated LCD of any sort

what remains to be seen are:

• flange distance (depth of 32.3mm might suggest a possibility that it is longer than 28mm = pretty bad for mounting M-glass)?
• did they implement FP and MA (focus peaking and manual assist zoom)?

I am a current Canon (10+ L's) and NEX-7 owner (using Leica lenses only). A Canon-M comparable to NEX-7 would be a dream! Pass this EOS-M1 round, waiting for M2 . . .

ooja3k said:

I am curious how many of you are anxiously awaiting the Canon announcement???? With an APS-C it may be a true contender to the Nex (As opposed to the M4/3's)

Click to expand...

Hate to burst your bubble, but micro43 IS a true contender, and has been for a while.

The current generation of micro43 cameras can go head to head with NEX for IQ, and beat NEX when it comes to video.

My GX1 will record 1080P30 until the memory card is full, and now at 44 Mbps.

--

The greatest of mankind's criminals are those who delude themselves into thinking they have done 'the right thing.'

• Rayna Butler

No ibis, which I miss on Nex also, and an lacking 1080p60 it looks like, so no thanks.

...for longer FLs (btw. in my worst nightmares I didn't expect that
this bane, which haunted Canon FF forum for so many years, will
now play havoc for MILCs ); why should we care abt. equivalence
settings in FL-limited circumstances with, say, 400/5.6L ??

Aku Ankka said:

jpr2 said:

...are two sided swords esp. in FL-limited or reach-limited circumstances

Click to expand...

"Reach" is not a function of crop-factor but pixel pitch.

Click to expand...

only if you'd be willing to assume an infinite lens resolution, then perhaps
there will be times that 8mm lens would be your supertele - assuming
infinite pitch as well, of course ;

anyway, your argument just reinforces the OP statement: with a pitch
of "lowly" 7d one would need 47 Mpx FF to get it approximately as high a
pitch = even D800 is nowhere close to that ;

Aku Ankka said:

Aku Ankka said:

• this is not yet very prominent a problem within MILC arena, as there are really no bodies capable of truly fast action shooting

Click to expand...

Nikon-1 series is quite perfect for the football (soccer) mums - unless 60 fps is not enough

Click to expand...

N1 can't do a dynamic action tracking at 60 fps - check your facts ;
it just focuses once, and then just fires away: good for spray and prey,
but it is bound to miss focus as soon as the action will move away...
even with hiding AF errors within its huge DOF due to 2.7x crop factor;

jpr2
--
~
street candids (non-interactive):
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/qmusaget/sets/72157609618638319/
music and dance:
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/qmusaget/sets/72157600341265280/
B&W:
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/qmusaget/sets/72157623306407882/
wildlife & macro:
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/qmusaget/sets/72157600341377106/
interactive street:
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/qmusaget/sets/72157623181919323/

Comments and critique are always welcome!
~

Yawn, oh well, a 650D in mirrorless body for the Powershoot upgrader ...

Sorry, don't see much fanfare and excitement this way. In fact among the Mirrorless Mfr I have only been able to see Panasonic and Sony delivering on innovating and exploiting the mirrorless form factor. The NEX-7 do not try to re-iterate the SLR operating and usage mode and there is things like Tri-nevi, together with say the 50 OSS and the Zeiss 24, that's how I like the mirrorless to be. Against that we have the like of Olympus OM-D E-M5, sure if I am looking for a compact setup I really think the E-M5 live up to the name OM-D, a digital platform modelled against the old OM, but its there that it's good and bad, for sticking with the old model instead of delivering new. I am not saying its bad, just not the way it would go forward. If I like SLR operation and usage, I might as well get a DSLR. The OM-D is about those wanting that but do not want the bulk and weight. perfectly fine, and there's many going for it.

Sony and Panasonic really did the photographers some service by the like of GH series and NEX-5N / NEX-7. Now what we need is some more quality performing lens instead of slow zoom.

--

• Franka -

Very good post, nothing exciting in the new Canon mirrorless. I agree with most of the points you make.

Franka T.L. said:

Yawn, oh well, a 650D in mirrorless body for the Powershoot upgrader ...

Sorry, don't see much fanfare and excitement this way. In fact among the Mirrorless Mfr I have only been able to see Panasonic and Sony delivering on innovating and exploiting the mirrorless form factor. The NEX-7 do not try to re-iterate the SLR operating and usage mode and there is things like Tri-nevi, together with say the 50 OSS and the Zeiss 24, that's how I like the mirrorless to be. Against that we have the like of Olympus OM-D E-M5, sure if I am looking for a compact setup I really think the E-M5 live up to the name OM-D, a digital platform modelled against the old OM, but its there that it's good and bad, for sticking with the old model instead of delivering new. I am not saying its bad, just not the way it would go forward. If I like SLR operation and usage, I might as well get a DSLR. The OM-D is about those wanting that but do not want the bulk and weight. perfectly fine, and there's many going for it.

Click to expand...

I think the Oly om-d has more inovation then the Canon. I think the IBIS system is very inovative. I will not buy this camera for 4 reasons: I love my Nex 5, I don't want to spend thatr kind of $$ for a camera (that is why I don't wnat the Nex 7 too), I don't like the grip of the camera and don't want to spend extra $$ on an external one. I think the camera looks like a toy, the build quality is excelent, so it don't feel like a toy, just look like one. The buttons on the camera are all very small, not good for me..

Franka T.L. said:

Sony and Panasonic really did the photographers some service by the like of GH series and NEX-5N / NEX-7. Now what we need is some more quality performing lens instead of slow zoom.

--

• Franka -

Click to expand...

jpr2 said:

...for longer FLs (btw. in my worst nightmares I didn't expect that
this bane, which haunted Canon FF forum for so many years, will
now play havoc for MILCs ); why should we care abt. equivalence
settings in FL-limited circumstances with, say, 400/5.6L ??

Click to expand...

Well, is doesn't really have to care of anything

But isn't is good to know that a FF 400/5.6 equals m4/3 200/2.8? No harm is knowing it, I am sure.

jpr2 said:

Aku Ankka said:

jpr2 said:

...are two sided swords esp. in FL-limited or reach-limited circumstances

Click to expand...

"Reach" is not a function of crop-factor but pixel pitch.

Click to expand...

only if you'd be willing to assume an infinite lens resolution,

Click to expand...

No. Pixel pitch and focal length determine the "reach". Not crop-factor and focal length. Lens "resolution" isn't part of that formula. (Quotes are there because lenses don't have a metric called resoluton). Having finer sampling of the image will increase resolution, even if the lens is very bad or diffraction is heavy. (Of course there may be diminishing returns in using a finer pixel pitch.)

jpr2 said:

then perhaps
there will be times that 8mm lens would be your supertele - assuming
infinite pitch as well, of course ;

Click to expand...

There is the problem that the focal length is part of the "reach formula". Trying to do with a short lens will run into limitation that diffraction poses earlier than using a longer lens.

jpr2 said:

anyway, your argument just reinforces the OP statement: with a pitch
of "lowly" 7d one would need 47 Mpx FF to get it approximately as high a
pitch = even D800 is nowhere close to that ;

Click to expand...

Well, I am not on any side on Canon vs. Nikon vs. whatever, but on the side of facts . It is true that 7D has more "reach" than D800. The linear resolution is about 13% higher. I would not call 13% as "nowhere close to it"

jpr2 said:

jpr2 said:

jpr2 said:

• this is not yet very prominent a problem within MILC arena, as there are really no bodies capable of truly fast action shooting

Click to expand...

Nikon-1 series is quite perfect for the football (soccer) mums - unless 60 fps is not enough

Click to expand...

N1 can't do a dynamic action tracking at 60 fps - check your facts ;

Click to expand...

I didn't claim it does, so I don't need to check those facts But one does not always need tracking, especially since the N-1 cameras offer somewhat wide DOF even wide open and the 30 frame buffer fills up in half a second.

With focus tracking it doesn 10fps. Looking at this sites simple AF test, it seems to track quite well. (Sure it's not a top pro performer, but certainly better than most if not all other mirrorless in tracking cause of the PDAF.)

--
Quack!

Seems Nikon and Canon want to protect their SLR sales by releasing crippled EVILs.

This look like its targeted for P&Sers looking to spend more money just for the heck of it.

Looks like I am sticking with the NEX 7.

SONY more lenses PLEASE!!

The fact that the Canon does not have a tiltable screen is a killer. A tiltable screen is an absolute must on a mirrorless IMHO.

wll

Having seen the stats and pricing, it's not enough camera for my purchases. Interesting that Kipon announced a Canon to NEX or mf3 lens adapter today.

I'm not sure which model Sony started with. I assume the NEX3. They built on the popularity of the more consumer friendly models. Looks the same here with Canon. If and when Canon comes up with an equivalent NEX7 model, I'll reconsider. Else I'm extra happy with the NEX system.
--
Canon 40D. Canon 50mm f1.4, canon 135mm 2.8/soft focus, Canon 70-
200 f4L, Canon 24-105L. Fuji X-100. Coming Soon: Sony Nex-7

Absolutely. I like to shoot from my chest, not hitting other people's face. Having a lot of fun with my little Hassy aka NEX-7 in the last six months.

wll said:

The fact that the Canon does not have a tiltable screen is a killer. A tiltable screen is an absolute must on a mirrorless IMHO.

wll

Click to expand...

Err.......No

dellaaa said:

Seems Nikon and Canon want to protect their SLR sales by releasing crippled EVILs.

Click to expand...

Hardly. They are different systems. Why would Canon or Nikon protect other corporation's SLR sales by creating crippled competition.

Besides, Nikon-1 system has two cameras of which one has a viewfinder.

And this is only the first Canon mirrorless - it certainly makes sense to release first the body which will sell the most (ie. entry level). There will be more bodies later on.

What is wrong with the Canon camera is that it's overpriced for what it is.

dellaaa said:

This look like its targeted for P&Sers looking to spend more money just for the heck of it.

Click to expand...

Conventional P&S cameras are a dying breed because of the cell phones. This is why the appearance of P&S cameras wiith larger sensors. The mirrorless offers another way of getting better image quality than the phone delivers while still having a compact size. Most who buy such a camera are not after EVF, but have other priorities (size with lens, cost, good enough image quality).

dellaaa said:

Looks like I am sticking with the NEX 7.

Click to expand...

I wonder if you are as critical at Sony and the other corporations for offering entry level products?

--
Quack!

No thank you.