Group photo.. out of focus...

Greetings...

i'm having some difficulty in composing correct setting for group photos.. and photos are always out-of-focus.....can you please help?

[1] if the group photo in semi-circle then - either people at edge will be in the focus or people in the middle will be in focus, rest of the out-of-focus or blur !

[2] if people in sitting/standing in row - only front-row will in focus - as you move back to row - it will be out-of-focus...

i tried with manual (with higher f stop like f11..), auto, portrait, close-up setting on my camera but no joy... i tried to ensure the lighting is also correct (using flash 480ex) but no joy...

Camera - Canon 50D,
lens - 18-200mm and 50mm

i reckon i'm doing some silly mistakes - any idea how to improve this please?

thanks for your help....

cheers
venu

You probably need to stop down more. That is use f8 or f11. If that gives too low shutter speed then move the iso up to 400 or 800.

It would help to know what settings you are using. Good luck

What you describe is almost certainly due to the depth of field being to narrow so you need to go with a higher aperture number. Also, when shooting multiple row try focusing on the second row instead of the first.

--
Dan
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I love my girlfriend, my dog and my canon 7D 5DIII - even though none of them ever do what I tell them

I am learning photo graphee - see the results at http://www.danmarchant.com

other than that, I agree with you and a pic from OP with shooting info would be nice

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Nothing to see here ...

Matt said:

other than that, I agree with you and a pic from OP with shooting info would be nice

Click to expand...

Oops I'm guilty of not reading all the way through the post. It drives me nuts when others do that. Sorry.

Matt105483 said:

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Nothing to see here ...

Click to expand...

Yes, it may be operator error.

Cameras today are superb, very well advanced, but it still takes some learning to do things right.

I strongly suggest getting a book or two on general photography, to compliment that wonderful camera you have.

thanks. will try this...
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Cheers,
VB

thanks... will upload the photo with info..
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Cheers,
VB

You said you were using an 18-200 lens, but you didn't mention the focal length you used to shoot the photo. So we have no way to know what you did.

You probably need to get closer and shoot with a wider angle setting in order to increase the depth of field.

For example, shooting at 28mm from 20 feet away at f8, your depth of field would be from 7 feet to infinity. I don't know any reason why you cannot get a good focus on the entire group unless you are just not focusing carefully. If you have 3 rows of people, you should be able to get all of them in focus.

Good luck...

Bharadwaj said:

Greetings...

i'm having some difficulty in composing correct setting for group photos.. and photos are always out-of-focus.....can you please help?

[1] if the group photo in semi-circle then - either people at edge will be in the focus or people in the middle will be in focus, rest of the out-of-focus or blur !

[2] if people in sitting/standing in row - only front-row will in focus - as you move back to row - it will be out-of-focus...

i tried with manual (with higher f stop like f11..), auto, portrait, close-up setting on my camera but no joy... i tried to ensure the lighting is also correct (using flash 480ex) but no joy...

Camera - Canon 50D,
lens - 18-200mm and 50mm

i reckon i'm doing some silly mistakes - any idea how to improve this please?

thanks for your help....

cheers
venu

Click to expand...

--
Photoblog at: http://timrucciphotography.blogspot.com/
Gallery at: http://www.timrucci.com

I see two problems, both related to depth-of-field

First, the lenses of cameras are designed to focus in a flat plain. If you arrange the subjects in a semi-circle they occupy more depth do you need a greater depth-of-field to get them all in focus.

With the subjects in three straight rows, if the first row is in focus and the center and back out of focus then you don't have a sufficient depth-of-field or the camera is focusing in front of the subjects.

The answer to arrange the subjects in straight lines and to close the lens down to give you a greater depth-of-field.

This depth-of-field table should help you figure out the best combination of focal length and aperture. Remember that the depth-of-field extends 1/3 of the distance in front of the subject and 2/3 of the distance behind the subject.

http://www.dofmaster.com/doftable.html

Note that with a 50mm equivalent focal length (32mm on a APS-C sensor camera) and at f/8 the depth-of-field is about 10' if you are 16' from the subjects. That should be more than sufficient.

Any thoughts here may apply to the OP's concerns.

The 7D will shoot with no focus lock when it's set to AI Servo, AI focus. I've had a near disaster by that fact recently, with a group shot at the altar after a wedding. The spot focus looked centered on the bride's bouquet and was reported so later in DPP, but the camera actually focused on the altar behind and above. I'd guess the camera's focus spot report is worthless.

In the low light with some flash fill, EXIF data says it was set to f/5.6, ISO 1600, IS lens at 1/60 and 18mm; DOF theoretically was 5 ft to infinity; subjects in the middle of the range. Autofocus set to expanded spot.

This was not motion blur - the altar 20 feet back and about 1 EV brighter was nicely sharp ten shots in a row but not the subjects. I think the settings were adequate except for needing a little larger aperture and now I'm thinking, use Single Shot autofocus for less risk.

But I'm puzzled as to why the group is OOF with large DOF and the focus spot centered on them as reported in the playback on DPP. The camera didn't have an apparent failure - all functions including autofocus were perfect in brighter light for 100s of shots later and ever since. Did low light on subjects and brighter light on altar affect this in some way?

This was not my first wedding - about the 25th. Must understand this before next time, if there is one. TIA for any thoughts.

as in my post, i have tried upto f11... but unable to make it why i cannot get a fully focused group, may be u guys can point-out my mistakes...

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Cheers,
VB

Regardless of how many times I re-read your original post, I know I could achieve OOF results like yours.

With some work and experience you might get them all in focus...........it would really help if you posted sample images from this (or a similar) shoot.

There happens to be a relationship between DOF and aperture and lenses and distances, and more.

sorry will post the photo... the photo i have (and in question) has kids included - so i have to take their parents permission before posting them !!

but will post the another group photo soon ...thanks for help and interest..
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Cheers,
VB

Venu Bharadwaj said:

as in my post, i have tried upto f11... but unable to make it why i cannot get a fully focused group, may be u guys can point-out my mistakes...

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Cheers,
VB

Click to expand...

It sounds like Don Dement's problem and your problem may be related.

Something I didn't think of earlier is AF type. Matrix AF is very unreliable since it tends to pick out the closest object or the one with the greatest contrast.

For most subjects the only focus modes I trust with my 7D are Single Point and Spot AF.

For moving subjects using Zone AF with AI Servo AF is a good choice.

"so i have to take their parents permission before posting them"

jirre, is that really required?

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Kobus

Venu Bharadwaj said:

as in my post, i have tried upto f11... but unable to make it why i cannot get a fully focused group, may be u guys can point-out my mistakes...

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Cheers,
VB

Click to expand...

I think you misunderstood what I said. If you shoot at the wider end of the lens, like 20mm or 24mm, you'll get a lot more depth of field, regardless of your aperture setting. While a narrower aperture also gives more depth of field, I was trying to suggest you shoot at a wider angle because that's the easiest way to get more depth of field.
--
Photoblog at: http://timrucciphotography.blogspot.com/
Gallery at: http://www.timrucci.com

Hi Venu,

Don't really know the problem, but, just some sparse suggestions.

For an average group photo, it may be helpful to have a focal length of around 30-35mm or even wider on your 50D. I'd avoid f11 if I can help it, as for most lenses that is where diffraction may set in.

As for metering, any mode BUT spot - if it is biased on a subject wearing light clothing, all your other subjects will be underexposed and vice versa.

For group photo, flash fill always help and a good flash is invaluable in the absence of which use your pop up.

And last, hardly least, camera shake - the antithesis of a sharp photographic output, use a tripod.

If all else fail, ask another guy to take the photograph! Kidding...

Let us know how it works out. Good luck.

Sailor Blue said:

I see two problems, both related to depth-of-field

First, the lenses of cameras are designed to focus in a flat plain. If you arrange the subjects in a semi-circle they occupy more depth do you need a greater depth-of-field to get them all in focus.

Click to expand...

If I understand correctly, a flat plain of focus means that the subjects directly in front of the camera along with those extending straight out on either side would be in focus, regardless that the distance from the camera to them has increased?

Sailor Blue said:

With the subjects in three straight rows, if the first row is in focus and the center and back out of focus then you don't have a sufficient depth-of-field or the camera is focusing in front of the subjects.

Click to expand...

How would one determine if it is due to front focusing when examining the photo?

Sailor Blue said:

The answer to arrange the subjects in straight lines and to close the lens down to give you a greater depth-of-field.

This depth-of-field table should help you figure out the best combination of focal length and aperture. Remember that the depth-of-field extends 1/3 of the distance in front of the subject and 2/3 of the distance behind the subject.

Click to expand...

So does one focus on the middle row with the 1/3rd 2/3rd rule, or on the front row?

Sailor Blue said:

http://www.dofmaster.com/doftable.html

Note that with a 50mm equivalent focal length (32mm on a APS-C sensor camera) and at f/8 the depth-of-field is about 10' if you are 16' from the subjects. That should be more than sufficient.

Click to expand...

Using the dimensional field of view calculator http://www.tawbaware.com/maxlyons/calc.htm at a distance of 16 feet using the 50mm lens at f/8, you must have all the subjects within 7 feet of width in each row, 3 feet 6 inches on each side of center.

Photo itself might not be necessary. Examine one problem photo EXIF data, and post:
focal length, aperture, shutter speed, ISO.
Also, try to recall how far you were from the subjects.