Will Fugifilm be going the way like Kodak

RedFox88 said:

Faintandfuzzy said:

RedFox88 said:

Faintandfuzzy said:

Ektar and Portra are my goto films for weddings, landscape and portraiture in color. For B&W, it's TMax, FP4, HP5, Efke 50 and Adox 20. I still have a few hundred sheets of Velvia that I rarely use. 4x5 Ektar 100 get's me grain free 32x40 prints...so I'm happy.

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Happy? Really? You said you hardly do film anymore because your lab stopped good dust removal and your d800 gives you what you said as "same DR as film" even though that DR is in the shadows resulting in darker looking photos.

How do you get that over exposed film look with your d800?

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Not sure what you're talking about Red. I never have my lab use digital ICE. I have recently gone back to using ichard Photo Lab in LA for my film. So problem solved. And yes, the D800 does match color film in DR...not B&W, but color, yes. So? I use film in weddings for the look.

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You wrote a few months ago that you mostly used your d800 for weddings because your photo lab's results left you with additional work yourself so you went digital to save time and that your d800 gave you "enough" exposure latitude.

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That's why I went back to Richard Photo Lab. They are one of the best in North America for wedding and lifestyle photographers.

RedFox88 said:

RedFox88 said:

Not sure what you mean by "darker photos" just because the DR is in the shadows....that comment makes no sense if one understands how to meter, expose and process.

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The extra DR of the d800 is in the shadows so you are brightening shadows which means you don't have the same result as with wide exposure latitude negative film where it provides extra range in the highlights. A fundamental difference!

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It's actually exactly the same. With film you meter for shadows. With digital, for the highlights. I've been using my D700, D800 and F5 for weddings and portraits. But the majority is on film.

In these days of lowered film processing volume, maintaining good control of chemicals is difficult, as processing is optimized when volume is maintained. Most labs running film chemicals are having difficulty obtaining enough film volume to keep control graphs consistant. My observation is based on my own labs and those of my colleagues, many of whom are now out of business.

003tvd said:

In these days of lowered film processing volume, maintaining good control of chemicals is difficult, as processing is optimized when volume is maintained. Most labs running film chemicals are having difficulty obtaining enough film volume to keep control graphs consistant. My observation is based on my own labs and those of my > colleagues, many of whom are now out of business.

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You're absolutely right.
Labs tend to not replenish the chemicals as often as they should.

003tvd said:

In these days of lowered film processing volume, maintaining good control of chemicals is difficult, as processing is optimized when volume is maintained. Most labs running film chemicals are having difficulty obtaining enough film volume to keep control graphs consistant. My observation is based on my own labs and those of my colleagues, many of whom are now out of business.

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That's very true. It's why I've opted to work with labs that cater to film photographers. I use Richard Photo Lab in LA. They do work for some of the top wedding and lifestyle photographers in North America. Their quality control is great. And they've been expanding to handle the increased volumes of photographers like myself who use film and a hybrid workflow.

There's a number of other labs you could choose, but I've standardized on the service from RPL.

Reading this entire topic thread!

Same old posters still hashing it out after all of these years!
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John Smith 2011 said:

Labs tend to not replenish the chemicals as often as they should.

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Ignorance, a totally false statement.
Here's how it works:

You put a film on say a 135-36 and the minilab senses the film and replenishes the correct amount of developer, bleach fix and stabiliser. Its all automatic, the machine won't function if you run out of chemical just beeps loudly.

For most machines the chemical comes in cartridges for so no chemical mixing either, the machine beeps, the operator opens a flap and puts a cartridge with a key way (can't put it on incorrectly) close the flap and after a few second you're ready to go.

It's an internet myth that labs measure out chemical at the end of the day and replenish, it may have been that way in the 1960's and 70's not in the modern era.

Mark Smith said:

John Smith 2011 said:

Labs tend to not replenish the chemicals as often as they should.

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Ignorance, a totally false statement.
Here's how it works:

You put a film on say a 135-36 and the minilab senses the film and replenishes the correct amount of developer, bleach fix and stabiliser. Its all automatic, the machine won't function if you run out of chemical just beeps loudly.

For most machines the chemical comes in cartridges for so no chemical mixing either, the machine beeps, the operator opens a flap and puts a cartridge with a key way (can't put it on incorrectly) close the flap and after a few second you're ready to go.

It's an internet myth that labs measure out chemical at the end of the day and > replenish, it may have been that way in the 1960's and 70's not in the modern > era.

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As usual you are unreliable and the ignorance is on you.

It's well known practice in the industry and it's called "stretching chemical replenishment"
Automatic settings can be reset and reprogrammed.
You keep spewing wrong and false information

After owning, operating, and maintaining about 15 labs over the past 30+ years, I've never contemplated nor even heard of "replenishment stretching"! I would really view that as a "false economy", as saving a few dollars at the expense of customer's work would strike me as indefensible. Hopefully that's the type of business mindset that separates the good labs (who hopefully live long and prosper) from the penny-pinchers, especially when the customer suffers. For labs to survive, I believe the mantra should always be quality images and quality service. Offering less in this economy is foolhardy. Is my naivety showing?

003tvd said:

After owning, operating, and maintaining about 15 labs over the past 30+ years, I've never contemplated nor even heard of "replenishment stretching"! I would really view that as a "false economy", as saving a few dollars at the expense of customer's work would strike me as indefensible. Hopefully that's the type of business mindset that separates the good labs (who hopefully live long and prosper) from the penny-pinchers, especially when the customer suffers. For labs to survive, I believe the mantra should always be quality images and quality service. Offering less in this > economy is foolhardy. Is my naivety showing?

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Couldn't agree with you more.

What I disagree is the notion (by M.S) that automatic settings cannot be overridden, and reset.

jack69 said:

003tvd said:

After owning, operating, and maintaining about 15 labs over the past 30+ years, I've never contemplated nor even heard of "replenishment stretching"! I would really view that as a "false economy", as saving a few dollars at the expense of customer's work would strike me as indefensible. Hopefully that's the type of business mindset that separates the good labs (who hopefully live long and prosper) from the penny-pinchers, especially when the customer suffers. For labs to survive, I believe the mantra should always be quality images and quality service. Offering less in this > economy is foolhardy. Is my naivety showing?

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Couldn't agree with you more.

What I disagree is the notion (by M.S) that automatic settings cannot be overridden, and reset.

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"inadequate chemical replenishment

To maintain consistency in photo colour processing, the rate of chemical replenishment should be dependent upon the type of film being processed. Large-scale operations that require constant chemical and sensitometric monitoring usually pick an average calibration rate in order to maintain the colour photo results within acceptable limits. The variations in chemical strength that are caused by calibration averaging and drift can lead to variations in photo colour .

For the most favorable colour quality, labs should compensate for the accumulation of contaminates and maintain the activity of the developer at a constant level. Because of monetary considerations, many labs try to stretch the life of their chemicals by not adding compensatory chemicals or by not changing the entire chemical mixture as frequently as they should ."

That is why those of us who care about our work use good quality labs. That way, chemistry issues are a non-issue. You get what you pay for!

jack69 said:

003tvd said:

After owning, operating, and maintaining about 15 labs over the past 30+ years, I've never contemplated nor even heard of "replenishment stretching"! I would really view that as a "false economy", as saving a few dollars at the expense of customer's work would strike me as indefensible. Hopefully that's the type of business mindset that separates the good labs (who hopefully live long and prosper) from the penny-pinchers, especially when the customer suffers. For labs to survive, I believe the mantra should always be quality images and quality service. Offering less in this > economy is foolhardy. Is my naivety showing?

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Couldn't agree with you more.

What I disagree is the notion (by M.S) that automatic settings cannot be overridden, and reset.

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So the Poster says he's never heard of 'replenishment stretching' something you assert as the practice of many Labs and you say you couldn't agree more?

So he says he's never experienced what you say is commonplace, and you agree with him?

The Automatic settings in the Fuji machine are written into the software that run the Frontier Lab. Overriding the setting is complex and voids your warranty is something that needs access to programming skills.

A machine like the Fuji has no way to change the rep rates(by the end user) -its a fit and forget system managed by a computer.

So yes they can be reset, by an engineer, the minilab by default is made to run in control and give high quality.

I just emailed my local lab....and they agree with everything you say. I'll stop by after my shoot and see what witty retorts Lavee comes up with to try and claim that the labs and Fuji themselves are all mistaken and that he's correct. I'll make some popcorn.

Changing replenishment rates and pump outs is not rocket surgery. All the menus are fairly accessible, whether on a Frontier printer or C-41 neg processor like an FP-362 and its variants. The usual default is set by Fuji as a starting point (usually pretty accurate) and then commonly "locked down" and password protected to keep the minimum wagers out. Technicians (Fuji's) and in-house usually have access codes to the settings. For obvious reasons, the settings shouldn't be monkeyed with unless one knows their stuff. Chemicals are a delicate balance and need frequent (usually daily) monitoring. The monitoring process usually involves processing a pre-exposed medium (film control strip, for example) and reading the finished neg strip on a densitomiter, which reads quantities of red, green & blue. It also reads the unexposed area (neg base) and areas of maximum and low density. These readings are compared to a reference strip (controlled exposure by Fuji under "perfect"conditions) and plotted on a graph to determine what amount of variance exists between "perfect" and actual output readings. If variances are present, action can be taken to bring the process back into "control". The magic is in interpreting what the graphs are telling you, and what changes may be necessary to correct the deviations. Go the wrong way, and you have a mess of lousy color, exposure, and the need to drain chemical tanks, flush them out and mix fresh, new, expensive chemistry, all without your production workflow grinding to a halt. It's a hoot.

This is why I work with high end labs. I have a color PAC prfiled based upon working with the lab to obtain the look I want. I don't need to worry about the chemistry because with good labs, it's not an issue.

It makes my life easier. Photograph the event. Send off the film. Download great scans. Done. If people want to mess around having their film done at Target or Walmart...they get what they pay for.

All labs must deal with the variables inherent in the process. It's how they handle the fluctuations that makes the difference.

--
May the light be with you
Stop global whining
Stupid should hurt

Gear: My Lab Lara, cameras, lens, tripod, monopod, cars, MH, motorcycles (yah bought another), helmet, yacht, etc. too much stuff.

Mark Smith said:

Mark Smith145430 said:

John Smith 2011 wrote:

Labs tend to not replenish the chemicals as often as they should.

Click to expand...

Ignorance, a totally false statement.
Here's how it works:

You put a film on say a 135-36 and the minilab senses the film and replenishes the correct amount of developer, bleach fix and stabiliser. Its all automatic, the machine won't function if you run out of chemical just beeps loudly.

For most machines the chemical comes in cartridges for so no chemical mixing either, the machine beeps, the operator opens a flap and puts a cartridge with a key way (can't put it on incorrectly) close the flap and after a few second you're ready to go.

It's an internet myth that labs measure out chemical at the end of the day and replenish, it may have been that way in the 1960's and 70's not in the modern era.

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Well Mark Smith . . .

You have totally missed the point here as well!

I think that what he was trying to convey is the fact that most film labs don't have enough film or paper going through them anymore to keep there chemicals fresh!

Doesn't matter if the machine replentishes for each roll of film or paper that runs through it.

If there is only 10 rolls a week of film going through a C-41 or E-6 machine and maybe only 200-300 prints running through a Fuji Frontier or other paper printer-processor, then those chemicals will go stale.

They need a much higher rate of use to keep those chemicals active!

And at those rates, it is no longer cost effective to keep those machines running.

Oh yes . . . I too have owned and operated photo labs for years (no longer, though).

In our small chain of camera stores we used to have film processing and printing at all of them, but now have the film processing and printing at only one store.

The other stores send film daily to that store for a two-day turnaround.

We do have digital printing at all of the stores, however!
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And this is why the newer "dry" process makes a lot of sense. No chemicals to maintain and monitor, & no lengthy start-up to get the temps up to operational. Start-up, shut down, one power switch. No rack washing, crossover rinsing, or circ filters to change. OTOH, the wet processor is paid off.

Mark Smith said:

jack69 said:

003tvd said:

After owning, operating, and maintaining about 15 labs over the past 30+ years, I've never contemplated nor even heard of "replenishment stretching"! I would really view that as a "false economy", as saving a few dollars at the expense of customer's work would strike me as indefensible. Hopefully that's the type of business mindset that separates the good labs (who hopefully live long and prosper) from the penny-pinchers, especially when the customer suffers. For labs to survive, I believe the mantra should always be quality images and quality service. Offering less in this > economy is foolhardy. Is my naivety showing?

Click to expand...

Couldn't agree with you more.

What I disagree is the notion (by M.S) that automatic settings cannot be overridden, and reset.

Click to expand...

So the Poster says he's never heard of 'replenishment stretching' something you assert as the practice of many Labs and you say you couldn't agree more?

So he says he's never experienced what you say is commonplace, and you agree with him?

The Automatic settings in the Fuji machine are written into the software that run the Frontier Lab. Overriding the setting is complex and voids your warranty is > something that needs access to programming skills.

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EXACTLY, any technician can perform required changes.

Mark Smith145430 said:

A machine like the Fuji has no way to change the rep rates(by the end user) -its > a fit and forget system managed by a computer.

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Is the issue who makes the changes? any technician can access the machine and make the changes .

Mark Smith145430 said:

So yes they can be reset, by an engineer, the minilab by default is made to run > in control and give high quality.

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If this is the case , what are you arguing about?