4/3 rumors... E-7 probability?

Skeeterbytes · Jul 12, 2012

Was in a similar boat (waiting, waiting, waiting for an E-30 replacement). A few things pushed me into getting the E-5: frustrating two-camera shoots with the E-30 and E-510 due to the 510's very poor dynamic range and tunnel-like viewfinder; ample evidence from E-5 owners that I wasn't getting as much out of the 150/2.0 as it's capable of delivering; and a well-timed E-5 rebate.

Like everybody and his uncle I'd like to migrate a few features and capabilities from the E-M5 to the E-5, so am still interested in a possible successor. As things stand I can't shoot sports with the E-M5 and 4/3 lenses, so advancement in either system to meet that goal is of interest.

Cheers,

Rick

Kenneth Sloan said:
Yup - that's me. I've always preferred the E-X0 to the E-X, but I think I'm giving up all hope of an E-50. When the E-7 arrives, it's a good bet that I'll be an early adopter (no point in hoping for an E-70 a year later).

My progression: E-510, E30, (E-7) (with an E-P3 and OM-D thrown in for good measure).

The E-30 was a clear winner over the E-3 (for me, when I was in the market to buy).

The E-5 simply didn't offer enough EXTRA (over the E-30) to justify the expense (it might have been enough to justify moving up from the E-3, but I didn't buy the E-3). Instead, I branched out to experiment with the E-P3, and now the OM-D. I think it's too late for an E-50 (which I would have snapped up a year ago). I doubt there will be another E-XX, and I trust that the E-7 will be a significant step up from the E-30.

Actually, my newest body is my old OM-3Ti, which I'm reviving for B&W film.

--
-Kenneth Sloan

TrapperJohn · Jul 12, 2012

ZD lens development is at a halt right now. Oly said it might be resumed later, but right now they're turning out high grade M43 lenses. Given the fact that the EM5 has been a smash hit, and is finding its way into a lot of advanced amateur and even pro camera bags as a 'small solution', my best estimate is that we probably won't see any more HG or SHG ZD lenses. They'll be too busy designing high grade M43 lenses.

We are seeing some wicked sharp primes, a sign that Oly believes M43 is more than just a P&S upgrade. Give it weathersealing, and this 45 1.8 I got has the IQ one expects of a HG ZD lens - it's pretty much a 50M without macro, but with lightning fast AF.

Since I got an EM5 back in April, I found that the battery grip does indeed make for good handling with HG ZD lenses, something the Pen was hopeless at. ZD AF has been greatly improved, especially in consistency of AF time (1-2 second) and lock rate, but still too slow for anything but static subjects.

Right now, M43 has nothing like HG ZD. If Oly resizes the ZD's for M43, they'll probably lose the telecentric design, something I feel gave the better ZD's a bit of extra sharpness and uniformity, and it's that bit of extra, that ne plus ultra, that kept me with ZD glass all this time. Using my 50-200, PL25, and 50M on the EM5, they render as sharply and as uniformly as they always did. Just gorgeous results. It's only that somewhat poky AF that holds them back.

So, what I want is an EM5 that will AF the ZD's fast. That way, I can make it small with the new primes, or add the grip and make it E620 sized for use with the telecentric HG and SHG ZD glass. And I want it working with the current ZD's, not a resized version that loses something.

Having said that, there may be an E7, but it won't be a new design, because Oly isn't going to invest the money. The E5 was just an updated E3, my bet is that an E7 will be an E5 with the EM5 sensor and maybe IBIS. It won't be able to use the 45 1.8 or 75 1.8 or the 60M with focus limit switch, or whatever they come up with next.

Rriley · Jul 12, 2012

Skeeterbytes said:
Rriley said:

Skeeterbytes said:

At least they haven't killed the line off. I know what that's like, and it's no fun.

Click to expand...

what brand was that with?

Click to expand...

Contax. I had/have C/Y, N-and G-series stuff. They came out with the N-Digital and seemed ready for the future, then poof , Kyocera pulled the plug. When Olympus was going through their recent legal and financial gyrations I was afraid it was about to happen again.

Contax well, seriously nice gear, I love their glass. Lenses seem to have risen in price over the past few years. Nice primes like 300mm 2.8 $9k, the 55/1.2 $9k, saw a hood for same $400 !, 85/1.2 Planar $5.3k, remember the 21/2.8 $3k. Even 85/1.4 that used to be $500 a few years back $1.2k.

Contax N, globally search gives a handful more than 100 lenses, much of that is adapters and stuff.

Skeeterbytes said:
(Now that I think of it, my first digicam was a Kodak. I wonder if I could get camera companies to pay me to not buy their cameras.)

theres always an upside

--
Riley

any similarity to persons living or dead is coincidental and unintended
support 1022 Sunday Scapes'

elfenone · Jul 12, 2012

+1

I can see a new growing market for a 4/3 sensored E7 the size of e30 k5 with DR to compete with the likes of K5 etc. It would most certainly be to Oly's advantage to maximise the reaction to the smaller size of m4/3. I just don't see m4/3 having quality lenses beyond 100mm The Physics comes into play,and size benefit goes out the window.

A new E7 with OMD sensor and IBIS would be a hit with Oly processing expertise and jpeg coupled to Zuiko glass. I'm sure if it uses the new IBIS it will be in a newer smaller body. As the addition of the new IBIS would require re-engineering the basic design. So why not go all in and give it their best shot. They Have established market buzz with OMD EM5. Now unvail the appropriate upgrade path to better lenses and camera.
Just saying
Cheers

Chris Mak said:
...m4/3 is on a roll, sign of the times etc..

But the whole system has its limits, one being that its tiny size is not for everyone.

Surely there's a number of people looking for a more substantial body, and I wouldn't know why Olympus couldn't with a reálly good E7 (I.Q. wise) be very competitive and attractive. Here's why:

-the benefits of the digital designed lenses for the 4/3 sensor remain; low to none-existing vignetting, best in class sharpness, SHG zooms perform equally well at all apertures and focal lengths. Very good value.

-the downsides of the 4/3 sensor size, low DR, flat tonality, limited color sensitivity, lack of natural contrast, are dissolving, certainly now that Olympus got hold of a new Sony sensor.

-Olympus' success with the OM-D gives them new credibility and a name that earns them respect. That won't exactly chase people away that might have entered through the Pen, or m4/3 family, but are looking for more substance and more growing potential in quality optics.

Olympus has with the success of the mirrorless format, so no need to try and out-compete the larger brands. They can put their own vision and wit into a new 4/3 body.

I don't see Olympus releasing another E3/E5 body with a new sensor, that would be one too many, and a bit too tasteless...

If they return to their original concept of Dslr body size, they won't chase away those who don't want a needlessly bulky camera body.

All they have to do, is take a véry good look at their E1 body again, and I'm sure they will have the imagination to come up with a body that doesn't only attract the SHG owners, but all 4/3 glass owners.

Chris

Joseph S Wisniewski · Jul 13, 2012

herebefore said:
photophile said:

If I understand correctly, instead of having a regular ´hard´mirror, the new camera uses an LC based reflection technique that splits light between an optical viewfinder and sensor ? LC response rates currently for LCDTV´s are between 5-20milliseconds while actual switching rates are in the nanosecond range. That would still make it blazingly fast between 50% translucent and 100% translucent. Real-time manual focus would be the ultimate test. Anyway, a fast-response LC-based mirror would basically do away with a real mirror, thus removing the the need to perform mirror lock-up/or live with mirror slap forever. It means no more pentaprism either - hence smaller bodies ala micro 4/3.

Click to expand...

I think the terminology is wrong...

It would switch from 50% transparent (which is translucent),

No, despite the Sony fanboy's attempts to spread that all over (and completly destroy the Wikipedia article on "translucent") what you described is "semitransparent".

herebefore said:
to 100 percent transparent.

The only problem is what happens to the light you're not letting through. There's liquid crystal techniques to absorb it, and other to scatter it (which really is translucent), but nothing to reflect it. Electrochemical approaches are dog slow. PLZTs are less than 50% transparent.

It's also a technological dead-end. You don't get the compact wides and normals you get from having a short back focus, which is basically why micro four thirds devoured four thirds.

If you want to see the future, look at patents relating to AF using the main sensor. Nikon and Fuji have old ones (both have systems in production) but Oly has some newer filings.

--
Rahon Klavanian 1912-2008.

Armenian genocide survivor, amazing cook, scrabble master, and loving grandmother. You will be missed.

Ciao! Joseph

http://www.swissarmyfork.com

Rriley · Jul 13, 2012

Joseph S Wisniewski said:
herebefore said:

photophile said:

If I understand correctly, instead of having a regular ´hard´mirror, the new camera uses an LC based reflection technique that splits light between an optical viewfinder and sensor ? LC response rates currently for LCDTV´s are between 5-20milliseconds while actual switching rates are in the nanosecond range. That would still make it blazingly fast between 50% translucent and 100% translucent. Real-time manual focus would be the ultimate test. Anyway, a fast-response LC-based mirror would basically do away with a real mirror, thus removing the the need to perform mirror lock-up/or live with mirror slap forever. It means no more pentaprism either - hence smaller bodies ala micro 4/3.

Click to expand...

I think the terminology is wrong...

It would switch from 50% transparent (which is translucent),

Click to expand...

No, despite the Sony fanboy's attempts to spread that all over (and completly destroy the Wikipedia article on "translucent") what you described is "semitransparent".

he's using terminology given to us as rumour

But there is also a second FourThirds prototype that he is testing. The name is E-P330 (again a FAKE name). It is be very similar to the current E-330. It has a similar technology to the Sony A33/55, but it does not have a translucent mirror, it has some kind of liquid chrystal mirror. The advantage is that you have no light loss when you take the real picture. The mirror can electronically change between 50% translucent and 100%. When you don’t take pictures it uses 50% of the light for the AF-system and 50% for the sensor. When you take the picture it uses the full 100% alight source. The disadvantage is that it is not as fast as the Sony technology and you do not have any AF if the mirror is at 100%. The prototype iuses the same E-620 AF-system. The viewfinder is integrated in the body and has the same specs as the VF2 for MicroFourThirds. The LCD can be tilted and it uses the same [14826]GH1[shoplink] sensor. It takes movies with 720p. You can use an external microphone .

right wrong or indifferent, we know what is meant by it

Joseph S Wisniewski said:
Joseph S Wisniewski said:

to 100 percent transparent.

Click to expand...

The only problem is what happens to the light you're not letting through. There's liquid crystal techniques to absorb it, and other to scatter it (which really is translucent), but nothing to reflect it. Electrochemical approaches are dog slow. PLZTs are less than 50% transparent.

It's also a technological dead-end. You don't get the compact wides and normals you get from having a short back focus, which is basically why micro four thirds devoured four thirds.

If you want to see the future, look at patents relating to AF using the main sensor. Nikon and Fuji have old ones (both have systems in production) but Oly has some newer filings.

http://egami.blog.so-net.ne.jp/2012-03-28

--
Riley

any similarity to persons living or dead is coincidental and unintended
support 1022 Sunday Scapes'

Keith Hatfull · Jul 13, 2012

elfenone said:
+1

I can see a new growing market for a 4/3 sensored E7 the size of e30 k5 with DR to compete with the likes of K5 etc. It would most certainly be to Oly's advantage to maximise the reaction to the smaller size of m4/3. I just don't see m4/3 having quality lenses beyond 100mm The Physics comes into play,and size benefit goes out the window.

A new E7 with OMD sensor and IBIS would be a hit with Oly processing expertise and jpeg coupled to Zuiko glass. I'm sure if it uses the new IBIS it will be in a newer smaller body. As the addition of the new IBIS would require re-engineering the basic design. So why not go all in and give it their best shot. They Have established market buzz with OMD EM5. Now unvail the appropriate upgrade path to better lenses and camera.
Just saying
Cheers

I honestly think it comes down to does Olympus WANT to continue 4/3. Because right now, with the success of the E-M5, there's never been a better time to say:

"Hey, you think the E-M5 is good, you ought to see our 4/3 bodies and lenses."

"Our zoom lenses are some of the best reviewed lenses of their type from any manufacturer, ask DPR. You should see them on our new E-X body complete with a new and improved sensor from the E-M5."

Oly, no matter the reason, has a lot of cache right now...the iron is hot, they should strike...or go ahead and give up.

--
Keith Hatfull - Woodbury, MN

vadimraskin · Jul 13, 2012

Keith Hatfull said:
I honestly think it comes down to does Olympus WANT to continue 4/3. Because right now, with the success of the E-M5, there's never been a better time to say:

"Hey, you think the E-M5 is good, you ought to see our 4/3 bodies and lenses."

"Our zoom lenses are some of the best reviewed lenses of their type from any manufacturer, ask DPR. You should see them on our new E-X body complete with a new and improved sensor from the E-M5."

Oly, no matter the reason, has a lot of cache right now...the iron is hot, they should strike...or go ahead and give up.

I doubt they do it, though. To create another midsize body for the overcrowded market that is ruled by Canon/Nikon/Sony is to willingly lose money. I don't think many "pro-sumers" will be enticed into the Olympus brand from the brands available in Costco/BJ and Wal-Mart.

I would LOVE to see an E-30 sized camera that would utilize all the benefits of E-M5 but business reality is sobering...

Skeeterbytes · Jul 13, 2012

If I'm Oly I sure wouldn't want to send the message that µ4/3 is a waypoint on a journey that inevitably leads to dslrs. I want owners and perspective owners to think of it as a destination.

Hanging around in photo forums it's sometimes hard to remember that the vast majority of camera owners don't suffer from chronic upgradeitis.

Cheers,

Rick

rovingtim · Jul 14, 2012

If they are going to release a E7 I'm surprised they aren't talking about it.

There is no need to worry about the competition because there isn't any in their DSLR market segment.

When they were a going concern (#3 camera maker in the world during the E1's reign) they did mention, hint and present mockups of all their other 'flagship' developments sometimes a year or more before release. The E3 they talked about for over two years before finally releasing it.

Art_P · Jul 14, 2012

rovingtim said:
The E3 they talked about for over two years before finally releasing it.

Wasn't there an E-2 in development that was scrapped just before going into poduction? That is the mock up they showed two years before the E-3.
--
Art P
"I am a creature of contrast,
of light and shadow.
I live where the two play together,
I thrive on the conflict"

rovingtim · Jul 14, 2012

The first replacement was going to be 8mp but Olympus found in their market research that 8mp wasn't going to cut it for a flagship at that time. So they scrapped the 8mp. Whether they scrapped the entire project is unclear. Maybe this was when they shifted from the E1 style to E3 style of body but I've not heard anything conclusive about this.

Rriley · Jul 14, 2012

rovingtim said:
If they are going to release a E7 I'm surprised they aren't talking about it.

typical
and Ogawa ?

rovingtim said:
There is no need to worry about the competition because there isn't any in their DSLR market segment.

When they were a going concern (#3 camera maker in the world during the E1's reign) they did mention, hint and present mockups of all their other 'flagship' developments sometimes a year or more before release. The E3 they talked about for over two years before finally releasing it.

--
Riley

any similarity to persons living or dead is coincidental and unintended
support 1022 Sunday Scapes'

CollBaxter · Jul 14, 2012

TrapperJohn said:
ZD lens development is at a halt right now. Oly said it might be resumed later, but right now they're turning out high grade M43 lenses. Given the fact that the EM5 has been a smash hit, and is finding its way into a lot of advanced amateur and even pro camera bags as a 'small solution', my best estimate is that we probably won't see any more HG or SHG ZD lenses. They'll be too busy designing high grade M43 lenses.

We are seeing some wicked sharp primes, a sign that Oly believes M43 is more than just a P&S upgrade. Give it weathersealing, and this 45 1.8 I got has the IQ one expects of a HG ZD lens - it's pretty much a 50M without macro, but with lightning fast AF.

Since I got an EM5 back in April, I found that the battery grip does indeed make for good handling with HG ZD lenses, something the Pen was hopeless at. ZD AF has been greatly improved, especially in consistency of AF time (1-2 second) and lock rate, but still too slow for anything but static subjects.

Right now, M43 has nothing like HG ZD. If Oly resizes the ZD's for M43, they'll probably lose the telecentric design, something I feel gave the better ZD's a bit of extra sharpness and uniformity, and it's that bit of extra, that ne plus ultra, that kept me with ZD glass all this time. Using my 50-200, PL25, and 50M on the EM5, they render as sharply and as uniformly as they always did. Just gorgeous results. It's only that somewhat poky AF that holds them back.

So, what I want is an EM5 that will AF the ZD's fast. That way, I can make it small with the new primes, or add the grip and make it E620 sized for use with the telecentric HG and SHG ZD glass. And I want it working with the current ZD's, not a resized version that loses something.

Having said that, there may be an E7, but it won't be a new design, because Oly isn't going to invest the money. The E5 was just an updated E3, my bet is that an E7 will be an E5 with the EM5 sensor and maybe IBIS. It won't be able to use the 45 1.8 or 75 1.8 or the 60M with focus limit switch, or whatever they come up with next.

Agreed in principle but if we get the E-7 with new sensor and IBIS and can hang HG and SHG glasss on it would we want the short expensive primes. ?

The E-5 IBIS is no slouch as it is Probably comparable it E-M5 , except video . You can not compare the E-5/30 IBIS to a E-620 / 520. I Have all of those and I get 2 or more stops on the E-620 and about 1 to 1.5 on the E-520. The Pens have the same basic sayatem as the E-620.

--
Collin

(Aficionado Olympus DSLR )

http://collinbaxter.zenfolio.com/
http://www.pbase.com/collinbaxter

Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away. (George Carlin)

New Seventh Wonder of the World.

CollBaxter · Jul 14, 2012

Tim they would have gone bust with the E-1 and E-300 ( Ghetto Cam). It was the E-500 and later E-510 that put them in that position.

I think the people who said they will buy a E-7 on this post is more than the first few weeks of E-1 sales.

--
Collin

(Aficionado Olympus DSLR )

http://collinbaxter.zenfolio.com/
http://www.pbase.com/collinbaxter

Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away. (George Carlin)

New Seventh Wonder of the World.

Joseph S Wisniewski · Jul 14, 2012

rovingtim said:
If they are going to release a E7 I'm surprised they aren't talking about it.

There is no need to worry about the competition because there isn't any in their DSLR market segment.

Oly themselves thinks there is. Remember that really horrid, contrived Oly presentation to their dealers about how the E3 creamed the Nikon D200?

Have you handled a Pentax system? Weather resistant cameras and lenses, and some truly spectacular "poor man's Leica" primes. They have a great zoom range, including things like the 50-150mm f2.8 that's pretty much equivalent to the Oly 35-100 f2.0, but weighs and costs half as much.

rovingtim said:
When they were a going concern (#3 camera maker in the world during the E1's reign)

There's a big difference from being number 3 because some giants like Sony and Panasonic as "sleeping" and being number 3 in the face of aggressive competition.

rovingtim said:
they did mention, hint and present mockups of all their other 'flagship' developments sometimes a year or more before release. The E3 they talked about for over two years before finally releasing it.

That has noting to do with being a "going concern" and everything with trying to build some mind share. I'm sure, if there was actually an E-7 in the pipeline, Oly would be talking it up a year or two in advance, just like E-1, E-3, and E-5. I doubt they're afraid of the "Osborn effect" gutting their current 3 cameras a month E-5 sales.

--
Rahon Klavanian 1912-2008.

Armenian genocide survivor, amazing cook, scrabble master, and loving grandmother. You will be missed.

Ciao! Joseph

http://www.swissarmyfork.com

Joseph S Wisniewski · Jul 14, 2012

Rriley said:
Joseph S Wisniewski said:

herebefore said:

photophile said:

If I understand correctly, instead of having a regular ´hard´mirror, the new camera uses an LC based reflection technique that splits light between an optical viewfinder and sensor ? LC response rates currently for LCDTV´s are between 5-20milliseconds while actual switching rates are in the nanosecond range. That would still make it blazingly fast between 50% translucent and 100% translucent.

Click to expand...

It would switch from 50% transparent (which is translucent),

Click to expand...

No, despite the Sony fanboy's attempts to spread that all over (and completly destroy the Wikipedia article on "translucent") what you described is "semitransparent".

Click to expand...

he's using terminology given to us as rumour

True.

Rriley said:
But there is also a second FourThirds prototype that he is testing. The name is E-P330 (again a FAKE name). It is be very similar to the current E-330. It has a similar technology to the Sony A33/55, but it does not have a translucent mirror, it has some kind of liquid chrystal mirror. The advantage is that you have no light loss when you take the real picture. The mirror can electronically change between 50% translucent and 100%. When you don’t take pictures it uses 50% of the light for the AF-system and 50% for the sensor. When you take the picture it uses the full 100% alight source. The disadvantage is that it is not as fast as the Sony technology and you do not have any AF if the mirror is at 100%. The prototype iuses the same E-620 AF-system. The viewfinder is integrated in the body and has the same specs as the VF2 for MicroFourThirds. The LCD can be tilted and it uses the same [14826]GH1[shoplink] sensor. It takes movies with 720p. You can use an external microphone .

right wrong or indifferent, we know what is meant by it

Yes, but it's difficult to talk about what LCDs can do, and still retain that terminology. They can be translucent (in the "everybody but Sony" sense). They cannot form "semi-transparent" mirrors. A hard concept to get across without redacting the Sony inanity.

Rriley said:
Rriley said:

Rriley said:

to 100 percent transparent.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Rriley said:
Rriley said:

It's also a technological dead-end. You don't get the compact wides and normals you get from having a short back focus, which is basically why micro four thirds devoured four thirds.

If you want to see the future, look at patents relating to AF using the main sensor. Nikon and Fuji have old ones (both have systems in production) but Oly has some newer filings.

Click to expand...

http://egami.blog.so-net.ne.jp/2012-03-28

Thanks. That's definitely one of them.

--
Rahon Klavanian 1912-2008.

Armenian genocide survivor, amazing cook, scrabble master, and loving grandmother. You will be missed.

Ciao! Joseph

http://www.swissarmyfork.com

Doctor Lecter · Jul 14, 2012

When I tried to look for that lens online, all I found was a SIGMA for Pentax lens, and it's not a fixed f2.8... that's a whole lot different than the 35-100mm.
--
Dr. Lecter

MatijaK · Jul 15, 2012

Doctor Lecter said:
When I tried to look for that lens online, all I found was a SIGMA for Pentax lens, and it's not a fixed f2.8... that's a whole lot different than the 35-100mm.

There's a Pentax 50-135, and that one is rather horrible until f/5.6.

Rriley · Jul 15, 2012

Joseph S Wisniewski said:
rovingtim said:

If they are going to release a E7 I'm surprised they aren't talking about it.

There is no need to worry about the competition because there isn't any in their DSLR market segment.

Click to expand...

Oly themselves thinks there is. Remember that really horrid, contrived Oly presentation to their dealers about how the E3 creamed the Nikon D200?

Have you handled a Pentax system? Weather resistant cameras and lenses, and some truly spectacular "poor man's Leica" primes. They have a great zoom range, including things like the 50-150mm f2.8 that's pretty much equivalent to the Oly 35-100 f2.0, but weighs and costs half as much.

you held back calling their zooms poor mans Leicas when actually, their zooms pretty much suck, and they dont make a 50-150mm f2.8 anyway
hows that for equivalent?

Joseph S Wisniewski said:
Joseph S Wisniewski said:

When they were a going concern (#3 camera maker in the world during the E1's reign)

Click to expand...

There's a big difference from being number 3 because some giants like Sony and Panasonic as "sleeping" and being number 3 in the face of aggressive competition.

yep, say hows the 'poor mans leica' going in that...

Joseph S Wisniewski said:
Joseph S Wisniewski said:

they did mention, hint and present mockups of all their other 'flagship' developments sometimes a year or more before release. The E3 they talked about for over two years before finally releasing it.

Click to expand...

That has noting to do with being a "going concern" and everything with trying to build some mind share. I'm sure, if there was actually an E-7 in the pipeline, Oly would be talking it up a year

which they did

Joseph S Wisniewski said:
or two in advance, just like E-1, E-3, and E-5. I doubt they're afraid of the "Osborn effect" gutting their current 3 cameras a month E-5 sales.

doubtlessly sell more than pentax 50-150/2.8 zooms, but lets see how it pans out before we all feel the need to drop our pants

--
Riley

any similarity to persons living or dead is coincidental and unintended
support 1022 Sunday Scapes'

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