Framing floats down when taking hands off camera/tripod

sherman_levine said:

True - The OP has a problem which causes the image to drift > 1/2 of the picture height. It's probably caused by a problem in the ballhead.

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An important update on this. I did discover a good part of the problem, initially, was related to me not having the ball head screwed on tightly enough. My intereactions with the two more experienced photographers resolved that.

However, there is still some drift. At this point I do not think that the ball head is defective but I am wondering why this type of head is recommended for wildlife which inherently involves long zooms to keep the subject from moving away from you.

It seems, at this point that I need to learn to compensate for the drift. That is not something I expected when investing this amount of money, however.

Let's not hijack the OP's thread. Which is about a problem with his support system.

Please debate whether ALL photography can be done without tripods in another thread.

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ted
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Why not try it handheld?

Costs nothing, may work worth a try, lots of folks do it.

Just wondering.

-Erik
--
DP Review Supporter.



'He who hesitates is not only lost - he's miles from the next Exit.'
http://www.flickr.com/ohlsonmh/ [email protected]

Florida Nature Photographer said:

Erik Ohlson said:

I recall posting the first reply to the OP, and suggesting that the camera be placed on a solid surface to check whether the image still drifts - Voilá! - we now know whether the problem is camera-related or not!

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I think I might have misunderstood your suggestion. You may have meant to take the camera off the tripod and set just the camera on the solid surface. This concern was alleviated at the camera shop however when the woman watched from the side as I attempted to frame my subject. She saw the camera move down slightly. Therefore it was not related to the camera itself.

Don't give up on fixing this problem. The Gitzo-RRS pairing should have ZERO shrift with your light weight gear.

Various folks have debated 1-series vs 2-series Gitzo for our MFT gear but not for shift. The debate is about wind and other vibrations. (btw- misuse of IS doesn't cause drift. It causes what looks like bad focus or vibration)

The BH-30 is more that enough to support MFT.

again call RRS and ask them for help. They are the experts and sell both their own legs as well as Gitzo.

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ted
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Because the OP has seen that the problem is not with the camera. Something in the support system is letting the camera to drop down.

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ted
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Pelagic said:

Don't give up on fixing this problem. The Gitzo-RRS pairing should have ZERO shrift with your light weight gear.

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...

Pelagic said:

The BH-30 is more that enough to support MFT.

again call RRS and ask them for help. They are the experts and sell both their own legs as well as Gitzo.

Click to expand...

Please see below my correspondence with RRS verbatim expect for substituting my forum name for my real name. It's probably best for you to start at the bottom (beginning) of the email chain.

The message was too long so the remainder of the exchange will be in the next message.

From: Jim Weise [ [email protected]]
Sent: Friday, July 06, 2012 12:48 PM
To: Florida Nature Photographer
Subject: RE: Problem with BH-30 LR

Greetings Florida Nature Photographer,

Although every ballhead out there, including ours, will have some “settle” upon locking, that should be minor at most. If you’re experiencing significant “float” or creep after locking the ballhead, it is likely either due to a combination of many factors (i.e. a certain amount of flex in the tripod/camera and the joints between all the pieces), or a mechanical issue with one or more parts. Using longer focal lengths will magnify any of these issues, making composition more challenging.

Our ballheads are designed to have that “settle” motion minimized – in comparison to ballheads of similar sizes there is usually far less motion during lockup. The motion would always be vertical in our ballheads, never horizontal, and should be predictable enough to compensate for when using long lenses. Again, this would not occur after locking the ballhead, but during the transition from unlocked to locked. If the settling comes after locking the ballhead, this points to flex either in the camera/lens assembly, the tripod, or one of the joints between two pieces, such as the ballhead to the tripod or the camera to the plate.

A 0 Series tripod raises concerns in terms of stiffness – having used a tripod like that Gitzo before I can say that it is quite easy to cause flex in the legs while composing using a ballhead. Upon releasing the camera, such tension would be relieved and the legs would “spring” back to their normal shape/position. The same phenomenon is usually present in camera bodies (to a lesser extent), especially those without rigid metal frames or with weak tripod socket assemblies. If you are holding the camera in tension against the plate or ballhead as you move it, that would also spring back upon releasing. This can be avoided by using a lighter touch on the camera grip, and by not holding the lens as a means of moving the camera.

If the issue seems like it’s coming from the BH-30 LR, we can certainly take a look and diagnose/repair any issues it might have. Most of the time, however, the phenomenon you’ve described is due to an issue elsewhere in the tripod system.

Please let me know if you have further questions.

Jim

From: Florida Nature Photographer
Sent: Friday, July 06, 2012 8:27 AM
To: Info
Subject: Problem with BH-30 LR

BH-30 LR: Compact ballhead with LR

I zoom out to a subject and frame it. Then I tighten the knob to lock the ball head. Then I let go of the camera. The camera always floats down and changes the framing of my shot.

I thought that this was a problem with me being inexperienced with using tripods. However, I just had the opportunity to have a much more experienced photographer try my equipment and she told me that it is too sensitive and that it shouldn’t be so hard to frame my subject.

My tripod is the Gitzo GT0541
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001F0RNYA/ref=oh_details_o06_s00_i00

Is this an indication of a defective ball head or am I doing something wrong or is this the way this ball head works?

If this problem cannot be resolved I want to return the ball head.

Florida Nature Photographer

This is the rest of my email exchange with RRS

From: Jim Weise [ [email protected]]
Sent: Monday, July 09, 2012 2:04 PM
To: Florida Nature Photographer
Subject: RE: Problem with BH-30 LR

Florida Nature Photographer,

A lighter camera would most likely not behave any different in that regard compared to a heavy one, at least not with a ballhead operating normally. By partially tightening the ballhead as you described, you are essentially “pre-locking” the ballhead and therefore pre-settling the mechanism into position – this will not cause wear issues but as you have pointed out will severely limit the utility of the ballhead.

I’m not sure how you would pair a lens collar with your camera, or how it would improve the handling on the ballhead. Again, in our experience the weight of the gear does not really affect this phenomenon, although better weight distribution might.

If you need a plate to fit that lens collar, it looks like B82 might be a good fit: http://reallyrightstuff.com/ProductDesc.aspx?code=B82&type=0&eq=B82-003&desc=B82%3a-For-Canon-EF-70-200mm%2ff4L&key=ait

Jim

From: Florida Nature Photographer
Sent: Monday, July 09, 2012 5:56 AM
To: Jim Weise
Subject: RE: Problem with BH-30 LR

Jim

Thanks for your informed response.

I spent considerable time on the problem this past weekend. I discovered that the problem is worse if I point the camera down at a subject rather than straight ahead or up. This leads my uniformed mind to believe that it relates to the weight of the camera. I find this puzzling since my camera is only 1.1 lbs.

Panasonic DMC-FZ150K 12.1 MP Digital Camera with CMOS Sensor and 24x Optical Zoom (Black)
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005HQ50SO/ref=oh_details_o05_s00_i00

I found that the problem was easier to mitigate if I tightened the ball head just enough that it would stay in place but not so much that it can’t be moved. However, this work around did make minute adjustments more difficult. I also have a concern that this may hasten wear on the ball head?

I got together with a photographer experienced with the use of tripods, that I met through a forum, and he also experienced the problem with my equipment. He has the same camera as I do and we found that the problem was helped by the use of his lens collar.
72mm Camera/Lens Tripod Mount Ring/Micro Lens Collar F Canon EF100mm/F2.8 USM

http://www.ebay.com/itm/370616753503?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649#ht_3904wt_1163

This again seems to indicate that the issue is the weight of my rather light camera.

Any additional help you could provide given this new information would be appreciated. Also, do you have any recommendations regarding a camera plate that would be a good match with the lens collar, the BH-30 LR, and my camera?

Florida Nature Photographer

Ok, it's pretty well established that the tripod is the problem.

It should be replaced or eliminated as soon as possible - why stress over it? There are plenty of good tripods out there, no need to worry about a dud.

But; a question: Just what are you trying to accomplish?

I gather from your "Avatar" that you want to take nature shots and I seem to recall that you once mentioned just getting into the field. If I'm wrong, sorry, and apologies.

Assuming the above, have you seen some of the 'Birds In Flight" (BIF) shots on this forum?

Probably the best way to use an FZ150 for nature is to get a Red Dot Sight (use "search")for about 10 bucks at Walmart, and shoot in high-speed burst mode.

Check this thread, and the Blog attached to it:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1033&thread=42000509

Quoting from that blog (since I don't have a 150 so I want the info to be accurate)

Florida Nature Photographer said:

"The pictures were shot with my Panasonic DMC-FZ150. One of the features that I used was the burst mode. The FZ150 can shoot about 12 shots a second at the highest quality JPEG setting. I chose the 5.5 frames per second, which also gives full follow-focus capability."

Click to expand...

BTW, Tony is a VERY experienced photographer and photographic writer/columnist.

It would seem to me that you have a camera that doesn't require a tripod except for some really specialized stuff like making smooth pictures of moving water. Most nature shooting requires quick acquisition of the target and a lot of shots to get the right positioning &tc. - things that a tripod doesn't help with, just hinders.

Quite probably I'm making wrong assumptions, here, but if you say what it is you are actually trying to accomplish, you will find a LOT of good advice on this forum.

-Erik
--
DP Review Supporter.



'He who hesitates is not only lost - he's miles from the next Exit.'
http://www.flickr.com/ohlsonmh/ [email protected]

I've never spoken with Jim at RRS and I always call instead of using email. = Easier to explain the details. Carla is the person I talk to about plates and ballheads.

But that exchange didn't help at all. I'd reduce it to: test each link in the chain, come back to us if you isolate to the BH-30. BTW - when he says a little settling he means just a few thousands. A few thousands means something different to SWA or supertele.

If he is saying that the 0-series seems light, then put the tripod up on a solid table and don't extend the legs or center column. Try that and see if their is any movement between the top of the legs and the camera body. That isolates to the plate, clamp and ballhead.

I've lost track. What plate and clamp are you using between the legs and ballhead?

Here's the way many of us test support systems. Tape a laser pointer to your lens/body and point it at some target. See if/how it moves before, during and after you compose. Then watch if it bounces or vibrates during shutter release. This test method removes most discussion of what gear is OK. It's either still, during exposure or not. If not something can be seen in the final image. It's then up to each of us to decide "Is it good enough?"

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ted
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Erik,

You seem to be having trouble understanding the OP. He is interested in solving his problem, as he sees it. You seen to have "No one needs a tripod religion" and want him to stop using a tripod.

Can you take this discussion to another thread? Try to address his problem.

This is a YMMV activity. Not everyone shoots the same way or needs to.

--
ted
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Pelagic said:

Erik,

You seem to be having trouble understanding the OP. He is interested in solving his problem, as he sees it. You seen to have "No one needs a tripod religion" and want him to stop using a tripod.

Can you take this discussion to another thread? Try to address his problem.

This is a YMMV activity. Not everyone shoots the same way or needs to.

--
ted

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Sorry it looks that way to you, Ted, but go back to the very first line in this thread:

Pelagic said:

Pelagic said:

"I'm new to all this so I'm hoping I'm doing something wrong."

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I honestly don't give a rip if the OP stabilizes his images with a tripod or a sherman tank, but I have to wonder if the OP has considered what purpose the tripod is going to serve, being "new to all this".

Assuming it's "Massive Stability" the solution has been clear all along:

"Take the tripod back where you got it and get a decent one, or do without."

I've had similar problems with 4x5 view cameras - but....an FZ150??

I'm really sorry it bothers you, Ted, if I try to help - I can't help wondering if the OP has just got hung up on the tripod problem to the exclusion of the real problem of getting photographs, if the OP wants me to stop, he is welcome to say so, it's not your lookout anymore than my personal attitude toward tripods is, your lookout.

Have a really nice day & all, I don't intend to quarrel with you about this, so I won't be replying to you on this subject.

-Erik

--
DP Review Supporter.



'He who hesitates is not only lost - he's miles from the next Exit.'
http://www.flickr.com/ohlsonmh/ [email protected]

The spec of your tripod/balhead should be good for a pro dSLR. Kit at 1/3rd of the cost would be more than adequate for the FZ150. No way should it be sinking. But then you already know this. If the option is open to return the head and tripod for a refund I'd do that immediately.

I have lower spec kit but still plenty good for a heavy dSLR. Logically, your issue is faulty hardware or operator error. Having upgraded to a good quality ball head, I was somewhat disappointed that handling wise it was poor compared to a more tradional video-type head. Sometimes, when holding the camera to lock the head, pressure on the tripod gives an elevated view. When letting go of the camera the tripd sags. I never had that problem with a video head. However, the sag/flex is not a gradual sagging. If your head is doing that then it is not locking - I'd get a friend/colleague to have a try - you may be missing something simple. Or, if you bought the head from a retail shop, take it in and get them to demonstrate.

Good Luck
Stuart

Erik Ohlson said:

I'm really sorry it bothers you, Ted, if I try to help - I can't help wondering if the OP has just got hung up on the tripod problem to the exclusion of the real problem of getting photographs, if the OP wants me to stop, he is welcome to say so, it's not your lookout anymore than my personal attitude toward tripods is, your lookout.

Have a really nice day & all, I don't intend to quarrel with you about this, so I won't be replying to you on this subject.

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Erik,

Thanx for your gentlemanly way of saying we read the OPs first posting differently. I was headed for the simple problem he described and you saw that he may be headed in a wrong direction for a beginner. So I took you up wrong and I'm sorry to have caused agrit.

I totally agree with the notion that we often try solve the wrong problems.

Maybe he'll come back and question/express his need for a tripod.

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ted
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A lot to digest. I appreciate the attempts to help.

I do most of my photography while hiking or riding my bicycle. I mostly do nature, wildlife, landscape photography. I like to document my travels photographically.

My reason for spending $529 on the Gitzo tripod was that I want lightweight and quick/easy to set up when I see the need it. The $70 tripod I had let me down on several occasions on my recent trip to Central California. This caused me to research. That research told me not to skimp on a tripod so I didn't.

I appreciate all your input and need to make this decision fairly quickly before my return option expires.

A tripod is worthless to me if it is such a distraction from my hiking/biking experience that I decide to leave it in the car.

All my research points to tripods being a significant asset in good photography. I did not spend this amount of money without due consideration. If I am off base now is the time for me to learn this.

When I zoom in - at 600mm the camera only needs to move a very small amount for the movement to be greatly magnified by the zoom. The issue is most likely flex in the tripod legs if a full height. Is the effect eliminated of reduced when the bottom (thinnest) section of the legs are not extended?

On class of tripod needed for the FZ150 - I'd expect something like this to be plenty good enough - http://www.amazon.co.uk/Manfrotto-MKC3-H01-Compact-Photo-movie-Kit/dp/B0049SVTXG/ref=pd_sim_sbs_ce_5 Note the head, which may better suit your needs and be easier to set/adjust.

Stuart

O.K. a couple of important updates on my problem.

Pelagic said:

I've never spoken with Jim at RRS and I always call instead of using email. = Easier to explain the details. Carla is the person I talk to about plates and ballheads.

Click to expand...

I called and asked for Carla but she was not available and I ended up speaking with Brady.

While talking to him I noticed something that I think is significant but did not help him help me.

As you suggested, I compacted the legs on my tripod all the way to their smallest position and set it on my kitchen counter top pointing out the window. Then I performed my tests.

1) Set up subject framing with lens at full 600mm zoom
2) Tighten knob and see it go down a little as I do
3) Take hands off camera and watch it go down a bit more

4) Put hands back on camera and discover that I can move it back up to the original position and beyond without lifting the tripod or loosening the ball head.

This makes me think that if there were some technique I would use that would allow the camera to be at its bottom position I would be able to set it at the framing I want and it would stay there but I haven't been able to figure your out how to do it. Any thoughts on that?

The result of the call is that they are going to send me a new ball head and I'm going to ship this one back. However, if the problem is with me I want to resolve that. I'm not convinced that the one I have is defective. If it isn't I will have the same problem with the new one.

Pelagic said:

I've lost track. What plate and clamp are you using between the legs and ballhead?

Click to expand...

This is my tripod:
Gitzo GT0541
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001F0RNYA/ref=oh_details_o06_s00_i00
This is my ballhead:
Really Right Stuff BH-30 LR
http://reallyrightstuff.com/...H-30-LR%3a-Compact-ballhead-with-LR&key=it
This is my camera plate:
Wimberly P-5
http://www.tripodhead.com/products/camera-body-main.cfm

Pelagic said:

Here's the way many of us test support systems. Tape a laser pointer to your lens/body and point it at some target.

Click to expand...

Is there one you recomend? Is this what you are talking about?

http://www.amazon.com/Powerful-Laser-Pointer-Beam-Light/dp/B0030CTS0I/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1342215232&sr=8-2&keywords=laser+pointer

I really appreciate your help with this.

With the legs shortened you have removed them from the equation. The only things left are the legs to head and head to clamp connections. Plus, of course, the head itself.

Yes, that's the type of cheap laser. I was hoping that you might do some teaching and have one already.

I do see another questionable issue. Maybe you are getting movement between the plate and clamp. I seem to remember something about different quick release clamps not liking another companies plates. If they haven't shipped the new head, have them ship a screw clamp. Also have someone carefully watch the movement as you remove your hands from the camera.

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ted
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More thoughts:

Reread your observations. Seemingly you could have two different movements. 1) while releasing from tightening the ball
2) releasing the camera.

For the second, try this.

• tighten the ball
• wiggle the camera while looking at the clamp to plate and camera to plate connections.

You might have a small plate size miss match or the bottom of the tripod thread might not be flush with the bottom of the camera. (not that uncommon)

You could remove the ballhead from the tripod and try to flex the head to camera connections. Also look at how you tightened the head to the tripod.

The leg to head, head to clamp and clamp to camera joints should have zero movement at any pressure you can apply. They shouldn't twist or move in any direction.

As far as technique: how loose is the ballhead while you adjust your framing? If you are too tight, you will get some rebound movement as you fully tighten and relase your firm grip. There is a small skill involved. When I moved from Nikon to mft I kept my BH-40 head because the ball pretension feature removes this bit of skill from the equation. = for each camera/lens combination you test and remember the pretension number.

Sometimes, if you haven't used the head for a while it will be a touch "not smoothness". Add a warm-up movement to your prep for use technique. I don't shoot from tripod every week so do a I twist the ball around exercise while assembling what I take out with me.

--
ted
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Pelagic said:

I do see another questionable issue. Maybe you are getting movement between the plate and clamp. I seem to remember something about different quick release clamps not liking another companies plates. If they haven't shipped the new head, have them ship a screw clamp.

Click to expand...

RRS did not have a camera plate that is made for my camera. When I called them they recommended a couple. The one I bought is one of those.

Pelagic said:

Also have someone carefully watch the movement as you remove your hands from the camera.

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When I was at the camera shop the woman was watching me and she had me hold onto the ballhead itself and not touch the camera. That of course makes it pretty difficult to use the zoom. I do have a remote shutter release.