Horses for courses - a real world comparison

Horses for courses

Before I leave an unwanted impression a disclaimer in advance - I don't want to proof that Nikon, Canon or Sony or any other brand is better - I am completely brand agnostic but I love photographing and the good feeling when the pictures are just the way as I intended them to be.

Some four months ago the D800E shocked me because that is the camera I wanted to see from Canon - I own Canon lenses and I love them (I'd love good Nikon & Sony lenses too if I had them).

So the question was would it be clever to invest in Nikon gear parallel to my existing Canon gear simply to get the gorgeous camera with no AA filter built in - a concept I really appreciate.

Last weekend i was at an event together with a friend that bought the D800E and the 70-200 f/2.8 II from Nikon. I invested in the meantime in a 300 f/2.8 II with is roughly the price of the D800E plus the 70-200 f/2.8 VR II - so same money out of the pocket.

It was a very interesting event andd we enjoyed ourself and took thousands of images - fortunately similar ones - so now I can compare them 1:1 in the same shooting condition. I know that the ISO settings are different and that the picture is not the same but it illustrates how much influence the right horse for the course has.

this is an image taken some 50 m away from the central stage with both cameras

70-200 f/2.8 VR II plus 2x on the D800E vs my 5D II plus the 300 f/2.8 L IS USM II plus 2x extender III

both at 100 % shot from monopod on a shaky wooden ground:



I think this is a really good example that you have to look at the whole tool chain instead of a single item - I have dozens of these pairs of images but I levee it at this stage. For me a clear sign that investing i the appropriate lens is the better way to invest for most upgrade situations. btw - the AF of the 5D II worked splendidly though out the whole event and I had maybe 100 to 200 miss focussed shots out of some 5500 in three days - the AF system is no selection criteria though and I am a big fan of the old saying that the proof is in the pudding

I hope you enjoy the nice 1:1 comparison even though there are many things that could be made better with the D800E. It is all about the right gear tool chain for the purpose and the right settings of the gear.

I am very happy with the 300 f/2.8 plus the 2x Extender - especially for these kind of events

--

isn’t it funny, a ship that leaks from the top

ISO 9000 definition of quality: 'Degree to which a set of inherent characteristic fulfills requirements'
I am the classic “Windows by Day, Mac by Night user'

“The horizon of many people is a circle with zero radius which they call their point of view.” Albert Einstein

Not saying one camera is better than the other and I'd always opt for better glass like the 300 2.8 verus a new body....BUT....How can you conclude anything from very different exposures (and bad exposures at at that) and focal lengths?? Also, I don't know what's up with the D800E photo, but that is not representative of what it can deliver - looks like motion blur and heavy NR??

Here is what a better representation of what the D800E can deliver handheld SOOC (so it could be better):

Full Frame:



100% crop:



Full Frame:



100% Crop:



Full Frame:



100% Crops:

Not worth considering.
Malcolm

have to agree here, lots of different variables here :

1 - you have a fantastic lens : 300 2.8, which is much sharper than a 70-200 2.8 Nikon counterpart, even if your has also a 2x converter on

2 - you shot at iso 160 and your friend at iso 800

3 - your friend had a FL of 400mm and you 600mm ; however, both images here appear at the same magnification, which sounds that the Nikon shoot is a bit enlarged to be comparable to Canons 200mm extra focal lenght, loosing quality.

D800E is a great camera. Just not in the hands of your friend - he had wrong ISO, camera shake, the lot.

Tell him to get a few photography classes off you you do your equipment justice !

ps : before anyone start calling me Canon fanboy, I'm actually a Nikon user ( not for long though )

joger said:

...
but it illustrates how much influence the right horse for the course has
.....

It is all about the right gear tool chain for the purpose and the right settings of the gear.
...

Click to expand...

The only "right horse for the course" i see is that you seem more right for this course than your friend regardless of equipment, and with the kind of tools both of you had im inclined to agree with you on the " right settings of the gear"

Thats definetely not indicative for D800e - apart from the fact that it almost seems like its behind a heavy NRed jet blast or smthin!

Especially the way you have them cropped.

LOL! More silliness from the forum 5D2 tragic!

Good luck D800 shooters - your about to be shown that your chosen camera is no better than a 5D2 (apart from all the areas where it is better - they wont matter and will be judged as unimportant features that no-one really needs)

Proenca said:

both images here appear at the same magnification, which sounds that the Nikon shoot is a bit enlarged to be comparable to Canons 200mm extra focal lenght, loosing quality.

D800E is a great camera. Just not in the hands of your friend - he had wrong ISO, camera shake, the lot.

Click to expand...

it is 1/4000th of a second - how can you have camera shake?

Additionally the D800E has more pixels - some 25 % more linear resolution that compensates for the shorter focal length - that is one of the key aspects I am referring to. You are looking at 100 % crops (for those that are not familiar with LightRoom)

No doubt - the D800E is a very fine camera - BUT the 300 f/2.8 with the 2x plays in another league no matter how good the camera is - that is my point - before investing in cameras go for lenses - if you are a Canon guy! I am really envious on the D800E though ;-)

For the same money i could have gotten a D800E plus the 70 - 200 or my 300 f/2.8

I guess in some situations the 300 pays off more - that's all I wanted to bring to the discussion - a bit aside from the normal which camera is better discussion - you have to look at the total toll chain.

Under perfect conditions in the laboratory every gear can be good. In real world conditions it is a matter of many influences.

--

isn’t it funny, a ship that leaks from the top

ISO 9000 definition of quality: 'Degree to which a set of inherent characteristic fulfills requirements'
I am the classic “Windows by Day, Mac by Night user'

“The horizon of many people is a circle with zero radius which they call their point of view.” Albert Einstein

jjnik said:

Not saying one camera is better than the other and I'd always opt for better glass like the 300 2.8 verus a new body....BUT....How can you conclude anything from very different exposures (and bad exposures at at that) and focal lengths?? Also, I don't know what's up with the D800E photo, but that is not representative of what it can deliver - looks like motion blur and heavy NR??

Here is what a better representation of what the D800E can deliver handheld SOOC (so it could be better):

Click to expand...

do you happen to have night shots at a concert or event with 70-200 VR II plus 2x handheld or monopod at ISO 800 to 3200 ??

--

isn’t it funny, a ship that leaks from the top

ISO 9000 definition of quality: 'Degree to which a set of inherent characteristic fulfills requirements'
I am the classic “Windows by Day, Mac by Night user'

“The horizon of many people is a circle with zero radius which they call their point of view.” Albert Einstein

Even if I could efford it, I would never want to lug around a monstrous lens such as the canon 300 mm F2.8 II in public

joger said:

joger said:

do you happen to have night shots at a concert or event with 70-200 VR II plus 2x handheld or monopod at ISO 800 to 3200 ??

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

No - but here's a handheld night shot with the 24-70 bare @ f2.8, ISO 6400, fwiw:

This is a very interesting comparison. It's made more interesting by your friend's odd decision to go for a high shutter speed, which shows the D800 is not that great at higher sensitivities (at 100% anyway). Seems the Canon controlled the highlights better too but that could be a lighting issue.

You're dead right - a better lens is so much more important than having a sensor with more pixels. It's possible that the comparison would have favoured the Nikon if you'd been closer, with no teleconverters, and both cameras shot at base sensitivity but that's too idealistic in a situation like this.

Thanks for posting.
--
Don.

A Land Rover, a camera ... I'm happy!

joger said:

it is 1/4000th of a second - how can you have camera shake?

Click to expand...

1/4000s is not an absolute guarantee against camera shake, especially not at 400mm, but most images should be ok. Also, IR/VR can cause strange effects.

Biggest explanations are the ISO 160/800 difference, and comparing a prime to a tele zoom used at it's worst position: Longest focal length and full aperture. The prime is much better in this case - and it should be, what it looses in flexibility it gains in image quality. The comparison would be fair if between two 300mm f/2.8 teles (or zooms), and identical ISO - Horses for courses.
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• Jan

No text

You have posted some pretty odd comparisons before, but this one takes the cake.

I am slow to notice patterns, but I think I see now the joger template:

1. Pro forma statement of neutrality (only valid for one paragraph)
2. Insert apples to oranges comparison, where hapless D800 will lose again to 5D-II/III.
3. Make as many variables as humanly possible different.
4. Draw sweeping conclusion to justify purchase/lack of purchase.
5. Debate and never, never change your mind.
6. Repeat.

While a lot of your points are totally valid and obvious - right tool for the job, total image chain, lenses are just as important as cameras etc, the sheer volume of self-justification posts makes me think you just can't get over the D800. If you were truly happy with every link in your chain you would not be posting these.

You have a great camera and some amazing glass. Just enjoy it.
--


Things I have clicked with: Agfa 110, Minolta X-300, X700, Nikon F3, F4, Hassleblad 500C/M, 4x5", Sony F717, D70, D200, Canon 1Ds, II, D2x, D3, Canon 5D-II, D800E

I am doing real world comparisons.

Just look at the many discussions taking place here like:

A.) Should I use this or that combination
B.) What is the ideal even / concert combination
C.) This gear is better then that gear

So what I do is I compare friend's gears with their decisions in real world situation with my decision just to find out how clever or how unclever the decision can be.

I am not on a flower power trip and I do not want do do fair comparisons. Your gear vs mine in real world situations and let's how how that translates into results.

I'd love to own the D800E together with my lenses (if it would work) - I am totally disappointed that Canon did not bring out a 46 MPixel 5D III - so I start comparing gear how much do I loose in real world situations - I've never been that disappointed as with the 5D III - tried it and found it to be no value add in image quality at all.

All is just like Top Gear performs their tests - hope you enjoy them

BTW - I changed my mind to the better solution many times - the 24-105 is much better then expected by the way.

davexl said:

You have posted some pretty odd comparisons before, but this one takes the cake.

I am slow to notice patterns, but I think I see now the joger template:

1. Pro forma statement of neutrality (only valid for one paragraph)
2. Insert apples to oranges comparison, where hapless D800 will lose again to 5D-II/III.
3. Make as many variables as humanly possible different.
4. Draw sweeping conclusion to justify purchase/lack of purchase.
5. Debate and never, never change your mind.
6. Repeat.

While a lot of your points are totally valid and obvious - right tool for the job, total image chain, lenses are just as important as cameras etc, the sheer volume of self-justification posts makes me think you just can't get over the D800. If you were truly happy with every link in your chain you would not be posting these.

You have a great camera and some amazing glass. Just enjoy it.
--


Things I have clicked with: Agfa 110, Minolta X-300, X700, Nikon F3, F4, Hassleblad 500C/M, 4x5", Sony F717, D70, D200, Canon 1Ds, II, D2x, D3, Canon 5D-II, D800E

Click to expand...

--

isn’t it funny, a ship that leaks from the top

ISO 9000 definition of quality: 'Degree to which a set of inherent characteristic fulfills requirements'
I am the classic “Windows by Day, Mac by Night user'

“The horizon of many people is a circle with zero radius which they call their point of view.” Albert Einstein

joger said:

No doubt - the D800E is a very fine camera - BUT the 300 f/2.8 with the 2x plays in another league no matter how good the camera is - that is my point - before investing in cameras go for lenses

Click to expand...

You said before investing in cameras, invest in lenses. However, at the end of the day you still need the camera and would like to know that a newer updated model of your camera will be released in the future to use your lenses. If what you want is an updated 1DsIII, the 1DX isn't it. It's all about fps, and AF tracking etc. The 1DsIII was all about image quality and in its day was probably the best there was. The 1DX looks squarely aimed at the sports/PJ market.

Technology has moved on and by the look of things Canon seem to be dropping the 1DsIII line. If you want image quality what do you go for 5D3 or 1DX - or is Canon exiting this market?

Canon have some excellent glass - eg. their TS-E lenses are the best. These are manual focus only and shot at a rate of several minutes per frame vs frames per second.

For me this is a funny "scavenger hunt"

Sure you could do a 1:1 comparison and then the result is clear as can be. But the funny and sometimes enlightning aspect is the real world scenario - TopGear would phrase it this way: "You got a budget of 250 k USD - buy an Italian, German and American sports car and then do a scavenger hunt and let's see which country wins.

This is NOT about the brand or patriotism - it's all about real world situations and yes - the friend of mine needs some practice with his gear - but so does everyone from us too and I guess that's it in a nutshell - most gear heads and brand praisers never show a good meaningfull image or simply post boring laboratory shots that do mean nothing at all.

Go out and shoot and have fun.

The trusty 5D II is better then many would expect if you are a bit more clever then your neighbor with his new gear (not completely understanding what to do)

I'd love to have a D800E setup in a Canon - no doubt - my images would be even better but for now I am quite happy with the new lenses I bought - go Canon - bring out a nice 5D III successor that has the D800E specs ;-)

(then I will do some other weird comparisons for fun)

(I simply love some of the Canon lenses and I could not imagine photographing without them - the TS-E 17 is one of them)

I switched from Nikon to Canon because of some lenses and let me add this - when I posted the D800E comparison to the 5D II some said that comparing the 70-200 f/4.0 L IS USM at 200 mm and some 5 m distance to the 70-200 f/2.8 VR II one stop cloud down it is not a fair comparison because the Nikon lens is optimized for other distances - now I put a 2x converter on the Nikon and Canon at 50 m distance and compared the two tool chains and it is unfair again?

Most photographers I know use the 70-200 f/2.8 zooms and never consider a 300 mm prime - just think about the win in quality you'd have in your images even if you keep your old DSLR

Don't take everything so seriously - Photography is all about having fun and comparing the end results of real World shootings - the top getty images photographer is not asked which gear he used - he is entitled to bring good results back home
--

isn’t it funny, a ship that leaks from the top

ISO 9000 definition of quality: 'Degree to which a set of inherent characteristic fulfills requirements'
I am the classic “Windows by Day, Mac by Night user'

“The horizon of many people is a circle with zero radius which they call their point of view.” Albert Einstein

So the conclusion is..... Using the correct lens for a job is better than using the wrong lens.
Kevin

"a gear tool chain".

I suppose it replaces "equipment", or "tool set", or "set of tools", or "the whole keboodle".