T4i grossly overpriced at $950?

No offense but you are waaay off - see below.

MikeFromMesa said:

MikeFromMesa said:

My OM-D is actually a LOT more advanced camera in half the size & weight for $150 more

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I have, as they say, no dog in this fight, but I have just done a side-by-side comparison between the Oly and the Canon and I don't see why you think that the Oly is "a LOT more advanced" than the Canon.

The Oly sensor is smaller than the Canon's, the Canon image size is greater, the fast shutter speeds are the same, the ISO values go to the same value (although I suspect the Canon's highest ISO is really a "push"), the Canon has +2 EVs on the Oly, the Oly has a higher fps rate (but one would expect that for a mirrorless) and the comments I have seen about the Oly image DR have not been very favorable. I have, as I said, no "dog in this fight" so I am not baiting you or anyone else and, not having the Oly, I have no personal information about this. It is only what I have read on this forum.

Click to expand...

My OM-D is a fully weatherproof camera incl. lens (with my kit lens being a multi-purpose one: still, video and macro) it sports one of the fastest AF on the planet with 35 focus points , it comes with the world's best, most-advanced 5-axis stabilization system built right into the body which in video mode quite literally gives me Steadycam-quality solid footage , thanks to its brand-new, next-gen chip (made by a vendor Olympus do not want to name) OM-D's MFT IQ matches APS-C's and famous for having 12+ stops DR (see several tests in the MFT forum), comes with a 120fps EVF which gives me a full, live preview of how my shot will look like while I'm dialing different settings (FWIW one has to be absolutely clueless to call an OVF more advanced ), sports a Live bulb feature , can go as fast as 9fps or as slow as 60 seconds , it is far more advanced when it comes to settings, customization, menus etc and I can literally take it anywhere ...

...and so on and so forth.

The two things I hand it to the 650D are having a built-in flash (I personally don't care about it; the lack of focus assist lamp is just awful, using flash is nothing comparable, so much more intrusive, not to mention eating the battery) and giving an easier option for sports/fast-paced action shots.

MikeFromMesa said:

An argument can be made that the mirrorless cameras are, as a category, more advanced than the DSLRs but I am not sure that argument is sustainable. As a general rule the higher quality cameras like the Canon 5D3 and the Nikon D800 are all standard DSLRs and I suspect it will stay that way for quite some time.

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Funnny you say this - OM-D and D800 is the most sough-after cameras on the market, with months of wait time , let alone the fact that OM-D's high ISO is matching prev-gen FF's high ISO quality etc etc...

MikeFromMesa said:

MikeFromMesa said:

you need to learn a lot about the latest crop of mirrorless but still interchangeable lens cameras eg Olympus OM-D or even the Sony NEX-7...

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Actually I have been looking into these for some time now. I was particularly impressed with the Sony NEX-5N, but that is considerably less expensive than either the Canon 65D or the Oly you have. The Sony NEX-7 is even better, but that is considerably higher priced.

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NEX-7 is a bit overpriced, yes... but the OM-D is actually very affordable, for the money ($1k) you get something very close to a $3k camera.

MikeFromMesa said:

MikeFromMesa said:

Unless they are readying a small mirrorless too and saving up the price break for the introduction.

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I am sure that Canon is on the cusp of introducing a new mirrorless camera. The introduction of the new STM lenses certainly indicate that and, as dpreview stated in an article, Canon now has everything ready for a mirrorless camera. I would expect that before the end of the summer. I certainly have no knowledge about this, but that is what I suspect. I don't see how Canon can continue to be the only major camera maker with no entry in this market.

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I fully agree.

MikeFromMesa said:

But I assume that Canon, having been a player in this field for a very long time, knows what it is doing in its pricing policies and I would not look for a break in the price of the t4i (or, for that matter, for the 5D3 which everyone seems to think is way over-priced) with the introduction of their mirrorless camera or even the supposed low price Nikon full-frame. I think Canon is probably doing very well financially and I don't look for any quick drop in prices. It would be welcome, but I don't expect it.

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FF is a class in its own so I cannot comment on that albeit the D800 sets a new record among them, I think, it seems Nikon really hit a home run this time so I can imagine Canon will have to run some heavy promotion...

Oh I am sure the 650D will come down to 600D-level very quickly, within 6 months, by the end of the year.

--

http://instagr.am/p/JvSMWFBYyl
(Now you cannot say I don't have a single pic! )

szlevi said:

Funnny you say this - OM-D and D800 is the most sough-after cameras on the market, with months of wait time, let alone the fact that OM-D's high ISO is matching prev-gen FF's high ISO quality etc etc...

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Here you are comparing the OM-D with "prev-gen FF" cameras so you are not comparing them with the current DSLRs in terms of high ISO performance. You may or may not like the 5D3 but it is clear that it's high ISO performance is better than the OM-D as is the D800's high ISO performance. And, given that the only difference between prev-gen FF cameras like the 5D2 and the current gen 5D3 is about 1/2 stop of ISO, I would not think it would compare to the prev-gen FF cameras either.

szlevi said:

NEX-7 is a bit overpriced, yes... but the OM-D is actually very affordable, for the money ($1k) you get something very close to a $3k camera.

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I have not looked at the NEX-7 since they did not have one at BestBuy where I looked at the NEX-5N. But I would not compare it to a camera like Nikon's D800 or Canon's 5D3. The cameras are not in the same class.

szlevi said:

FF is a class in its own so I cannot comment on that albeit the D800 sets a new record among them, I think, it seems Nikon really hit a home run this time so I can imagine Canon will have to run some heavy promotion...

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I am guessing that Canon has not made its place in the market through "heavy promotion" and I expect that it will be releasing both a large MP DSLR as well as an entry level FF camera sometime this year. Of course I have no contacts in Canon development but information about Canon's plans is available on the web. In this case I got this from CanonRumors which says both of those (as well as 2 other new DLSR or mirrorless cameras) are due out this year. Canon (like Nikon and Sony) did not get their solid places in this market by not staying on top of what their competitors are doing and, when necessary, coming out with a direct competitor.

Wow, so you're saying a $3500 camera is more advanced than a $1000 cameras? I never would have guessed! He was talking about the T4i and you switched the topic to the 5D3 so you could say that a Canon was more advanced. At least that's what it seems like when you ignore a comparison that is unfavorable to Canon and instead turn to a totally irrelevant and unfair comparison (due to price difference).

MikeFromMesa said:

MikeFromMesa said:

Funnny you say this - OM-D and D800 is the most sough-after cameras on the market, with months of wait time, let alone the fact that OM-D's high ISO is matching prev-gen FF's high ISO quality etc etc...

Click to expand...

Here you are comparing the OM-D with "prev-gen FF" cameras so you are not comparing them with the current DSLRs in terms of high ISO performance. You may or may not like the 5D3 but it is clear that it's high ISO performance is better than the OM-D as is the D800's high ISO performance. And, given that the only difference between prev-gen FF cameras like the 5D2 and the current gen 5D3 is about 1/2 stop of ISO, I would not think it would compare to the prev-gen FF cameras either.

MikeFromMesa said:

NEX-7 is a bit overpriced, yes... but the OM-D is actually very affordable, for the money ($1k) you get something very close to a $3k camera.

Click to expand...

I have not looked at the NEX-7 since they did not have one at BestBuy where I looked at the NEX-5N. But I would not compare it to a camera like Nikon's D800 or Canon's 5D3. The cameras are not in the same class.

MikeFromMesa said:

FF is a class in its own so I cannot comment on that albeit the D800 sets a new record among them, I think, it seems Nikon really hit a home run this time so I can imagine Canon will have to run some heavy promotion...

Click to expand...

I am guessing that Canon has not made its place in the market through "heavy promotion" and I expect that it will be releasing both a large MP DSLR as well as an entry level FF camera sometime this year. Of course I have no contacts in Canon development but information about Canon's plans is available on the web. In this case I got this from CanonRumors which says both of those (as well as 2 other new DLSR or mirrorless cameras) are due out this year. Canon (like Nikon and Sony) did not get their solid places in this market by not staying on top of what their competitors are doing and, when necessary, coming out with a direct competitor.

Click to expand...

IcyVeins said:

Wow, so you're saying a $3500 camera is more advanced than a $1000 cameras? I never would have guessed! He was talking about the T4i and you switched the topic to the 5D3 so you could say that a Canon was more advanced. At least that's what it seems like when you ignore a comparison that is unfavorable to Canon and instead turn to a totally irrelevant and unfair comparison (due to price difference).

Click to expand...

No, you are misreading what I was saying. My comments about the 5D3 and the D800 were made in response to this part of his port

IcyVeins said:

that OM-D's high ISO is matching prev-gen FF's high ISO quality etc etc...

Click to expand...

Prev-gen FF's refers to full-frame cameras so he was not talking about the high ISO performance of the 600D or the 650D but the high ISO performance of the FF cameras. I did not "switch the topic" to the 5D2 or the 5D3. That is what the post referred to.

And, just to be clear, I am not saying that Canon is more advanced or better or higher quality than Nikon, Sony, Olympus or other camera manufacturers. It happens to be the camera I have, but if I was not so invested in Canon glass I would certainly consider switching to an equivalent camera from another manufacturer. And, when the current market shakes out and we know what is really available I might do it anyway. I like Canon, but I understand that the other manufacturers make products every bit as good and, in some respects, better.

The camera is a tool. It is not a part of my identity.

IcyVeins said:

Midwest said:

szlevi said:

...and I'm coming from an old Rebel XT so a T4i supposed to be impressive for me...

Canon's stupid and arrogant pricing tactics will damage their brand badly, you'll see next year when the mirrorless fever reaches the US (it's barely started yet.)

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Every new Rebel has started out at about this price level and then come down later. "Stupid and arrogant"? This is how all new products are introduced, with the early adopters paying the highest prices. People paid the equivalent of this price for much earlier Rebels.

Mirrorless fever? LOL. Why would I buy an artificially cramped, harder to use camera just to have something smaller which CAN'T do what I like doing with a true optical viewfinder? Oh, sure, that's what I want to do - switch to a less functional camera because it's the newest and latest "fever" but it's a couple ounces smaller and only moderately less useful! Wow, sounds great.

Click to expand...

LOL artificially cramped? What are you saying, that the rebel is "naturally expansive"? Brilliant observation.

Click to expand...

No, I am saying that it is not made with the objective in mind of being "small", but of being functional first and foremost. Don't deliberately misinterpret me and then make fun of me for your own imagination.

IcyVeins said:

Less functional? Based on what, the arbitrary functions you cherrypicked to justify such a description? Hey the Nikon D4 is less functional than the E-M5 because OMG NO TILT SCREEN!!!

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What's arbitrary? Having a genuinely functional optical viewfinder? Oh wait, I need it but I want a smaller camera so I guess I'll just do without?

You have some very nice and artistic images in your gallery and I am sure a mirrorless camera is just great for that sort of photography - not a whole lot of action, albeit some movement (a baseball pitcher winding up). A mirrorless camera would not work for me.

Fortunately I ascribe to these forums and others' posts their rightful place in my life. Way, way, way down there....

szlevi said:

Spoken like a true Midwestern...

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I lived in the Northeast a dozen years and fled back to America, never looking back.

szlevi said:

Midwest said:

szlevi said:

...and I'm coming from an old Rebel XT so a T4i supposed to be impressive for me...

Canon's stupid and arrogant pricing tactics will damage their brand badly, you'll see next year when the mirrorless fever reaches the US (it's barely started yet.)

Click to expand...

Every new Rebel has started out at about this price level and then come down later. "Stupid and arrogant"? This is how all new products are introduced, with the early adopters paying the highest prices. People paid the equivalent of this price for much earlier Rebels.

Mirrorless fever? LOL. Why would I buy an artificially cramped, harder to use camera just to have something smaller which CAN'T do what I like doing with a true optical viewfinder? Oh, sure, that's what I want to do - switch to a less functional camera because it's the newest and latest "fever" but it's a couple ounces smaller and only moderately less useful! Wow, sounds great.

Click to expand...

I am only replying to quote it so I can come back and use this hilariously clueless, idiotic post in the future every time when I will need an example of the DSLR crowd's utterly and hopelessly stupid nature...

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Don't stick your neck out too far on that. If your mirrorless camera is sufficient for flowers and tabletop condiment canisters then I am sure it's wonderful. I sometimes photograph action for which mirrorless is no good.

Some folks would get wound up over your rude and boneheaded comments, but as I posted elsewhere a minute ago, I ascribe to these forums (and those who post in them) their proper level of importance in my life - which is to say, not much.

Svlevi, have you compared the Olympus E-M5 with the m.Zuiko lenses to a Canon T4i (650D) with the EF-S lenses? I'm using both Olympus and Canon DSLR cameras. I just don't think Olympus offers m.Zuiko lenses that are competitively priced for their mirrorless cameras (the last time I checked). Yes, Olympus did well with this camera, but I don't think they are far enough ahead. They just got back into the game. Have you used a Canon T2i or Canon T3i? If the Canon T4i is that much better, the Olympus E-M5 will be competitive, but that's all. Again, consider the lenses too. You may be right...mirrorless may be the future...technology changes and some are slow to adapt with it. We'll just have to watch and see. Meanwhile, take lots of pics.

Midwest said:

szlevi said:

Spoken like a true Midwestern...

Click to expand...

I lived in the Northeast a dozen years and fled back to America, never looking back.

Midwest said:

Midwest said:

szlevi said:

...and I'm coming from an old Rebel XT so a T4i supposed to be impressive for me...

Canon's stupid and arrogant pricing tactics will damage their brand badly, you'll see next year when the mirrorless fever reaches the US (it's barely started yet.)

Click to expand...

Every new Rebel has started out at about this price level and then come down later. "Stupid and arrogant"? This is how all new products are introduced, with the early adopters paying the highest prices. People paid the equivalent of this price for much earlier Rebels.

Mirrorless fever? LOL. Why would I buy an artificially cramped, harder to use camera just to have something smaller which CAN'T do what I like doing with a true optical viewfinder? Oh, sure, that's what I want to do - switch to a less functional camera because it's the newest and latest "fever" but it's a couple ounces smaller and only moderately less useful! Wow, sounds great.

Click to expand...

I am only replying to quote it so I can come back and use this hilariously clueless, idiotic post in the future every time when I will need an example of the DSLR crowd's utterly and hopelessly stupid nature...

Click to expand...

Don't stick your neck out too far on that. If your mirrorless camera is sufficient for flowers and tabletop condiment canisters then I am sure it's wonderful. I sometimes photograph action for which mirrorless is no good.

Click to expand...

FYI OM-D is perfectly fine for action shots, it's just you have to know how to take them, that's all - which, if I understood your comment correctly, is not your forte... perhaps an advanced P&S would fit you even better?

In return for its learning curve the OM-D is a far superior camera in every way when compared to a bulky, entry-level Canon buffalo like the 650D.

However your "less functional" statement is just hilariously ignorant, along with the other one about OVF vs EVF - so much so that I don't think I need to add anything to them...

Another very funny claim was when you said you can take shots I cannot - the reality is that due to the limitations of a bulky-lousy entry level 650D it's pretty obvious that I will take plenty of shots you will never be able to (especially not on a moment's notice.)

Midwest said:

Some folks would get wound up over your rude and boneheaded comments, but as I posted elsewhere a minute ago, I ascribe to these forums (and those who post in them) their proper level of importance in my life - which is to say, not much.

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So do I - hence my reply.

--

http://instagr.am/p/JvSMWFBYyl
(Now you cannot say I don't have a single pic! )

Why does what should be a constructive exchange of opinions over new gear, always degrade into immature personal attacks?? Geze guys, stay on topic ;-)

I agree, some are overpriced but those are few and between IMO and you ought to compare only Canon IS lenses (and that's still not even near to match OM-D's new 5-axis IBIS, I'm telling you, I've used both), not to mention L ones (to match the sharpest MFT lenses.)

Before I picked up my weatherproof OM-D with the multi-purpose 12-50mm weatherproof kit lens (still, video, macro mode) I found a new Olympus 40-150mm R for $150 at J&R (not an exceptional lens but for the price it's fine), also available for /$99/ if you buy it directly from Oly, along with an OM-D or PEN kit - a Canon's EF-S 55-200 IS USM is around $200: http://www.amazon.com/Canon-55-250mm-4-0-5-6-Telephoto-Digital/dp/B0011NVMO8

45mm/1.8, one of the sharpest Olympus lenses of all-time (for still & video) was $379 on Tuesday when I was in B&H - which is the exact price of my previous EF 50mm/1.4 non-IS oldschool lens: http://www.amazon.com/Canon-Standard-Medium-Telephoto-Cameras/dp/B00009XVCZ or http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/12140-GREY/Canon_2515A003_50mm_f_1_4_USM_Autofocus.html

I am still trying to decide whether I should pick up the Leica-Pana 25mm/1.4 for $530 or not (B&H, Tuesday, always out of stock), another one of the sharpest lenses in MFT land - closest Canon is probably the EF 28mm/1.8 which is slower, non-L, non-IS yet normally still within $30 range, currently in a promo w/ another $40 off: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/102851-USA/Canon_2510A003_Wide_Angle_EF_28mm.html

The upcoming 75mm/1.8, albeit very fast, for $900 is a bad joke for me too, I fully agree if you find it overpriced.

Digirame said:

Svlevi, have you compared the Olympus E-M5 with the m.Zuiko lenses to a Canon T4i (650D) with the EF-S lenses? I'm using both Olympus and Canon DSLR cameras. I just don't think Olympus offers m.Zuiko lenses that are competitively priced for their mirrorless cameras (the last time I checked). Yes, Olympus did well with this camera, but I don't think they are far enough ahead. They just got back into the game. Have you used a Canon T2i or Canon T3i? If the Canon T4i is that much better, the Olympus E-M5 will be competitive, but that's all. Again, consider the lenses too. You may be right...mirrorless may be the future...technology changes and some are slow to adapt with it. We'll just have to watch and see. Meanwhile, take lots of pics.

Click to expand...

--

http://instagr.am/p/JvSMWFBYyl
(Now you cannot say I don't have a single pic! )

noonin said:

Why does what should be a constructive exchange of opinions over new gear, always degrade into immature personal attacks?? Geze guys, stay on topic ;-)

Click to expand...

Apologies but it's hard when someone is simply declaring less to be more...

--

http://instagr.am/p/JvSMWFBYyl
(Now you cannot say I don't have a single pic! )

szlevi said:

FYI OM-D is perfectly fine for action shots, it's just you have to know how to take them, that's all - which, if I understood your comment correctly, is not your forte... perhaps an advanced P&S would fit you even better?

Click to expand...

It appears to me from what little is in your gallery that you don't do any action photography or you would know better than to spout this nonsense. I suspect that a point and shoot would handle your purple flower and tabletop condiment canister very nicely though.

From dpreview's conclusion on the OM5:

However, despite Olympus' claims about improvements in continuous autofocus and subject tracking capability, we found the system too slow and unpredictable to develop much enthusiasm about. If you're careful about making sure the camera has locked onto a subject, you can expect to get a couple of sharp shots out of a burst but the results are patchy and, for the kinds of 'grab the moment' shooting you'd want it to work for, the results simply aren't reliable enough. The EM-5 is far from unusual in this respect (Continuous AF isn't a strength of contrast-detection AF), but for such an expensive model, and one for which Olympus is pushing the continuous AF capabilities, it's a disappointing result.

Tracking is a particular disappointment. If you specify an AF point, the camera will usually 'lock-on' to the correct subject but it gets very easily distracted. No matter how distinct the subject might appear (being the only red item in the frame, for instance), the camera will often decide it's much more interested in the background after a couple of frames. This, combined with the continuous AF's hunting, means you simply can't rely the system to get your shots in focus.

Unhelpfully, the camera doesn't indicate that Continuous Autofocus is not available in high-speed (9 fps) mode, and during shooting, you may never realize. With continuous tracking AF activated the focus tracking target will still move around the viewfinder as you capture your high-speed images, but the clue lies in the hundreds of out-of-focus shots that you'll end up with - the camera might behave like it's trying to track the subject, but focus is actually fixed at the first frame of the burst. To get tracking AF you have to shoot in Continuous L mode.

In other words, action shooters better look elsewhere - and they never even compared the EVF speed with an OVF, which of course would be pointless. So, bring on the flowers and tabletop condiment jars!

I've no doubt the OM5 is a very fine camera. Like all cameras it has its best uses and most appropriate users. It is not automatically better than another whole class of camera. Why do you come to another forum and try to dis the whole brand and type of camera? Just wondering. It seems like, well, trolling.

Midwest said:

szlevi said:

FYI OM-D is perfectly fine for action shots, it's just you have to know how to take them, that's all - which, if I understood your comment correctly, is not your forte... perhaps an advanced P&S would fit you even better?

Click to expand...

It appears to me from what little is in your gallery that you don't do any action photography or you would know better than to spout this nonsense. I suspect that a point and shoot would handle your purple flower and tabletop condiment canister very nicely though.

From dpreview's conclusion on the EM5:

However, despite Olympus' claims about improvements in continuous autofocus and subject tracking capability, we found the system too slow and unpredictable to develop much enthusiasm about. If you're careful about making sure the camera has locked onto a subject, you can expect to get a couple of sharp shots out of a burst but the results are patchy and, for the kinds of 'grab the moment' shooting you'd want it to work for, the results simply aren't reliable enough. The EM-5 is far from unusual in this respect (Continuous AF isn't a strength of contrast-detection AF), but for such an expensive model, and one for which Olympus is pushing the continuous AF capabilities, it's a disappointing result.

Tracking is a particular disappointment. If you specify an AF point, the camera will usually 'lock-on' to the correct subject but it gets very easily distracted. No matter how distinct the subject might appear (being the only red item in the frame, for instance), the camera will often decide it's much more interested in the background after a couple of frames. This, combined with the continuous AF's hunting, means you simply can't rely the system to get your shots in focus.

Unhelpfully, the camera doesn't indicate that Continuous Autofocus is not available in high-speed (9 fps) mode, and during shooting, you may never realize. With continuous tracking AF activated the focus tracking target will still move around the viewfinder as you capture your high-speed images, but the clue lies in the hundreds of out-of-focus shots that you'll end up with - the camera might behave like it's trying to track the subject, but focus is actually fixed at the first frame of the burst. To get tracking AF you have to shoot in Continuous L mode.

In other words, action shooters better look elsewhere - and they never even compared the EVF speed with an OVF, which of course would be pointless. So, bring on the flowers and tabletop condiment jars!

I've no doubt the EM5 is a very fine camera. Like all cameras it has its best uses and most appropriate users. It is not automatically better than another whole class of camera. Why do you come to another forum and try to dis the whole brand and type of camera? Just wondering. It seems like, well, trolling.

Click to expand...

--
'Bass-ackward' does not equate to 'superior'.

noonin said:

Why does what should be a constructive exchange of opinions over new gear, always degrade into immature personal attacks?? Geze guys, stay on topic ;-)

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I'll be glad to stay on topic. I didn't introduce the personal stuff.

szlevi said:

noonin said:

Why does what should be a constructive exchange of opinions over new gear, always degrade into immature personal attacks?? Geze guys, stay on topic ;-)

Click to expand...

Apologies but it's hard when someone is simply declaring less to be more...

Click to expand...

Or declaring less to be even "as much".

Right because Amazon numbers are so authoritative especially about worldwide sales...

xlotus said:

The only stupid people are those who think they know how a camera should be priced.

Companies like Canon must have done a lot of consideration in pricing their new product.

Beside, historically Canon consumer camera prices are known to fall over the next several months since they are available on the market.

So I am not put off by their 650D list price. I am sure I can get it perhaps $100 or more cheaper by end of year.

Yes, numbers don't lie.

It is a fact that Canon (and Nikon's) are still selling more DSLRs than those from other manufacturers.
See best selling digital cameras on Amazon.com here:

http://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers-Electronics-Digital-Cameras/zgbs/electronics/281052/ref=zg_bs_nav_e_2_502394

IcyVeins said:

Arrogant, sure. But stupid? Numbers don't lie. The only thing stupid is that people are willing to pay that much.

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--

http://instagr.am/p/JvSMWFBYyl
(Now you cannot say I don't have a single pic! )

Midwest said:

szlevi said:

noonin said:

Why does what should be a constructive exchange of opinions over new gear, always degrade into immature personal attacks?? Geze guys, stay on topic ;-)

Click to expand...

Apologies but it's hard when someone is simply declaring less to be more...

Click to expand...

Or declaring less to be even "as much".

Click to expand...

I went through this, showed feature-by-feature how much far ahead is the OM-D when compared to this warmed-up-soup entry-level Canon camera, you couldn't come with any meaningful reply.

In short: put up or shut up.

--

http://instagr.am/p/JvSMWFBYyl
(Now you cannot say I don't have a single pic! )