Will the built in flash in cameras become obsolete?

Visualise the built-in flash in every camer, from poin-and-shoot to DSLRs... What's his purpose? To illuminate dark scenes, and to be used as a fill-in flash in high contrast situations...

Now look at newly developed cameras: very high ISO values, noise is getting handled in better ways, and HDR is getting done in playback mode...

If the trend goes this way, I'm guessing that in a few years the "usable" ISO values will reach easily 25000+... And this will take care of the flash in the first cases... Whilst the HDR getting a better output in every new camera, will eliminate the need for a fill-in flash!

Obviously cameras with a hot shoe will still benefit from an external flash because no software can mimic the bounce flash, or studio requirements... but for the less important built-in flashes... I really guess there's not much left in their lives...

Your thoughts are much appreciated!

Flash, internal or external to the camera, will be eliminated only when the ambient light is exactly what you want, where you want, in the amount you want, and coming from the direction that you want.

May not even approach 90%.

Even the actual ambient light may have to be modified to capture the scene as our adaptable, flexible mind sees it.

Short answer: No.

I understand your point, but all the things you're saying refer to the more powerful / customizable flashes... What about the ones in the point and shoot sector?

Those ones barely have the on/off option...

I'm sure that partying people would prefer to have the whole party photographed, insted of a few burned faces in front of a completely black background...

Don't take this personally, most don't use their on camera flash even though it offers real advantages. You need flash out doors in bright lighting for example, so if your theory follows, you don't need fill flash outside, but you do. Now do most people use their fill flash outdoors - no!

--
"Photography is, indeed, an inclusive language."
Ansel Adams

rsn48 said:

You need flash out doors in bright lighting for example,

Click to expand...

Good point. I've noticed that when I'm indoors and take an available light photo, someone will say, "your flash didn't fire". When I'm outside in the sun and force the flash to fire, I get, "hey your flash went off". Then I see people taking pictures through the windows of the tour bus at night of the coliseum or some such, using flash to get a better picture.

I'm guessing we'll see in-camera flash for many years for all the people who need it. (too much sarcasm?)

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Darrell

Flash will always have it's use. A flash used as a fill in when say shooting a closing portrait which is overly back lit. Stick the lash on -1.7 and it will enhance the face that higher ISO would not be able to do. Fill in flash is local, ISO's effect are global over he whole image which s not what a photographer always needs.
Jules

Allioth said:

Visualise the built-in flash in every camer, from poin-and-shoot to DSLRs... What's his purpose? To illuminate dark scenes, and to be used as a fill-in flash in high contrast situations...

Now look at newly developed cameras: very high ISO values, noise is getting handled in better ways, and HDR is getting done in playback mode...

If the trend goes this way, I'm guessing that in a few years the "usable" ISO values will reach easily 25000+... And this will take care of the flash in the first cases... Whilst the HDR getting a better output in every new camera, will eliminate the need for a fill-in flash!

Obviously cameras with a hot shoe will still benefit from an external flash because no software can mimic the bounce flash, or studio requirements... but for the less important built-in flashes... I really guess there's not much left in their lives...

Your thoughts are much appreciated!

Click to expand...

--
Julesarnia on twitter

And that's why I said about the HDR... I'm not saying that fill-in flash can be replaced by higher ISO, as it would affect the whole picture! If you read my most, you'll see that I'm talking about ISO only for night use flash (think about a night party)... but I suggest the HDR for fill in flash... because that's what it does... it reduces the dinamic range between a dark subject in the front and the very bright background! Hence, if we would use HDR for the front subject, it would make the use of the flash redundant.

(and yes, I DO use flash... not built-in, as my camera doesn't have it, but an external one).

More and more cameras are coming out with handheld night shot program on them... What that does is to increase the ISO up to a point in which you can fire the camera without having to use a tripod... And that's the only way in which you can lit up a distant background (the picture of the Coliseum, for example)... Now, most of these program modes allow you to barely take a picture without showing significant shake in it... but think about 5 years from now... you'll be able to boost the ISO up to a 12.500 or even 25.000 so that a night shot made from a running bus to catch the Coliseum with natural light, will give you times of 1/500, for example...

Would you still use flash in that occasions? probably not...

HDR offers wonderful opportunities and will become more used as in-camera techniques improve.

But we will wait in vain for a computational technique that will understand what you see in your mind as you choose the balance/ratio between the artificial light (in-camera flash) on your subject against the sunset sky in the background.

And please remember that better cameras allow you to drag the shutter as well as choose the flash compensation (in addition to EV comp) that works for the scene in front of you.

Perhaps I'm beating this to death. After all, the use of flash will certainly change as sensitivity doubles a few more times. Perhaps the in-camera flash will change as well, perhaps in the direction of more precision, use of gels, etc. In any event, it will be a great deal of fun!

Nonotever

Allioth said:

Visualise the built-in flash in every camer, from poin-and-shoot to DSLRs... What's his purpose? To illuminate dark scenes, and to be used as a fill-in flash in high contrast situations...

Now look at newly developed cameras: very high ISO values, noise is getting handled in better ways, and HDR is getting done in playback mode...

If the trend goes this way, I'm guessing that in a few years the "usable" ISO values will reach easily 25000+... And this will take care of the flash in the first cases... Whilst the HDR getting a better output in every new camera, will eliminate the need for a fill-in flash!

Obviously cameras with a hot shoe will still benefit from an external flash because no software can mimic the bounce flash, or studio requirements... but for the less important built-in flashes... I really guess there's not much left in their lives...

Your thoughts are much appreciated!

Click to expand...

--
Everything happens for a reason. #1 reason: poor planning
WSSA #44

I don't think so. I use the built in flash quite a lot outdoors on bright sunny days.

There are certain items that folks get, don't use, then talk as though they are an expert because they own it and its sitting in their bag; doesn't matter the last time it was used was three years ago - once.

Pop up flashes fall in that category. The lowly pop up flash offers more than most realize; of course they would realize it if they learned to use EC and FC in their cameras. Most don't even know how to turn their fill flash on, this is even more true in the P&S market.

Some guy or gal will come to dpreview and ask what flash they should get. Then those who never used their pop up but bought a large flash (which sits in the bag unused as the newbie is too intimidated by it) because other folks who never used their pop up but bought a large complex flash, because others here recommended it.

These folks will tell you the pop up isn't powerful enough, the first clue they never used it. Remember the pop up is rated at ISO 100, but take your ISO up to 800 or 1600 depending on camera and you have a stronger flash. And remember since the flash is being used as "FILL FLASH" it isn't going off as strong as full flash.

So folks who never used their pop up but bought a large flash, they rarely use, advise others to do the same; and since the others never bothered to learn EC and FC with fill flash at higher ISO's go out and purchase the "Big" flash. Then these folks don't use their "BIG" flash but advise new newbies to do the same.

I could go on about the Canon (or all DSLR brands) 50 f1.8 lens, most bought, least used. Or tripods, still siting in the closet. Or filters to help with the sky, never purchased though relatively cheap. Or polarizing filters sitting in the bag while the owner complains about lack of contrast in bright condition shooting.

Go out and use your pop up flash, use it at least a 1000 times in fill mode with EC and FC and high ISO, then come back and make a prediction about it.

--
"Photography is, indeed, an inclusive language."
Ansel Adams

No. Well, maybe a built-in flash, yes, some cameras may not need it, especially pro ones. But for most, you will still need a flash whether it is mounted/add on or built-in.

The reason is that high ISO performance is not going to remove that raccoon eyes or dark areas in faces even if you can hit very high ISOs with little noise with today's cameras. One way or the other, you are going to need some light in certain situations.

Another situation is a bright background. You want to tone that down, but then your front subject will become dark. So, you need a flash so you can have the background/ambient light both in sync so you have a natural looking image.

A 3rd scenario is that even if you have even lighting on all fronts, and no raccoon eyes or dark shadows, if the shutter speeds required to get the shot is too slow, and the subject is relatively moving, you may have no choice but to fire a flash to help out with a higher shutter speed dialed in.

There are many situations that can arise, and I will stop here. For me, I don't use built-in flash often, but when I do, they are a heavy sent. It makes my job easier in spite of their limitations. And when you are traveling and don't want to lug to many gears, a built-in flash may just be your only artificial light to help you capture that image without carrying an external flash or any other lighting. And though very good high ISO helps, it is not the end all. There are still situations that you need some sort of light to help you out.

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• Caterpillar

'Always in the process of changing, growing, and transforming.'

Allioth said:

And that's why I said about the HDR... I'm not saying that fill-in flash can be replaced by higher ISO,

Click to expand...

That's odd, that's exactly what I thought you did say!

Allioth said:

as it would affect the whole picture! If you read my most, you'll see that I'm talking about ISO only for night use flash (think about a night party)... but I suggest the HDR for fill in flash... because that's what it does... it reduces the dinamic range between a dark subject in the front and the very bright background! Hence, if we would use HDR for the front subject, it would make the use of the flash redundant.

(and yes, I DO use flash... not built-in, as my camera doesn't have it, but an external one).

More and more cameras are coming out with handheld night shot program on them... What that does is to increase the ISO up to a point in which you can fire the camera without having to use a tripod... And that's the only way in which you can lit up a distant background (the picture of the Coliseum, for example)... Now, most of these program modes allow you to barely take a picture without showing significant shake in it... but think about 5 years from now... you'll be able to boost the ISO up to a 12.500 or even 25.000 so that a night shot made from a running bus to catch the Coliseum with natural light, will give you times of 1/500, for example...

Would you still use flash in that occasions? probably not...

Click to expand...

--
Julesarnia on twitter

I think the replies that have come so far show that you have little understanding of how to use a flash.
Jules

Allioth said:

Visualise the built-in flash in every camer, from poin-and-shoot to DSLRs... What's his purpose? To illuminate dark scenes, and to be used as a fill-in flash in high contrast situations...

Now look at newly developed cameras: very high ISO values, noise is getting handled in better ways, and HDR is getting done in playback mode...

If the trend goes this way, I'm guessing that in a few years the "usable" ISO values will reach easily 25000+... And this will take care of the flash in the first cases... Whilst the HDR getting a better output in every new camera, will eliminate the need for a fill-in flash!

Obviously cameras with a hot shoe will still benefit from an external flash because no software can mimic the bounce flash, or studio requirements... but for the less important built-in flashes... I really guess there's not much left in their lives...

Your thoughts are much appreciated!

Click to expand...

--
Julesarnia on twitter

caterpillar said:

The reason is that high ISO performance is not going to remove that raccoon eyes or dark areas in faces even if you can hit very high ISOs with little noise with today's cameras. One way or the other, you are going to need some light in certain situations.

Click to expand...

Actually you could simulate the effect of a flash with software. There are already some PS plus-ins that are doing just that although the difficulty is that there is no distance information in a picture. 3D photography would fix that.

Fill-flash is the main use of the pop-up flash that's why it's so useful although on a DSLR you're often limited to x-sync and need to use an external flash to bypass that limit. That's maybe why some high-end cameras like the Canon 5D don't have a pop-up flash.

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http://www.flickr.com/photos/ensh/

ManuH said:

Fill-flash is the main use of the pop-up flash that's why it's so useful although on a DSLR you're often limited to x-sync and need to use an external flash to bypass that limit. That's maybe why some high-end cameras like the Canon 5D don't have a pop-up flash.

--

Click to expand...

I think Canon missed a trick there wireless flash is useful

I have found that eventually Canon responds to the requests of users, after decades (lol) for example, they began adding spot metering to lower models. The reverse I hope will be true some day and they will add a pop up flash with wireless to the 5D series. With my 5D 2 I do use a smaller cheaper flash - the Metz 24 AF-1 - that does the job admirably for fill flash. I do have larger "better" flash, another Metz, but I rarely use it compared to how much I use the small Metz jobbie, its comparable to the Canon 220 or 270.

I prefer the small profile and low weight of the small Metz flash and I have yet to wish I had more power. The Metz is like the 270, ceiling bounce only so I bought a third party cord so now I can take it off camera and point in old way and it works just fine.

--
"Photography is, indeed, an inclusive language."
Ansel Adams

Darrell Spreen said:

rsn48 said:

You need flash out doors in bright lighting for example,

Click to expand...

Good point. I've noticed that when I'm indoors and take an available light photo, someone will say, "your flash didn't fire". When I'm outside in the sun and force the flash to fire, I get, "hey your flash went off". Then I see people taking pictures through the windows of the tour bus at night of the coliseum or some such, using flash to get a better picture.

I'm guessing we'll see in-camera flash for many years for all the people who need it. (too much sarcasm?)

--
Darrell

Click to expand...

There have been a few times when I had no choice but to take a flash photo through glass. I found if you shoot at a 45 degree angle to the glass the photo often comes out just fine.

ManuH said:

caterpillar said:

The reason is that high ISO performance is not going to remove that raccoon eyes or dark areas in faces even if you can hit very high ISOs with little noise with today's cameras. One way or the other, you are going to need some light in certain situations.

Click to expand...

Actually you could simulate the effect of a flash with software. There are already some PS plus-ins that are doing just that although the difficulty is that there is no distance information in a picture. 3D photography would fix that.

Click to expand...

Yes, you can. I've been doing that a decade ago using photoshop. And most of today's P&S camera can do that. My panny ts4 has that capability. The trouble with either solution is that you merely dig up the noise in those dark areas. Even with today's better low light sensors, there is a point where if it were very dark, bringing up the shadows will also bring up the noise. Not only that, details can be mushy depending on the camera involved.

You also did not address the other issues, such as balancing ambient light and subject, or maintaining a faster shutter speed but getting blurred images in the process.. This is why, even a small flash or a fill flash can be useful.

ManuH said:

Fill-flash is the main use of the pop-up flash that's why it's so useful although on a DSLR you're often limited to x-sync and need to use an external flash to bypass that limit. That's maybe why some high-end cameras like the Canon 5D don't have a pop-up flash.

Click to expand...

The high end cameras almost always assume you are carrying the rest of the party with you: extra glass, 2 or more flashes, tripod, etc. Most likely you are a serious enthusiast or a pro or semi-pro on a job or a mission. Even if you have a pop-up flash, that will likely not be satisfactory if we are talking about quality of the light. This is why most high end models don't sport them; and why low end or mid-end ones have them.

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• Caterpillar

'Always in the process of changing, growing, and transforming.'

Even though i retouch as a job I would not say that PS can replace the fill in lighting of a flash. It's a bit like saying that a great artist could actually have painted the photograph you took. maybe he could do a good job of it, but it just wouldn't be realistic. There is no real replacement for fill in flash and that is one of the reasons why cameras have a flash and why the OP's premise is wrong.
Jules

caterpillar said:

ManuH said:

caterpillar said:

The reason is that high ISO performance is not going to remove that raccoon eyes or dark areas in faces even if you can hit very high ISOs with little noise with today's cameras. One way or the other, you are going to need some light in certain situations.

Click to expand...

Actually you could simulate the effect of a flash with software. There are already some PS plus-ins that are doing just that although the difficulty is that there is no distance information in a picture. 3D photography would fix that.

Click to expand...

Yes, you can. I've been doing that a decade ago using photoshop. And most of today's P&S camera can do that. My panny ts4 has that capability. The trouble with either solution is that you merely dig up the noise in those dark areas. Even with today's better low light sensors, there is a point where if it were very dark, bringing up the shadows will also bring up the noise. Not only that, details can be mushy depending on the camera involved.

You also did not address the other issues, such as balancing ambient light and subject, or maintaining a faster shutter speed but getting blurred images in the process.. This is why, even a small flash or a fill flash can be useful.

caterpillar said:

Fill-flash is the main use of the pop-up flash that's why it's so useful although on a DSLR you're often limited to x-sync and need to use an external flash to bypass that limit. That's maybe why some high-end cameras like the Canon 5D don't have a pop-up flash.

Click to expand...

The high end cameras almost always assume you are carrying the rest of the party with you: extra glass, 2 or more flashes, tripod, etc. Most likely you are a serious enthusiast or a pro or semi-pro on a job or a mission. Even if you have a pop-up flash, that will likely not be satisfactory if we are talking about quality of the light. This is why most high end models don't sport them; and why low end or mid-end ones have them.

--
--------------------

• Caterpillar

'Always in the process of changing, growing, and transforming.'

Click to expand...

--
Julesarnia on twitter