Larry Winters
Senior Member
The aperture and ISO settings were the same for both the Auto DR400 and DR400. In my particular case they were f/4.5 and ISO 100.
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HS30EXR P versus EXR
- Thread starter Cliff Reiter
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Ralph McKenzie
Senior Member
Definitively, I never shoot anything other than EXR. The EXR Jpeg engine when used in EXR modes is very good and has a lot less noise than PASM modes.
There been some talk lately that using PASM modes in 8mp format yields an EXR mode. That is not so. Fuji's EXR technology site spells that out pretty clearly. You only get standard sensor resolution and no EXR processing.
To get the full benefit of the new sensor array you have to use EXR. PASM shot in 8mp mode will only give you normally processed images with the 16mp standard resolution. I have noted on occasion that there is less noise in the 8mp mode from the sensor in this setting, but its not as good as full blown EXR.
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Love dat Fuji
http://akiwiretrospective.blogspot.com/
Fuji HS20EXR
Fuji HS10,
Pentax K1000, Pentax sf7, Pentax zx-50
alexisgreat
Veteran Member
Ralph is this moreso the case with the new gen EXR HS series cams, or did you find this to be true with the HS20 also? So the only difference in PASM is the resolution being cut in half, rather than any real increase in DR or decrease in noise by using M size.
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Ralph McKenzie
Senior Member
I cant say about the other EXR cams, but I would be surprised to find they were different. The CCD EXR cams could well be considerably different to the BSI-Cmos cams of course.
I think what a lot of folks get tripped up on is that the EXR Jpeg engine is the other half of the equation with the HS20/30. You cant have one without the other, even Fuji's EXR website makes that clear.
The sensor certainly appears quieter in @8mp in PSAM mode. I noted that very early on in my original tests of the HS20. Image clarity and detail as well as increased DR and noise reduction are superior in the EXR modes. You can still use the standard settings and they are there for those who like to shoot A priority or similar, you just don't get the EXR processing.
I did a side by side P mode Vs SN mode a while back and the EXR SN mode was better all round for noise and clarity.
--
Love dat Fuji
http://akiwiretrospective.blogspot.com/
Fuji HS20EXR
Fuji HS10,
Pentax K1000, Pentax sf7, Pentax zx-50
I think what a lot of folks get tripped up on is that the EXR Jpeg engine is the other half of the equation with the HS20/30. You cant have one without the other, even Fuji's EXR website makes that clear.
The sensor certainly appears quieter in @8mp in PSAM mode. I noted that very early on in my original tests of the HS20. Image clarity and detail as well as increased DR and noise reduction are superior in the EXR modes. You can still use the standard settings and they are there for those who like to shoot A priority or similar, you just don't get the EXR processing.
I did a side by side P mode Vs SN mode a while back and the EXR SN mode was better all round for noise and clarity.
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Love dat Fuji
http://akiwiretrospective.blogspot.com/
Fuji HS20EXR
Fuji HS10,
Pentax K1000, Pentax sf7, Pentax zx-50
Kim Letkeman
Forum Pro
Interesting ... now here's the problem. Have you tested that formally? In other words from a tripod in light that was absolutely unchanging? Were these shot seconds apart?
I have noted that Fuji metering is not perfectly consistent from shot to shot, and I am shooting average metering lately myself. You would need to verify this assertion in several situations that automatically select DR400.
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Kim Letkeman
Forum Pro
I've not seen that effect. Are you saying this effect matters at all ISOs?
If you mean mainly high ISOs, are you saying that you prefer SN mode over PASM with DR400? Or you prefer EXR DR DR400 over PASM DR400?
I have tested this extensively and PASM M size DR400 looks exactly like EXR DR DR400 in bright light. It has been this way since the F70EXR.
I get 8MP all the time from PASM in JPG+RAW M4:3 mode. I don't understand at all what you mean here.
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Kim Letkeman
Forum Pro
I haven't seen the DR increase. And when you say EXR modes, you mean HR as well? These are not really comparable.
The five modes that are interesting to compare would be:
PASM DR400
PASM DRAUTO
EXR DR DR400
EXR DR DRAUTO
EXR SN (DR100)
Have you got a test of these in bright and dark conditions? I'd like to see the results.
SN is marginally better in some light. But SN forces DR100, which blows highlights indoors ... DR400 makes a much nicer job of indoor lighting, even in PASM modes.
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Larry Winters
Senior Member
Yes they were seconds apart on clear days with no clouds that might change exposure. Also all of them were shot at 24mm in the 1/300 to 1/450 range so I didn't see much need for a tripod. Maybe at different focal lengths the results might change. I will test further but right now the Auto DR seems fine to me.
I have tried this on multiple days with various lighting conditions and different times of the day. All are consistent with the Auto DR400 exposing about 1/2 stop over the manual DR400 using center average metering. At least 15 different conditions and times over 3 days. All were very sunny days so maybe incliment weather may provide a different result. I haven't done a conclusive indoor test yet.
I tried the same outdoor test today with multi-pattern and the results were the same except the Auto DR400 exposed only about 1/3 stop over and not 1/2. I also tried wide open at f/2.8 instead of the f/4.5 and the 1/3 stop over in multi-pattern was the same. Then I switched to center average metering at f/2.8 and the results were back to same 1/2 stop over for the Auto DR400.
I'm wondering if the Auto DR uses a mixture of DR100-200-400 and then states whichever one was the strongest in the exposure.
Larry Winters
Senior Member
I tried your test today and as expected the DR400 toned down the pattern metering. In about half the cases the pattern with DR400 held the shadows better with excellent highlight control while the other half the average metering with Auto DR performed better. When I get some more time I test further and indoors.Larry, that's why I use the combo of matrix metering and DR 400 (at M size)..... the two variances (matrix overexposing and DR 400 underexposing) cancel each other out (for the most part.) You keep highlights under control and you also hold the shadows.
Try this experiment in your landscape shooting in the future: at M size Average Metering + Auto DR 400 vs M size Matrix Metering + DR 400, both in A priority mode. Choose largest aperture. Make note of shutter speed, ISO and DR value (in AUTO DR mode) chosen by the camera.
Gotta get ready for lady Venus in a couple hours. I'm sure you're ready. I don't plan on taking any pics this time. Just binocs and a 20x-60x 85mm spotting scope. Other than the first 18 minutes they say, the rest is just like a slightly darker moving sun spot.
Ralph McKenzie
Senior Member
Yes it does. The higher you go up the ISO ladder the better noise is controlled in the EXR settings Vs PASM.
This of course could be unique to the HS20.
I will opt in most cases for EXR DR but switch to EXR SN as a backup if light value drops too much. If in SN mode I may drop EV a little to help protect the highlights. This is of course scene specific and depends on light sources.
In bright light, yes they do look very similar, in M mode. Once the light levels drop, especially if you are shooting ISO400 up, the noise level differences can be quite marked. Its actually annoying as there have been many occasions where I know I could get a better shot if using Aperture Priority but the noise levels make in less than useful, night shots in this mode can lead to considerable noise. Strangely ISO 200 in the HS20 is actually worse than ISO400.
Easiest way to think of it is like you actually have two sensors in the one camera. If you us PASM modes you get what you would expect from standard sensor with a DR range of 400% and normal image sizes.
If you switch to EXR you get increased DR and better JPEG processing for noise and sharpness, or better resolution to noise ratios , or better resolution and detail sharpness, things that aren't available to the operator in the standard modes. However there is a trade-off in some of these modes,reduced ISO capability or reduced DR. And of course you get the EXR processing if you shoot RAW as well.
Love dat Fuji
http://akiwiretrospective.blogspot.com/
Fuji HS20EXR
Fuji HS10,
Pentax K1000, Pentax sf7, Pentax zx-50
Ralph McKenzie
Senior Member
In the HS20 at least that's precisely what it does if you use Auto DR. I do however feel that its not using a mixture but actually setting what the camera thinks is the nearest correct value. Because I was getting variable results using DR 400 in Auto mode I now set the camera at DR200%. Its a good setting for most shooting and I only lift it when I get to scenes that have large variances in brightness and shadow, up to in some cases DR1600%
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Love dat Fuji
http://akiwiretrospective.blogspot.com/
Fuji HS20EXR
Fuji HS10,
Pentax K1000, Pentax sf7, Pentax zx-50
Ralph McKenzie
Senior Member
Yes I would include HR modes as well, the resolution/noise ratio in this mode is much better than people tend to think.
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I don't and wouldn't shoot these cameras in Auto mode. Both the HS10 and my HS20 are woeful shooting in any of these auto modes. I discovered that in the first weeks that I have had these cameras. The amount of blown shots, under/over exposed and incorrectly metered shots was appalling. After having the HS10 for a few days I almost returned it but persevered and found it to be a slow but a nice cam nonetheless. The HS20 apart from its less than stellar video and its unreliable Auto modes was a better cam right from the start.
At present I only have P mode Vs SN mode which is here, by no means definitive but serves to highlight what the camera is doing.
http://akiwiretrospective.blogspot.co.nz/2011/09/reviewing-hs20exr-updatept3.html?utm_source=BP_recent
Dr 400 can indeed make a difference, it just depends on how much noise you can accept and whether dropping the Ev in SN mode will be beneficial.
--
Love dat Fuji
http://akiwiretrospective.blogspot.com/
Fuji HS20EXR
Fuji HS10,
Pentax K1000, Pentax sf7, Pentax zx-50
Kim Letkeman
Forum Pro
I'm not sure how you got those results, but the difference is so vast as to suggest the wrong setting somewhere.
Here are my results, shot and processed a few minutes ago.
http://kimletkeman.blogspot.ca/2012/06/hs25-review-part-17-exr-dr-versus-exr.html
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Kim Letkeman
Forum Pro
Unlikely. There is no way that Fuji would have one camera with this vast difference and cameras like the HS25 and F550EXR that share basically the same sensor have very little difference.
I'm seeing very little difference with the HS25 and F550EXR.
http://kimletkeman.blogspot.ca/2012/06/hs25-review-part-17-exr-dr-versus-exr.html
This is perplexing to me, as I see no real advantage to SN mode in my tests and the very real disadvantage of DR100. Yet your tests show massive differences.
Well, there is only one sensor and in M mode it always operates the same way. The main difference in SN mode is forced DR100, which I really dislike as lights and reflections are always blown out.
I can't confirm your comments with my own tests so I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.
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alexisgreat
Veteran Member
Kim, could it possibly be that, like your test with the HS25, the other EXR cameras are merely underexposing a bit in EXR mode, thus the DR is the same as A priority M size DR400, but underexposure makes it seem like EXR DR400 is better?
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http://Alex_the_GREAT.photoshop.com
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alexisgreat
Veteran Member
Kim, I'm wondering if Ralph's camera is at a variance from the typical sample. If you go to Eric's site, there seems to be no difference in noise between the HS20 and HS25, and also only a very small difference between EXR SN and the semimanual modes.
Scroll down here to compare:
http://www.photonumeric.fr/test-hs30exr-6/index.html
The DR comparison also seems to indicate a bit of underexposure being involved.
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Scroll down here to compare:
http://www.photonumeric.fr/test-hs30exr-6/index.html
The DR comparison also seems to indicate a bit of underexposure being involved.
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http://Alex_the_GREAT.photoshop.com
Larry Winters
Senior Member
That would seem the most logical but is the camera metering the entire scene at 400% in Auto DR mode. If so, why the difference? Maybe just another one of those unanswered questions about EXR sensor technology. I was just curious if this was normal and at least from your findings and mine it appears so.
Ralph McKenzie
Senior Member
Looking at the comparisons he shows seems to point to the HS20 as being the cleaner of the two cameras detail wise. Even at high ISO the HS20 still looks better.
--
Love dat Fuji
http://akiwiretrospective.blogspot.com/
Fuji HS20EXR
Fuji HS10,
Pentax K1000, Pentax sf7, Pentax zx-50
Tim39
Senior Member
Last truly great bargain, both in terms of price and seller, I saw on the HS20 was about $289 (USD), new, from buydig. Those are gone now and what seems like the best deal, to me, is an open box from Henry's on ebay, current bid $270 (USD).
Considering the '20's bumpy beginning, I'd only go new and from a seller with an unquestioned return policy. But that's just me.
Tim
Considering the '20's bumpy beginning, I'd only go new and from a seller with an unquestioned return policy. But that's just me.
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Tim
alexisgreat
Veteran Member
I agree Ralph, you can see more detail on the clock face and the resolution seems to be a bit higher. Oops, in the original post I said he was comparing the HS20 and HS25, I meant HS20 and HS30..... and it's the HS20 which seems to fair slightly better at higher ISO.
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