Recent epiphany in EXR blog article

Trevor, it sounds like that extra 1.2 stops the RAW M size DR400 image gets over the Jpeg M size DR400 image in highlight recovery is = to the extended dynamic range. We aren't getting more shadow detail, but at least we are preserving what was already in the image instead of losing it to noise or shadow clipping.
--
http://Alex_the_GREAT.photoshop.com
 
So basically what you and Trevor are saying is that compared to a Jpeg M size DR400 image, a RAW M size DR400 recovers an additional stop to 1.2 stops of highlights.
No, I am saying that the DR 400 JPG protects the same 2.7 EV of highlights that the corresponding raw file at same ISO does (at least for HR DR files where ISO is equal or higher than DR and M/L size doesn't matter anyway). You just don't get any control over how gradations are distributed (only 256 gray steps in an 8 bit JPG), which may be reason enough to work with the raw file instead.

The latter doesn't necessarily mean that highlight gradations are badly distributed, which is something that Trevor seems to assume. You have to do your own test/comparison and decide if the outcome of working with the raw files brings sufficient benefits for the extra work.
 
Thanks Timur! Would you consider the last one (6MP) to offer the most DR/highlight headroom and best image quality?
No, it seems to offer the same DR/highlight headroom as the 12 MP files. The only difference is that 6 MP files are pre-binned by the camera instead of the raw converter and that tone-curves are applied differently.

I consider it more of a bug than a feature, especially if you consider that Capture One crashes when you try to open such a file and both Lightroom's and Silkypix' controls react so differently compared to other raw files. The main "advantage" of using these 6 MP raw files is when you trust the in-camera binning process more than the raw software or if for some reason you prefer the different tone-curve behavior.
 
John Carson wrote:

It does, however, strike me as a little strange that you would choose to post here first rather than make a comment on Kim's blog.
Simple. When anyone posts here, their content gets aired without censorship. If that post is deemed "bang out of order", it may get deleted afterwards if complaints are made by other members. But the initial post will always get aired and will be uncensored. You are guaranteed your initial voice or opinion no matter how bad or good it is.

On Kim's blog it is quite different. He is the Lord of his Realm and he censors all content posted there. Then he makes a decision as to what gets posted and what doesn't. So there is no 100% guarantee that the OP's voice will get an airing on Kim's blog.

Stephen
 
Silent Oracle....you are some joke...seriously!

If we want to see some shameful attack posts, all we have to do is dig up some of YOUR past posts (if there is any left after being deleted). You might come across as all sweety now...but long time members will recall were you litterally slaughted and verbally abused Kim yourself on a daily basis. You have a very short memory.

So someone should complain you for wasting the moderators time. There is nothing wrong with the OP's post. He is challenging some of Kim's articles and is entitled to do so if he feels there is mis-information on them. I mean, Kim always touted that one of the reasons he posts here is to correct mis-information himself. What good for the goose is good for the gander.

--
Stephen
 
That and the fact that Kim has disputed most of my arguments on this forum, while now coming to similar conclusions on at least one point. Kim and I both are members of this community here, so I keep my posts on this community instead of carrying them to someone's blog comments.

This thread helps both to carry my own findings and Kim's now "corrected" blog further into the collective minds of the community. Cannot be to bad to remind people sometimes that there is no monopoly on EXR authority, but some quite differing views and understandings.

Kim's and mine tend to clash sometimes (when he chooses to even read and consider them).
 
but long time members will recall were you litterally slaughted and verbally abused Kim yourself on a daily basis. You have a very short memory.
Didn't I even once defend Kim against an argument made by SO, or was it Bill? If memory doesn't fail me it cannot be too long ago then, since I only joined in December. If it does fail me then it was one of the other rather vocal forum members who couldn't accept another member being just as vocal about his views.
 
John Carson wrote:

It does, however, strike me as a little strange that you would choose to post here first rather than make a comment on Kim's blog.
Simple. When anyone posts here, their content gets aired without censorship. If that post is deemed "bang out of order", it may get deleted afterwards if complaints are made by other members. But the initial post will always get aired and will be uncensored. You are guaranteed your initial voice or opinion no matter how bad or good it is.

On Kim's blog it is quite different. He is the Lord of his Realm and he censors all content posted there. Then he makes a decision as to what gets posted and what doesn't. So there is no 100% guarantee that the OP's voice will get an airing on Kim's blog.
Saying "he censors all content" and "there is no 100% guarantee that the OP's voice will get an airing" gives two very different impressions.

What is apparently true is that the comments on Kim's blog are moderated, as are the comments on many blogs. That fact alone doesn't seem to me to be reason enough to post here in the first instance. I understand the argument that lots of people here may be interested, but I still think it is appropriate to engage with a person in the place where he expressed his views.

--
john carson
 
John Carson wrote:

I understand the argument that lots of people here may be interested, but I still think it is appropriate to engage with a person in the place where he expressed his views.
He may have expressed his views on his blog, but have you proof that the actual first discussion took place on the blog and not on this forum??

I have seen many a thread about a cameras performance starting on this forum first. Then you might get people like Kim and others who might get involved in the discussion and say something like "I have done my own tests and you can find them here"....with a link to their own blog. But the initial discussion would have taken place here....not on someones blog.

So have you proof John, that Kim started this discussion on his blog first and not here?? If the initial discussion took place here, then the OP quite rightly points out that it should be kept here.

There are a lot of people using this forum just to promote their blogs for their own personal benefit. Anytime I hit on Kim's blog weather it's of use to me or not, he benefits....period. He can argue all he wants, but thats a fact.

--
Stephen
 
John Carson wrote:

I understand the argument that lots of people here may be interested, but I still think it is appropriate to engage with a person in the place where he expressed his views.
He may have expressed his views on his blog, but have you proof that the actual first discussion took place on the blog and not on this forum??

I have seen many a thread about a cameras performance starting on this forum first. Then you might get people like Kim and others who might get involved in the discussion and say something like "I have done my own tests and you can find them here"....with a link to their own blog. But the initial discussion would have taken place here....not on someones blog.

So have you proof John, that Kim started this discussion on his blog first and not here?? If the initial discussion took place here, then the OP quite rightly points out that it should be kept here.
I suppose you have a point. The OP's post quotes from Kim's blog, which makes Kim's blog seem the more natural place to reply. However, if there has been hopping back and forth between forums, then the OP's behaviour is more understandable.

--
john carson
 
but long time members will recall were you litterally slaughted and verbally abused Kim yourself on a daily basis. You have a very short memory.
Didn't I even once defend Kim against an argument made by SO, or was it Bill? If memory doesn't fail me it cannot be too long ago then, since I only joined in December. If it does fail me then it was one of the other rather vocal forum members who couldn't accept another member being just as vocal about his views.
ABSOLUTELY INCORRECT. If you defended Kim, it wasn't due to anything that I said. Go back and read the history in December Mister Born before making such outrageous assumptions.

And defending Kim then does not justify your attack thread. And buddying-up with Stephen isn't going to make you any points; he is not well-liked here.
--
Jada

http://silentoracle.weebly.com/blog.html
 
I have lost interest in keeping track of every eccentricity of the EXR cameras, so I have nothing to say on the substance of the issue under discussion.

It does, however, strike me as a little strange that you would choose to post here first rather than make a comment on Kim's blog.
Exactly. And this thread isn't legit like Packy is saying, either - or is his name Stephen....or Patrick....yep. I still have his oozing, gushing PM to me from a couple of years back where he is bashing Kim like a brick on a wall. Packy-Stephen-Patrick, you may want to check yours - or I can post what you said here if you like. He had posted on one of my threads, sharing one of his band images, then the rather kind and generous PM to me that followed - admitting that he was another person that had posted here. Let me go puke now. Give me your hat, Packy. If you want to play hardball - you're out of your league with me, puddin' pants.

Timor knew exactly what he was doing, unless he is an idiot. Hum...perhaps he didn't know what he was doing as this is an idiot thread if there ever was one.
--
Jada

http://silentoracle.weebly.com/blog.html
 
Anytime I hit on Kim's blog weather it's of use to me or not, he benefits....period. He can argue all he wants, but thats a fact.

--
A horrific misconception. Most blogs don't make a penny off of visits. I make absolutely nothing off of mine. If there are ads on the page and someone clicks - that's where the blogger benefits. Mine is ad-free as are most of the other blogs that people have who post here.
--
Jada

http://silentoracle.weebly.com/blog.html
 
Kim, when you get the chance, you should post the website hit graphics from after this thread was created ;-)
Yes, one should consider who (se blog) is getting the attention here. Surely not mine (I don't run one). ;)
a) You created the thread to slam my blog without actually linking to it. That was a little sleazy. But it is on you if my blog gets a little extra attention form this thread (and frankly, the traffic does not actually seem to bear this out.)

b) You don't appear to have any repository of articles, I agree. Instead you prefer to post volumes of unstructured data and then try to convince people that you know exactly what is happening inside EXR cameras. Your posts have shed some light on some issues, but in toto they ramble and obfuscate more than they educate. Unfortunate, but such is life.

--
http://kimletkeman.blogspot.com
 
The half size raw file will still have the full dynamic range of a full size raw, but the tone-curve will behave differently in a raw converter. This means that using the same slider values for a half size raw file will yield different results than for a full size raw file, even when both images used the very same settings on the camera!
Having converted tens of thousands of images, I can tell you that every image is an individual. As soon as you change even one little thing, either in the camera or in the composition, you must pay attention to each slider separately.

Only when you explicitly shoot a series of images with the same lighting and the same settings can you run a series of conversions without moving the sliders (and even then, the shadow highlight balance can change with the composition, requiring some tweaks for each image.)

The user needs no warning, unless you think I should be teaching basic RAW conversion in that article. Seems out of scope.
And since you are proposing AUTO ISO users will end up with a mixture of both half and full size raw files which will behave differently in post-processing. I think this is well worth a mentioning.
Why? It is obvious immediately that the file will not behave the same. And experience RAW people will understand already that every file is an individual.
As far as "busting your chops" is concerned, you could have arrived there a lot earlier if you wouldn't be so stubborn on not allowing anyone on your intellectual turf, as in taking advice from other people more seriously.
That article has a comments section with hundreds of comments in it spanning years. Some of those comments document errors or omissions that caused me to update the article.

You chose instead to create a thread to deliver a minor erratum after trying to take credit for a change in my recommendations. Whether or not your voluminous writings had an effect on my testing is irrelevant. Lots of people have had an effect on my testing, that is actually how it works.

But you create an entire thread just to make sure that people understood that you are the puppet master. Seems rather self serving to be honest.

And yes, I do not take such people all that seriously.

--
http://kimletkeman.blogspot.com
 
As a fairly new owner of an F505 exr I want to take this opportunity to thank you for your blog, and to thank you and others that post here for their info.

The wealth of info is one reason why I enjoy this camera.
 
John Carson wrote:

It does, however, strike me as a little strange that you would choose to post here first rather than make a comment on Kim's blog.
Simple. When anyone posts here, their content gets aired without censorship.
Come on Packy. I've been very clear that the only comment censorship I practice is stuff that is too filthy to post. You know who I mean.

I moderated one post of Ratty's because it was a 100% repetition of the previous one in a debate. And I made that clear in my own comment to that effect.

To make this blatant charge is just puerile.
On Kim's blog it is quite different. He is the Lord of his Realm and he censors all content posted there. Then he makes a decision as to what gets posted and what doesn't. So there is no 100% guarantee that the OP's voice will get an airing on Kim's blog.
That, in a nutshell, shows the depth of your recent agenda.

--
http://kimletkeman.blogspot.com
 

Keyboard shortcuts

Back
Top