X10 visits Plet (B&W x 6)

And few from me ..

C&Cs welcome

























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heartofthetwilight.blogspot.com

CloudyBay43 said:

And few from me ..

C&Cs welcome

Click to expand...

Without wishing to impose, I wonder what the rationale is of turning these images into B&W (except perhaps for the first one). Could you please explain what (in your opinion) the B&W version (of these specific shots - NOT generally) offer more than their original color equivalents?
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Best Regards
Sunshine

ps If you see someone without a smile on, give him one of yours...

A very good question ! I've been struggling with same for a long time now.

Here is my answer, a shorter version of it, which is strictly personal - a personal choice and understanding about photography :

1. The colors are good, but .. they look like postcards. If im to use strong words, then i'll say that I cannot stand postcard photography.

2. Diane Arbus or Dorothea Lange i think said something like, when you look at color photography of someone, you look at their clothes, when you look at the B&W photography - at their souls .. I fully subscribe to this, although have great color images from contemporary masters in my collection: Alexander Gronsky, Gregory Crewdson, Bill Henson - to mention a few..

3. Black and white somehow ringfences a photo - lets the composition and light talk to you, not the color.. A photo with bright greens, blues and reds next to each other - the colors of the objects in it, is a pain to my eyes, the same in B&W / Rollei processed version, becomes a composition of forms and light, with message or a feeling which comes forward

And i stop here, because can right a book on this in my own words, and this is unfit.

In the end of the day, its horses for courses - bright light (sun), shadow - good daylight in principle - and i want to kill the color. Low light, night, etc - i want the color out .. The color versions are very good, but i find myself going back to the B&Ws ..

Hope this answers your question
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heartofthetwilight.blogspot.com

OK .. here's the light / time of day where it's a toss, with color starting fast to become the preferred rendering :













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heartofthetwilight.blogspot.com

CloudyBay43 said:

Sunshine said:

Without wishing to impose, I wonder what the rationale is of turning these images into B&W (except perhaps for the first one). Could you please explain what (in your opinion) the B&W version (of these specific shots - NOT generally) offer more than their original color equivalents?

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

CloudyBay43 said:

A very good question ! I've been struggling with same for a long time now.

Click to expand...

So have I. That's why I am asking. I understand that some kind of images 'talk' more and better when in B&W but I am disappointed (almost annoyed) when I see photographers turning everything into B&W. And I genuinely wonder why. They must have a reason and unless I ask I will never know...

I picked the above photo of yours and also tried to find something similar from my collection (to save asking you to post a color version of yours to help our discussion).

CloudyBay43 said:

Here is my answer, a shorter version of it, which is strictly personal - a personal choice and understanding about photography :

1. The colors are good, but .. they look like postcards. If im to use strong words, then i'll say that I cannot stand postcard photography.

Click to expand...

What is it that bothers you about postcards and how does the B&W version of the above photo eliminate it?

CloudyBay43 said:

2. Diane Arbus or Dorothea Lange i think said something like, when you look at color photography of someone , you look at their clothes, when you look at the B&W photography - at their souls .. I fully subscribe to this, although have great color images from contemporary masters in my collection: Alexander Gronsky, Gregory Crewdson, Bill Henson - to mention a few..

Click to expand...

OK, fine and well understood for portraits or photos of a person. But here we are talking about a hotel on a sunny beach. No persons, souls or clothes involved. That is why I made particular reference to the pics you posted (instead of talking about B&W in general). So, what would Ms Diane or Dorothea (and yourself) offer as a good reason to turn THIS image (with no visible details of people in it) into B&W?

CloudyBay43 said:

3. Black and white somehow ringfences a photo - lets the composition and light talk to you, not the color.. A photo with bright greens, blues and reds next to each other - the colors of the objects in it, is a pain to my eyes, the same in B&W / Rollei processed version, becomes a composition of forms and light, with message or a feeling which comes forward

Click to expand...

Please tell me what extra 'talk' or 'messages' are you receiving from the composition and light of the above image, that would not come through from its color equivalent. Also, please look at the image below and do the same. It will be much easier having both versions together.

Please try to point out to me how the totally natural colors of the shot below hurt your eyes because I cannot feel the same pain!... If it were a shot with weird funky colors I would know what you meant but I'm afraid I cannot figure out the culprit in a natural colored setting as this or your shot for that matter.

CloudyBay43 said:

And i stop here, because can write a book on this in my own words, and this is unfit.

In the end of the day, its horses for courses - bright light (sun), shadow - good daylight in principle - and i want to kill the color. Low light, night, etc - i want the color out .. The color versions are very good, but i find myself going back to the B&Ws ..

Click to expand...

I'm afraid I could not follow you here...
Who/what are the horses and which/where are the courses?

And does this 'kill/revive the color' urge of yours apply to all photos regardless of content, circumstance and objective of the photo (if any)?

CloudyBay43 said:

Hope this answers your question

Click to expand...

Well, NOT really! In fact I am even more puzzled now with more questions unanswered. Maybe, after I get some of these answers from you (or anyone else who cares to join us), I will know and understand your reasoning better, even if I do not agree with it...

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Best Regards
Sunshine

ps If you see someone without a smile on, give him one of yours...

Sunshine_boy said:

Without wishing to impose, I wonder what the rationale is of turning these images into B&W (except perhaps for the first one).

Click to expand...

I concur. I think B&W adds to the drama of the subject, if there is drama in the subject.

Otherwise, color is the natural state of the universe.

George
Bedford, TX

Argie said:

Sunshine_boy said:

Without wishing to impose, I wonder what the rationale is of turning these images into B&W (except perhaps for the first one).

Click to expand...

I concur. I think B&W adds to the drama of the subject, if there is drama in the subject.

Otherwise, color is the natural state of the universe.

Click to expand...

Thank you George. IF is the word. IF the scene calls for B&W for no color distraction, I'll go along with it. But there seems to be a group of people that seem to think that B&W makes them kind of advanced sophisticated artists. I really laugh when I look at a photo set which was shot during a walk. Automatically it is labelled 'Street Photography' and goes into B&W. Regardless of scene or content.

Where appropriate, B&W is fine and enjoyable. But where it is not, imo it becomes a laughable form of misconceived 'art nouveau'. I look fwd to getting some rational explanation of the phenomenon from the OP or any other person who practices same.

Cheers

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Best Regards
Sunshine

ps If you see someone without a smile on, give him one of yours...

Good response, Cloudy. It's all about the message of the picture. If the artist believes the color distracts or hinders the message, then so be it.

I thought the question about your choice was a fair and interesting one.

Really enjoyed these! Especially so the third, fourth & the last. Great work.

Dan.

I love b&w when its done well, these certainly are very adept so qualify well within that class.

Perhaps the limiting of the visual senses by taking away one aspect, in this case colour, affords the viewer a new perspective as an outsider. The time reference is also loosened, placing the frame somewhere in the history of b&w photography - giving further reinforcement to notions of intimate observer.

Altering the viewer perspective is very powerful, very intimate and gives rise to the possibility for expression of insights, ideas and beliefs.

The arts and advertising, if that distinction exists, use techniques such as this to deliver strong messages to other people sometimes so effectively that the receiver believes that notions put are their own.

In sociology this is known as ideological hegemony, the ability of one group of people to propagate an idea to others in such a fashion that they believe it is their own.

Thanks Max

I wish i was able to define the purpose and freedom of expression so well, as you did - you simply spoke what i could not put down in words, or not so well ! I bow to you for the your "time reference" sentence below, which starts to define my rejection of present / real, digital and "un-analogue" in most things i create or enjoy after the day has closed.

For obvious reasons i decided to ignore sunshine_boy's reply which i perceived much more as a personal attack than a constructive photo critique. I largely agree with Argie, just that Argie could consider that there IS drama for me in these images ..

And if i have a weakness by obsession with a certain film look, which i find fit for drama images - the Rollei Retro film in this case, and im trying to 'get it out' from the wonderful X10, so be it .. I'd rather hear that my curve is too steep, than who on Earth do you think you are to use B&W when there is color

max m metz said:

I love b&w when its done well, these certainly are very adept so qualify well within that class.

Perhaps the limiting of the visual senses by taking away one aspect, in this case colour, affords the viewer a new perspective as an outsider. The time reference is also loosened, placing the frame somewhere in the history of b&w photography - giving further reinforcement to notions of intimate observer.

Altering the viewer perspective is very powerful, very intimate and gives rise to the possibility for expression of insights, ideas and beliefs.

The arts and advertising, if that distinction exists, use techniques such as this to deliver strong messages to other people sometimes so effectively that the receiver believes that notions put are their own.

In sociology this is known as ideological hegemony, the ability of one group of people to propagate an idea to others in such a fashion that they believe it is their own.

Click to expand...

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DC Alford, Mohoyoho, thanks ..
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I now recall that i attempted to explain it (to myself i guess) sometime ago - the place for B&W in photography when there's so much color ..

Im pasting the link to it below, with the warning that it is simply a hypothesis, which however, i largely subscribe to still today, and no, i will not shoot color outside in top sun, because the color for me distracts in such conditions much too often, brings visual and internal chaos into things and thus damages the result as i see it

http://heartofthetwilight.blogspot.com/2011/07/case-for-b.html

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Good for you Cloudy Bay, its easy to admire your conviction and your expression.

One of the huge benefits of civilized life is being the afforded the luxury to shed the chains of hunter gatherer and begin to explore more abstract matters. Inevitably that leads us to explore our own feelings and those of others; the resultant yearning to communicate our findings embraces some and alienates others.

Throughout history, its the alienated that have shouted "burn the witch", "flame the black and white photographer" - all be it with varying skill sets. For some, collecting the technical information and rule sets of various disciplines is fore filling enough, a small number within that group seek to eradicate anyone deviating from that path, sometimes collectively with religious verve and inquisition.

History however has not treated these book burners kindly, preferring instead to herald the souls like yourself, those who leave behind deep insights into their lives as a part of the ongoing human footprint.

Accordingly I would rather see one good photographic set from you, Argie, Dan, Mohoyoho or the many other creative souls on here than read one hundred well written technical reviews.

Thanks again Max ..

You went beyond the intentions of this post, but i cannot agree more with you, and this agreement - is not because of me under attack here per se. I've been a black ship with my photography and art (oil) with 3 out 10 loving it and the 7 asking - why not something else .. Same is with my house in fact, which is largely dark and empty inside, the overall architecture and design hugely influenced by the great John Lautner and his visions of space and light

I will post few favs again one day soon, for people like you, and they might be .. shock and horror .. in color

;-)

Small correction from my original reply :

When you photograph people in color, you photograph their clothes. But when you photograph people in B&W, you photograph their souls!

• Ted Grant

And not D.Lange, or D.Arbus. But so much .. Sally Mann, who could have used color, for portrait and non-portrait, yet she did not - and that is where leaving the great technique for the ordinary leads to a great image of the (believably) extraordinary ..

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CloudyBay43 said:

For obvious reasons i decided to ignore sunshine_boy's reply which i perceived much more as a personal attack than a constructive photo critique. I largely agree with Argie, just that Argie could consider that there IS drama for me in these images ..

Click to expand...

I am surprised and sorry you are considering my comments as personal . I assure you they are NOT. I have never made a personal attack on anybody and there was no reason to pick you as the first...

Strong criticism of some issue, yes, but certainly nothing to do with the person. In this case it was B&W for All daylight images. Yes, I feel just as strongly against removing the color from images unless you intend to portray something special, something that gets hidden or lessened by color. If I can't see that 'something' in the photo, naturally I ask.

The artist (you in this case) can either explain or just vaguely describe or utilize various theories/notions/beliefs/ideas etc and that is the artist's prerogative. Or he/she can say "Sorry, that's the way I see/like things". End of story. Nothing personal, no offense given or taken...

Again, before I get any generalized comments about B&W I repeat that I appreciate and LIKE B&W in images where B&W brings out a special feeling or message. If there is no special thing reaching me, then I ask. If I get a good answer then maybe I learn something. If not, I am no worse off than I was before. NOTHING PERSONAL!...

I will also add that I believe B&W is often used out of context or just following a trend or a misconception of oldie-woldie purity, nostalgia etc which obviously resides only in the eye of the beholder. No right or wrong, everybody is equally entitled to their opinion. Nice to get some explanations, if not, so be it...

--
Best Regards
Sunshine

ps If you see someone without a smile on, give him one of yours...

When i said horses for courses in my original reply, i meant exactly this "Sorry, that's the way I see/like things". Obviously i have not explained myself well enough ..

But you insisted on me explaining 'my soul and inner motivations about things', which i was not and am not prepared to do, and is very stupid of me if i do here .

So, it's all fine .. Watch out for my next post .. Color only, the way i like it when i like it in color

Sunshine_boy said:

CloudyBay43 said:

For obvious reasons i decided to ignore sunshine_boy's reply which i perceived much more as a personal attack than a constructive photo critique. I largely agree with Argie, just that Argie could consider that there IS drama for me in these images ..

Click to expand...

I am surprised and sorry you are considering my comments as personal . I assure you they are NOT. I have never made a personal attack on anybody and there was no reason to pick you as the first...

Strong criticism of some issue, yes, but certainly nothing to do with the person. In this case it was B&W for All daylight images. Yes, I feel just as strongly against removing the color from images unless you intend to portray something special, something that gets hidden or lessened by color. If I can't see that 'something' in the photo, naturally I ask.

The artist (you in this case) can either explain or just vaguely describe or utilize various theories/notions/beliefs/ideas etc and that is the artist's prerogative. Or he/she can say "Sorry, that's the way I see/like things". End of story. Nothing personal, no offense given or taken...

Again, before I get any generalized comments about B&W I repeat that I appreciate and LIKE B&W in images where B&W brings out a special feeling or message. If there is no special thing reaching me, then I ask. If I get a good answer then maybe I learn something. If not, I am no worse off than I was before. NOTHING PERSONAL!...

I will also add that I believe B&W is often used out of context or just following a trend or a misconception of oldie-woldie purity, nostalgia etc which obviously resides only in the eye of the beholder. No right or wrong, everybody is equally entitled to their opinion. Nice to get some explanations, if not, so be it...

--
Best Regards
Sunshine

ps If you see someone without a smile on, give him one of yours...

Click to expand...

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heartofthetwilight.blogspot.com

CloudyBay43 said:

When i said horses for courses in my original reply, i meant exactly this "Sorry, that's the way I see/like things". Obviously i have not explained myself well enough ..

But you insisted on me explaining 'my soul and inner motivations about things', which i was not and am not prepared to do, and is very stupid of me if i do here .

Click to expand...

I've just come back from a very nice fish tavern by the sea (with the family). I kept looking at the whole setting, with kids playing on the green outside and boats with white sails sailing across the horizon. A mixture of magical colors for everybody to enjoy. I thought I would be ungrateful to God and Nature if I could remove those colors...

Then I saw a fisherman sitting in his boat sorting out his nets in some baskets. He looked roughed up and tired. I thought, this is a scene I would definitely have in B&W because colors indeed don't matter in projecting the day-to-day toil of someone while others are enjoying themselves...

So, 'Horses for Courses' for me is Color or B&W where appropriate. Not all horses for the same course and not the same horse for all courses...

CloudyBay43 said:

So, it's all fine .. Watch out for my next post .. Color only, the way i like it when i like it in color

Click to expand...

Fair enough, will do...

Yes, i agree, your context reading is right, and i even put it myself in this context .. i could have conveyed better and firmly stated that this is how i see the scene and period.

Sunshine_boy said:

CloudyBay43 said:

When i said horses for courses in my original reply, i meant exactly this "Sorry, that's the way I see/like things". Obviously i have not explained myself well enough ..

But you insisted on me explaining 'my soul and inner motivations about things', which i was not and am not prepared to do, and is very stupid of me if i do here .

Click to expand...

I've just come back from a very nice fish tavern by the sea (with the family). I kept looking at the whole setting, with kids playing on the green outside and boats with white sails sailing across the horizon. A mixture of magical colors for everybody to enjoy. I thought I would be ungrateful to God and Nature if I could remove those colors...

Then I saw a fisherman sitting in his boat sorting out his nets in some baskets. He looked roughed up and tired. I thought, this is a scene I would definitely have in B&W because colors indeed don't matter in projecting the day-to-day toil of someone while others are enjoying themselves...

So, 'Horses for Courses' for me is Color or B&W where appropriate. Not all horses for the same course and not the same horse for all courses...

Sunshine_boy said:

So, it's all fine .. Watch out for my next post .. Color only, the way i like it when i like it in color

Click to expand...

Fair enough, will do...

Click to expand...

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It was quite gratifying to read an extensive thread, loaded with various opposing facets on the subject and without personal attacks.

Kudos to the various participants.

George
Bedford, TX