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Joe Federer said:
Make your clients happy, work on your skills, never stop trying to exceed what you did last time. That's about the only rules you're going to get... and they haven't changed.
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Sorry...if that was the 'secret to success' then most of the 'old photogs' wouldn't be having issues.

You can have the hardware store in town, or pharmacy or anything else and when walmart moves in you're in trouble no matter what.

While I do know some hardware stores still doing well I'd say 90% of what I knew as a kid (or even 20 years ago) have vanished. New competition does change things.

One can change to 'meet' the competition...maybe. But you have to give consumers what they want. Most (in the hardware biz) seem to want low price over service or selection - so walmart wins as Mom&PopHardware cannot compete on price and not enough customers are left to keep them in business.

If, as it seems, 50% or more of photography customers are willing to accept lesser quality images as long as it comes with a lower price, then what must be done to compete with that? Lowering quality is easy (LOL) but lowering price may not be so easy to do. If you can find enough customers wanting quality and service at the higher price you stay in business...if not, you won't.

Now will this require more marketing? Different marketing? Probably. More marketing costs more money... at some point the scales may tip in favor of the same marketing and a lower price point. Different marketing is indeed part of what's going on- FB, twitter, etc.

Used to be easier to 'stand out' from the crowd - if you're one in 5 photogs. If you're one in 20 or 30 it's a lot lot harder to be 'different' as that's what most of them are trying to do as well.

Consumers have more choice than ever. Used to be 3 or 4 channels on TV, now there are 200. Total audience hasn't changed...just how many that watch each channel has dropped. Fewer viewers, lower ad rates, less money...less money fewer new programs so fewer viewers...a downward spiral for sure. Now you have 200 channels 'nothing on' - well, nothing new.
 
financial success never has been and never will be about who has the best product. You keep beating that horse and it still a dead one.

The biggest, most successful photographer in my county is also widely recognized as the worst in every way - creatively, customer service, product selection, he actually is against education ( his former employees have told me). I've yet to hear a good word about him from anyone. I do hear good things about other photographers.

If any of what you say is true then he should long be gone, and certainly not the big dawg (in every category he competes in no less - not just one).

--
Before everything else, getting ready is the secret of success. -Henry Ford
 
Craig said:
NO thanks I don't need a bunch of people here giving their opinions on my site.

I still believe a lot of work is going to young women now.. thats all the blah blah online
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Women are the majority of the population, they should get the majority of the work!
--
Charlie
 
PenguinPhotoCo said:
financial success never has been and never will be about who has the best product. You keep beating that horse and it still a dead one.
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Yeah, the I-Phone proves that!

but the mystique Apple has generated around it makes it a run away best seller.
This in the face of tremendous, even overwhelming, competition.
So We have several issues to deal with.

Competition. it's out there and only getting more intense. It is too easy to put a modest amount of money into a camera and image processing system and go into "busienss". There are literally hundreds of websites promoting that Idea.
That easy entrance to the market makes for a saturation effect very quickly.

In other words, these waters are over fished . You can't catch a fish that is already in somebody else's net.

The devaluation of Professional Photography.

Several factors have come to this. The change in equipment, the drop in price of that equipment, and an attitude amongst the public that "photography is "easy" why should I pay a lot of money for it?"

Add in the ubiquity of cameras; and the instant gratification provided by social networks with their various styling effects... "Why do I need a "photographer"? I have a celphone and "instagram".
PenguinPhotoCo said:
The biggest, most successful photographer in my county is also widely recognized as the worst in every way - creatively, customer service, product selection, he actually is against education ( his former employees have told me). I've yet to hear a good word about him from anyone. I do hear good things about other photographers.
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Yeah but what do his customers say?
He must be doing something nobody else does.
PenguinPhotoCo said:
If any of what you say is true then he should long be gone, and certainly not the big dawg (in every category he competes in no less - not just one).
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Unless he knows how to make his service more valuble than the next guy.
PenguinPhotoCo said:
--
Before everything else, getting ready is the secret of success. -Henry Ford
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--
Photons by the bag.
Gravitons no longer shipped outside US or Canada
-----.....------

if I mock you, it may be well deserved.
 
He does a lot of schools and sports leagues - and no, I don't know what he does to get them or keep them. I've been told he's very much 'in your face' until you concede to him. Annoying (hence the bad 'reviews') but effective.

Most don't like walmarts' methods of getting low low prices, yet more people shop there than anyplace else.

--
Before everything else, getting ready is the secret of success. -Henry Ford
 
Yeah. There are far more women around here now in the field. A large local park has maybe 2-3 every weekend doing outdoor portraits out there. I've sat and watched them while T ate my lunch and some will do their client's makeup and hair too so that is a plus for them. Some have gotten into divorce parties and "No men allowed." Some may be housewives who just do it for extra side income and can do it very cheap too. To each there own.

Almost all big-box stores have female photographers. Walmart and Target comes to mind. They handle kids better and I wouldn't want that gig at all.

Most work is referral that I see. Even in my web searches, sometimes Google will not show my town, but it will show others hundreds of miles away who probably pay Google for their listing even though it is in another state. Honestly, it ain't that good of a local phonebook and some info is very old and the ones they list aren't even around anymore.

Around here, I cannot think of any who don't also have some other business to supplement their photo gig. Some own apartments, other breadwinner around, into realty and housing sales, retired with a pension, professors with a lot of off time, etc. Some are into the "teaching" aspect too like Photoshop lessons at home, camera operation for newbies, etc. Almost all with a storefront are closed during the week and only open for a studio shoot gigs (You get their cellphone and they run down and open up).

It has changed a bit.

Mack
 
Hi Joe

I'm on that dark side of the fence where you gotta do all it takes to survive (and it still ain't cutting it).

Each passing day, I loose my love for professional photography.

I mean, photography, the art itself, I still love from all my heart.

But making a living out of photography is hard, and the joy fades away after each passing day.

But hey, I didn't start this post to say all that sad words.

I just wanted to say your work is gorgeous. OMG

Simply a work of art. Beautifully crafted art.

A work of a master to admire.

Cheers!

--
Marcio Napoli
 
marcio_napoli said:
Hi Joe

I'm on that dark side of the fence where you gotta do all it takes to survive (and it still ain't cutting it).

Each passing day, I loose my love for professional photography.

I mean, photography, the art itself, I still love from all my heart.

But making a living out of photography is hard, and the joy fades away after each passing day.
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I will agree it's really, really hard. After starting the biz about 5 years ago now, the hard parts are not what I thought they would be... and the challenges (to keep the passion to create fresh and new every time) are not where I expected they would be. I did NOT think that that hard part would be finding the creative energy to try to find a 'new' angle on a speech in the middle of August (rather than just shooting what you know works and sitting down to finish your salad). ... or, more close to home, I didn't realize how little I actually knew, and how thick my skin would have to get in order to learn.

I've certainly learned a lot about life and the world... and about myself most of all. But I wouldn't take any of it back... it's been a great ride.

Take some time and purposely break your mould... paid or not doesn't really matter. Do something that breaks you out of your routine. I've found 'routine' is the passion killer -- not clients, not deadlines, not long hours or bad conditions -- simply letting routine grind your creative energy into dust. Fight routine and all the rest will follow.
marcio_napoli said:
But hey, I didn't start this post to say all that sad words.

I just wanted to say your work is gorgeous. OMG

Simply a work of art. Beautifully crafted art.

A work of a master to admire.

Cheers!

--
Marcio Napoli
Click to expand...
Hey, thanks. That really means a lot to me to have one of my peers say that. Truly, thank you for the kind words.

JOE FEDERER
Websites:
http://www.joefederer.com
http://www.federerphotography.com/blog
http://www.theprofessionalphotographyforum.com/
 
lm 6f 3in, too tall to be a convincing transvestite photographer.
 
A few weeks ago, I was preparing a shoot for a client who had requested a specific park location. It was not one of my usual shooting places, so I called to see if a permit was required. It was. $100 for a full year. I informed the couple and they agreed to pick up the tab for it since the spot was really special to them and I was not likely to shoot there again.

While there, I saw at LEAST three other sessions going on. Based [solely] on appearance and their entry-level gear, I guessed that they were part-time "professionals" (all young women), very inexperienced but probably very well networked. Skill was entirely optional, and quality was likely questionable. I saw a least two signs indicating that permits were required for professional photography.

How many of these young newcomers to YOU think actually had permits? Or insurance? Or paid taxes on the income? Or had backup gear? Or had any training? It's one thing for a photographer to never get past P mode on their camera. It's another when they work in the industry for "free". I could charge a lot less if I paid no taxes, too.
GMack said:
Yeah. There are far more women around here now in the field. A large local park has maybe 2-3 every weekend doing outdoor portraits out there. I've sat and watched them while T ate my lunch and some will do their client's makeup and hair too so that is a plus for them. Some have gotten into divorce parties and "No men allowed." Some may be housewives who just do it for extra side income and can do it very cheap too. To each there own.

Almost all big-box stores have female photographers. Walmart and Target comes to mind. They handle kids better and I wouldn't want that gig at all.

Most work is referral that I see. Even in my web searches, sometimes Google will not show my town, but it will show others hundreds of miles away who probably pay Google for their listing even though it is in another state. Honestly, it ain't that good of a local phonebook and some info is very old and the ones they list aren't even around anymore.

Around here, I cannot think of any who don't also have some other business to supplement their photo gig. Some own apartments, other breadwinner around, into realty and housing sales, retired with a pension, professors with a lot of off time, etc. Some are into the "teaching" aspect too like Photoshop lessons at home, camera operation for newbies, etc. Almost all with a storefront are closed during the week and only open for a studio shoot gigs (You get their cellphone and they run down and open up).

It has changed a bit.

Mack
Click to expand...
 
PenguinPhotoCo said:
Joe Federer said:
Make your clients happy, work on your skills, never stop trying to exceed what you did last time. That's about the only rules you're going to get... and they haven't changed.
Click to expand...
Sorry...if that was the 'secret to success' then most of the 'old photogs' wouldn't be having issues.
Click to expand...
More typical BS. The problem is that so many of the 'old photogs' (your words, not mine) are doing exactly what they've always done as if nothing has changed. Things have changed and we, as businesses, need to change to. How/what to change will depend on the photographer, the market, the clientele, etc., but change is a necessity. You want specific answers about what to change but no one can give that to you because they don't live where you live, know how you market, and know who you want to market to, among other things. Specifics without enough information are impossible.
Michael Thomas Mitchell said:
How many of these young newcomers to YOU think actually had permits? Or insurance? Or paid taxes on the income? Or had backup gear? Or had any training? It's one thing for a photographer to never get past P mode on their camera. It's another when they work in the industry for "free". I could charge a lot less if I paid no taxes, too.
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I agree, they aren't operating legally and, as such, don't deserve what business they do get. So why not take their photo, get their names, and report them? This isn't hypothetical, I'm actually asking why you haven't done so.
 
Michael Thomas Mitchell said:
How many of these young newcomers to YOU think actually had permits? Or insurance? Or paid taxes on the income? Or had backup gear? Or had any training? It's one thing for a photographer to never get past P mode on their camera. It's another when they work in the industry for "free". I could charge a lot less if I paid no taxes, too.
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I agree 110%.

I've talked to a number of photogs who say "I have all the work I want (need, can handle) and I don't even need to advertise!" Makes this profession seem like a dream, huh?

Then you find out their 'successful business' generates $10k or less in sales for a whole year. I know they don't do the accounting to actually know how much their expenses truly are and I bet they never do the math to see what they're making per hour. This is why I often call them 'charitable photographers' - if you're not making a profit then you are a non-profit - a charity. I know it pizzes them off, but i just want them to think about what they're actually doing.

Success is profit . Be legit, cover all your expenses (gear, utilities, that tax break you get for a home office too) and pay your self for every hour you work - $10-15 an hour minium - and then whatever is left over after taxes are paid is profit. No profit means you are a business failure or a charity...pick one. Successful business is not one of the options.

--
Before everything else, getting ready is the secret of success. -Henry Ford
 
Biggs23 said:
More typical BS. The problem is that so many of the 'old photogs' (your words, not mine) are doing exactly what they've always done as if nothing has changed. Things have changed and we, as businesses, need to change to. How/what to change will depend on the photographer, the market, the clientele, etc., but change is a necessity. You want specific answers about what to change but no one can give that to you because they don't live where you live, know how you market, and know who you want to market to, among other things. Specifics without enough information are impossible.
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Yes and no. I've seen many change/adapt and it's not working. Used to be 5 photogs in town, now there are 30. Used to be folks had to hire a pro (one of the 5) and now many pics they can do themselves or have a friend 'with a nice camera' do. Yes, it's a change, but you can't adapt successfully to 50% of folks not buying any professional photography anymore. When Walmart moves in many successful businesses close...there is nothing they can do.

And I feel much of professional photography is in the same situation - fewer customers for any pro photography and 5 times the competition for what's left.

Is 'success' still possible? Yes...but not at the level it was. So you make $50k a year, great. I know photogs that made triple that 20 years ago. The trend is such that in another 10 years we might make $20k a year in this profession.

I am hopeful that I will be a survivor, but as you said it's not the same as it was - you need to be better in every way and lucky too I think.
Biggs23 said:
I agree, they aren't operating legally and, as such, don't deserve what business they do get. So why not take their photo, get their names, and report them? This isn't hypothetical, I'm actually asking why you haven't done so.
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Everyone wants 'fairness' and nobody wants to be a 'snitch'. Apathy rules.

--
Before everything else, getting ready is the secret of success. -Henry Ford
 
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