Attitude towards street photography in the Netherlands?

Does anyone living in the netherlands have any experience with street photography, and how people react? I'm thinking of going to an antique market in Haarlem this saturday and try to get some nice candid shots. This'll be my first real street photography session.

I'll be taking a GH2 with panny 25mm f/1.4. To my knowledge, such a camera isn't known to be an enthusiast's camera to non-photographers so it should be somewhat discrete without being completely hidden. (It kinda looks like a bridge camera...)

I think the law allows street photography here in the netherlands but I wouldn't be surprised to still get opposition. If that happens then I'll probably just obey their wishes and delete the photo.

Here's my first and only street photo I've taken so far. Yes, the subject is a bit far away.... I had to run up to him without crunching the snow too loudly to get the shot...

i lived in the nl for a while, and made a lot of photos on the streets there. my experience was that it was often a contentious activity--ordinary people often felt that you were doing something bad, sometimes got angry--but on the other hand were generally very happy to interact with you and usually could be talked to, and when they were in on the joke were often quite exhibitionist. using a compact camera certainly won't hurt, though most still depends on your attitude and demeanor.

i was told by a policeman there once that i must not take photos of a man who was performing on the street--he (the policeman) got very belligerent and threatened to arrest me. i don't think the law was technically on his side, but it is possible that once he told me not to take photographs, that would be considered enforceable.

there are actually quite a large number of dutch photographers on these forums, and i also met many of them out on the streets in amsterdam. it is probably more frequently considered a 'serious' sort of pursuit than it is in the usa, but conversely, fewer people overall seem to take cameras everywhere there, compared to the usa where it is now commonplace in most cities for a significant proportion of the people you see on the street to be carrying a camera. in general, people in the usa are probably less hostile to street photography than people in the nl, but not as friendly towards it as people in japan or indonesia, nor again are dutch as hostile to photographers as the korean public. it's always a balancing game.

here are a couple of shots from the nl i have handy:









































good luck, enjoy yourself, and don't try to hide--just be open and friendly, it usually works out. oh, and try to get around to the front side of people...

Just as I feared, it really is more frowned upon than it is in places like japan and even the USA.

And yes, the photo I posted above isn't that good but it shows my reluctance to get any closer or in front of the subject.

take a look here what they do:

http://www.flickr.com/search/show/?q=%22street+photography%22+%2BHolland+%2BNetherlands+-nature&s=int&ss=2

one of the most prolific SP'ers in NL is Akbar Simonse from Hague, well
known all over the world for his collection of street art documentaries;
and Peter Dumont from Haarlem used to run weekly WSP thread on DPR
for many years - am quite sure they will be glad to tell you more should
you contact them by e-mail; look them up in any case, it will be pretty
instructional as European school of SP does differ from that over Atlantic

Akbar's:
http://www.flickr.com/search/show/?q=Akbar+Simonse&s=int&ss=2
http://www.flickr.com/search/show/?q=%22Simeon+Barkas%22&s=int&ss=2
http://www.flickr.com/search/show/?q=%22Akbar+Sim%22&s=int&ss=2

jpr2
--
~
street candids (non-interactive):
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/qmusaget/sets/72157609618638319/
music and dance:
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/qmusaget/sets/72157600341265280/
B&W:
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/qmusaget/sets/72157623306407882/
wildlife & macro:
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/qmusaget/sets/72157600341377106/
interactive street:
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/qmusaget/sets/72157623181919323/

Comments and critique are always welcome!
~

Zoeff said:

Just as I feared, it really is more frowned upon than it is in places like japan and even the USA.

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yes, it is indeed more frowned upon by the general public, even as it is perhaps more frequently practiced at a high level, as i indicated in my previous post.

Zoeff said:

And yes, the photo I posted above isn't that good but it shows my reluctance to get any closer or in front of the subject.

Click to expand...

well, it sounds like you are interested in trying new approaches, which is half the battle. one advantage to shooting in the nl or for that matter much of europe is the sheer density of activity on most streets there--the streets tend to be physically smaller, and people tend to live more comfortably on the street, as compared to the us (for arbitrary example). so even if people are sometimes prickly, there are more opportunities to try and take advantage of.

one thing though, and if you are dutch then probably you already know--if it is snowy, people in the netherlands seem to have no compunctions whatsoever about beaning strangers with snowballs, perhaps especially strangers with cameras. i find it kind of refreshing, actually, but keep an eye cocked if you don't want to risk your camera getting wet.

jpr2 said:

jpr2 said:

And yes, the photo I posted above isn't that good but it shows my reluctance to get any closer or in front of the subject.

Click to expand...

well, it sounds like you are interested in trying new approaches, which is half the battle. one advantage to shooting in the nl or for that matter much of europe is the sheer density of activity on most streets there--the streets tend to be physically smaller, and people tend to live more comfortably on the street, as compared to the us (for arbitrary example). so even if people are sometimes prickly, there are more opportunities to try and take advantage of.

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Definitely.

jpr2 said:

one thing though, and if you are dutch then probably you already know--if it is snowy, people in the netherlands seem to have no compunctions whatsoever about beaning strangers with snowballs, perhaps especially strangers with cameras. i find it kind of refreshing, actually, but keep an eye cocked if you don't want to risk your camera getting wet.

Click to expand...

Very true, even without holding a camera in my hands I always look out for groups of kids whenever there's snow around.

jpr2 said:

take a look here what they do:

http://www.flickr.com/search/show/?q=%22street+photography%22+%2BHolland+%2BNetherlands+-nature&s=int&ss=2

one of the most prolific SP'ers in NL is Akbar Simonse from Hague, well
known all over the world for his collection of street art documentaries;
and Peter Dumont from Haarlem used to run weekly WSP thread on DPR
for many years - am quite sure they will be glad to tell you more should
you contact them by e-mail; look them up in any case, it will be pretty
instructional as European school of SP does differ from that over Atlantic

Akbar's:
http://www.flickr.com/search/show/?q=Akbar+Simonse&s=int&ss=2
http://www.flickr.com/search/show/?q=%22Simeon+Barkas%22&s=int&ss=2
http://www.flickr.com/search/show/?q=%22Akbar+Sim%22&s=int&ss=2

jpr2

Click to expand...

Interesting to see a veteran SP on these forums living in the same city.

If you expect people to be hostile, they will be.
If you expect them to be friendly, they will be.
If you don't trust yourself, people will consider you untrustworthy.

You have to understand your calling and why you are there, that you are practicing your art, which itself is part of the swirling life of the street, its quintessence even.

You have to know that you are the most trustworthy person on the street, that you respect the dignity of each and every person you shoot, even if you show their depravity or poverty, or embarrassing situations. My best shot today was of an attractive woman in a wheelchair. I could have been self conscious about the shot, she could have seemed defensive or annoyed, but we cooperated impassively in the eternal dance of art.

I only know the original Harlem here in NYC, but P Dumont has so many photos from the Dutch copy of people being warm and friendly that we've joked about Dutch people being trained in school in performing for S photographers. Be friendly. You are doing nothing wrong.

If the Dutch people give you a hard time, come here to NYC. All the prettiest and most talented Europeans seem to hang in my neighborhood. Just yesterday I learned that my wife is what the French call an archicube, which is scholastic argot for pretty hot stuff.
--
Frank

All photos shot in downtown Manhattan unless otherwise noted.
Thanks in advance for the kindness of your comments or critiques.

xtoph said:

i lived in the nl for a while, and made a lot of photos on the streets there. my

Click to expand...

xtoph said:

Click to expand...

Chris,

You took some good shots in NL. This one in particular is a pleasure to see again. It captures such a powerful moment.
--
Frank

All photos shot in downtown Manhattan unless otherwise noted.
Thanks in advance for the kindness of your comments or critiques.

fad said:

If you expect people to be hostile, they will be.
If you expect them to be friendly, they will be.
If you don't trust yourself, people will consider you untrustworthy.

You have to understand your calling and why you are there, that you are practicing your art, which itself is part of the swirling life of the street, its quintessence even.

You have to know that you are the most trustworthy person on the street, that you respect the dignity of each and every person you shoot, even if you show their depravity or poverty, or embarrassing situations. My best shot today was of an attractive woman in a wheelchair. I could have been self conscious about the shot, she could have seemed defensive or annoyed, but we cooperated impassively in the eternal dance of art.

I only know the original Harlem here in NYC, but P Dumont has so many photos from the Dutch copy of people being warm and friendly that we've joked about Dutch people being trained in school in performing for S photographers. Be friendly. You are doing nothing wrong.

If the Dutch people give you a hard time, come here to NYC. All the prettiest and most talented Europeans seem to hang in my neighborhood. Just yesterday I learned that my wife is what the French call an archicube, which is scholastic argot for pretty hot stuff.

Click to expand...

Honestly, I can totally see this philosophy working in Harlem but not in Haarlem. People there seem to be much more expressive than here in europe. To me it looks like people over here simply walk from building A to building B with a street in between while over there people 'know' that they are walking in a community that they live in. Of course, there are exceptions as the photographs taken by P Dumont and others prove - I've seen some myself where in the early morning hours I was strolling in a park where I would greet the occasional passerby and be greeted back with a smile. But something like that wouldn't happen as easily when you're in a busy narrow street in the city center.

If it doesn't work out then I'll just try some documentary style photography on the streets instead or something... In fact I probably will squeeze some in this saturday anyway since it's technically an event.

Oh and one extra point of detail - Haarlem is the original. Harlem (and NY state in general) was set up by the dutch as a dutch colony with New Amsterdam being nearby, much like how Haarlem and Amsterdam are close together connected by a canal.

to tell the truth what you say poses a clear puzzle - I could perhaps
not find a friendlier place to do some SP than Leiden, Delft, Utrecht,
or A'dam (or to tell the truth near the Sint-Bavokerk and those tiny
shops of Grote Markt in Haarlem as well ),

perhaps the easiest for you would be to pop into a train to A'dam
to cut your SP wings there, and then you'll appreciate how easy
and uncluttered can be your SP frames back in Haarlem??? (just
an idea to try out),

jpr2
--
~
street candids (non-interactive):
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/qmusaget/sets/72157609618638319/
music and dance:
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/qmusaget/sets/72157600341265280/
B&W:
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/qmusaget/sets/72157623306407882/
wildlife & macro:
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/qmusaget/sets/72157600341377106/
interactive street:
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/qmusaget/sets/72157623181919323/

Comments and critique are always welcome!
~

Maybe it's the grass is greener on the other side sort of thing...

Who knows. Anyway, if I have fun on saturday then you'll hear from me.

Dutch photo posted today (Al Bobkin is an exceptional photographer)

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1052&thread=41058004&page=7
--
Frank

All photos shot in downtown Manhattan unless otherwise noted.
Thanks in advance for the kindness of your comments or critiques.

xtoph said:

i was told by a policeman there once that i must not take photos of a man who was performing on the street--he (the policeman) got very belligerent and threatened to arrest me. i don't think the law was technically on his side, but it is possible that once he told me not to take photographs, that would be considered enforceable.

Click to expand...

Not enforceable at all. The police are there to enforce existing laws, not invent new ones. Sadly they can arrest (if they are stupid) you but if they do they will end up on the wrong end of a lawsuit for wrongful arrest.

--
Dan
-

I love my girlfriend, my dog and my canon 7d - even though none of them ever do what I tell them

I am learning photo graphee - see the results at http://www.danmarchant.com

i am not completely sure whether you are saying that the policeman couldn't have arrested me for disregarding his direction to me, or if you are simply stating a general principle of justice.

i did consult with other nederlanders, of course, out of curiosity after that encounter, and i did not get a definitive answer, though most thought that he was outside of his authority.

anyway, i mainly recounted that story to address the op's question about attitudes related to street photography in the nl. there's no question that many of the general public there are under the powerful impression that you can't take their picture without their prior consent; many more than are under that (clearly legally incorrect) impression in the usa. sometimes arguing the nuances of the law isn't the highest priority.

xtoph said:

i am not completely sure whether you are saying that the policeman couldn't have arrested me for disregarding his direction to me, or if you are simply stating a general principle of justice.

i did consult with other nederlanders, of course, out of curiosity after that encounter, and i did not get a definitive answer, though most thought that he was outside of his authority.

Click to expand...

As a practical matter, it makes sense to give deference to a policeman in a this circumstance.

In my home city, I can better gauge who I am dealing with, and I can quote the name of the deputy police commissioner who issued a directive against harassing photographers and drop enough legal terms to make a professionally trained policeman recalculate his odds. I know whether I am meeting an undercover detective, a cop on the beat, a cop directing traffic, a Parks Department cop, a transit cop and calibrate how I deal with each of them. But in a foreign country, even if one knows it well, its harder to calculate the effects of escalating the confrontation.

--
Frank

All photos shot in downtown Manhattan unless otherwise noted.
Thanks in advance for the kindness of your comments or critiques.

Critique & Criticism please.

Directly saved to 80% JPEGs without any PP in LR. No further comments, just photo's.

















































Oh and, almost bought this....





Note the manual adapter that enables manual exposure setting.

xtoph said:

i am not completely sure whether you are saying that the policeman couldn't have arrested me for disregarding his direction to me, or if you are simply stating a general principle of justice.

Click to expand...

Yes, I am saying he could not (legally) have arrested you. The police are only allowed to arrest you for committing a crime. Photography is not a crime and therefore you can't be arrested for it.

Obviously if you responded with abuse or violence then you have committed a public order offence and they could arrest you for that. However, if you are calm and polite and simply point out that you have not committed any offence and are completely within the law/your rights to continue, then they can't arrest you. If they do so you can sue them for wrongful arrest.

Obviously if a policeman asked you to stop shooting and move for a legitimate reason (need to clear the way for a parade or fear that a nearby burning vehicle will explode) then you should move and are then free to continue shooting.

--
Dan
-

I love my girlfriend, my dog and my canon 7d - even though none of them ever do what I tell them

I am learning photo graphee - see the results at http://www.danmarchant.com

i am sorry, dan, but it is still unclear to me if you are talking about policemen in general or the specific circumstances in the netherlands. i am not at all sure that you are correct as a matter of legal technicality in this particular case--are you familiar with netherlands law?

--
Frank

All photos shot in downtown Manhattan unless otherwise noted.
Thanks in advance for the kindness of your comments or critiques.

Thanks nt!