r u making $ with your camera?

I'm sure it's not the norm, but it has happened in different ways on several occasions. I guess it's somewhat of a bad or otherwise cynical out look but when you are trying to keep food on the family table and at the same time do something you love one can get a bit protective. I do understand the concept of free enterprise. I just don't like hacks that really don't give a darn about the profession as a whole and only want to try an make an easy buck.

Zen000 said:

Darrel said:

We were doing an equestrian event a while back, shooting for
clients, handing out cards, etc. Some $#$% with a point-n-shoot
trying to recoup his $500 walked around behind us offering prints
for almost nothing knowing that we were there trying to do
business. Guess he was trying to raise money for a new neck strap
or something. We spend a lot of time at events networking, making
our name known, forming relationships for other events, etc.
Armatures trying to make their $500 back on their new toy in some
cases really mess it up for those that are trying to make a living
at it.

Zen000 said:

Aslo, thanks to everyone with all your responces, its really
apreciated! & very interesting.

Darrel said:

Bill Grove said:

If there is an area of photography that you really enjoy you can
make some money part time with it. I really youth sports
photography, I have a football and wrestling son and a softball,
soccer, basketball daughter. I helped justify the cost of new
camera equipment by taking a few extra sports photos of kids and
sell them for a resonable price. This is an area that there may or
may not be someone (read pro) doing in your area. I am not trying
to step on toes or put a full-time photographer out of business. I
have only looked at sports and clubs or leagues were there is no
one doing it. Most money in youth sports is made in the team photo
business which to me would be just another job. I prefer the
action photo side of things as it is a much greater challenge and
something that most parents can't do themselves. My business is
setup as a legitimate business, I pay sales tax and income tax. I
haven't paid for my D100 and lenses yet but I am getting pretty
close. My goal is to simply cover the cost of new equipment that I
want to buy. A second goal is to get my kids interested and try to
do some of the photography themselves and also learn about small
business.

You can take a look at my website at http://www.mvpshots.com

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although your inital responce annoyed me! For the record i do see where your comming from.

Guys, lets be a little more open minded. imagin if you were making your living, oh i dont know...cleaning houses(&this was your chosen profession) while your giving an estimet someone walkes in right behind you & lo balls you because he has no overhead... is not in that proffesion but could use the $$ to go on vacation. One man is relying on the incom for his livelyhood the other wants it to go on vacation (pay for his gear).

i know welcom to the usa or free enterprise of the bus of bus. But--look inside yourself & ask some questions regarding-ethics-compassion-fairness....

Darrel said:

Peter Dove said:

Stop complaining and get so good that you dont need to worry about
us amateurs.

Or is being professional mean you look down your nose at others?

Peter

Darrel said:

James Riley said:

Darrel said:

Why is it that people always feel that they have to try and recoup
their money on photography equipment? It's a hobby just like
anything else. I ride motorcycles but I didn't start a motorcycle
business to recoup the expense of my new bike.

Click to expand...

If somebody were to ask you to run errands for them on your bike,
eventually you would want to charge something, wouldn't you?

--
JR

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If your product is superior to the wanna be then you shouldn't have any problems.....but if his is close then, well.....that is competition regardless of where it comes from. Happens in all aspects of life my friend......but if your work is better.... you will win out and be in it for years to come!
--
Ken

Thanks for your understanding. You understand my point. Let me also say that I have no problem in general with others wanting to seriously get into the business full or part time and I have always been willing to share information with them. I just like to compete on a level playing field and let the images and customer service speak for themselves.

Zen000 said:

Darrel said:

Peter Dove said:

Stop complaining and get so good that you dont need to worry about
us amateurs.

Or is being professional mean you look down your nose at others?

Peter

Darrel said:

James Riley said:

Darrel said:

Why is it that people always feel that they have to try and recoup
their money on photography equipment? It's a hobby just like
anything else. I ride motorcycles but I didn't start a motorcycle
business to recoup the expense of my new bike.

Click to expand...

If somebody were to ask you to run errands for them on your bike,
eventually you would want to charge something, wouldn't you?

--
JR

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YES! i agree with you 100% & im the one who started this thread. I see it in some photographers eyes-"oh, god another wana be-causing the bus to be devided even further". I can understand your point of view! Look at journalisim, every Tom, **** & Harry can try it & would be (shoot IS) willing to sell there work very (& i mean VERY) cheep, mosly in order to be published, in sone cases to make a quick buck. BUT now the pros (realying on the job as livelyhood) must lower there rates in order to compet!
I feel for the pros in these situations!

Mabey its time to legitimise the photography proffesion!?!? ie, coledge, licence requirements?..... i know i just opened up a whole new can of worms here but lets see where it goes.

Darrel said:

Zen000 said:

Darrel said:

We were doing an equestrian event a while back, shooting for
clients, handing out cards, etc. Some $#$% with a point-n-shoot
trying to recoup his $500 walked around behind us offering prints
for almost nothing knowing that we were there trying to do
business. Guess he was trying to raise money for a new neck strap
or something. We spend a lot of time at events networking, making
our name known, forming relationships for other events, etc.
Armatures trying to make their $500 back on their new toy in some
cases really mess it up for those that are trying to make a living
at it.

Zen000 said:

Aslo, thanks to everyone with all your responces, its really
apreciated! & very interesting.

Darrel said:

Bill Grove said:

If there is an area of photography that you really enjoy you can
make some money part time with it. I really youth sports
photography, I have a football and wrestling son and a softball,
soccer, basketball daughter. I helped justify the cost of new
camera equipment by taking a few extra sports photos of kids and
sell them for a resonable price. This is an area that there may or
may not be someone (read pro) doing in your area. I am not trying
to step on toes or put a full-time photographer out of business. I
have only looked at sports and clubs or leagues were there is no
one doing it. Most money in youth sports is made in the team photo
business which to me would be just another job. I prefer the
action photo side of things as it is a much greater challenge and
something that most parents can't do themselves. My business is
setup as a legitimate business, I pay sales tax and income tax. I
haven't paid for my D100 and lenses yet but I am getting pretty
close. My goal is to simply cover the cost of new equipment that I
want to buy. A second goal is to get my kids interested and try to
do some of the photography themselves and also learn about small
business.

You can take a look at my website at http://www.mvpshots.com

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Thats fair!!!
Best of luck to you!
Nick

Darrel said:

Zen000 said:

Darrel said:

Peter Dove said:

Stop complaining and get so good that you dont need to worry about
us amateurs.

Or is being professional mean you look down your nose at others?

Peter

Darrel said:

James Riley said:

Darrel said:

Why is it that people always feel that they have to try and recoup
their money on photography equipment? It's a hobby just like
anything else. I ride motorcycles but I didn't start a motorcycle
business to recoup the expense of my new bike.

Click to expand...

If somebody were to ask you to run errands for them on your bike,
eventually you would want to charge something, wouldn't you?

--
JR

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Hi.

Just give a center a call, first finding out if they do hold competitions, and ask them if you could set up a stall - explaining what you do. Some will charge you, some wont. If you sell it as a way to improve the experience of the show for most poeple they might not even charge at all

Peter

Zen000 said:

Peter Dove said:

Hi,

My wife and I run an equestrian centre. I take pictures at the
competitions ( one day each weekend ). I print them out on my Epson
2190S and sell them in various sizes.

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i r s0 21337 that i r da sh17 im like da man super duper whoppiedoo....

what about typing "are you" and "money" instead of r u and $?

this is not aol-chat you know....

regards

Gillis Danielsen

In my eyes, if I do photography work for only to suit customer's taste, it is for meal, that no longer means a hobby and nothing of art work at all.

On the other hand, if I do photography independently on my only taste, people like my picture and buy them, this is wonderful.

GH

Zen000 said:

Is anyone making $ with there hobby.
Note: this is not intended for the pro's! Just the ametures who
make some $ on the side. I would like to know how u do it.
Do you:
Sell prints?
Soot occasional wed?
Photo friends events?
Sell on internet?......
Also what type of photos have you made money in?
portraits?
Landscape?
Wildlife?
Sports?....

Im trying to justify the money i spend on photography. So im
looking to make some $ in order to, no not recoop but to buy more
photo equipment.
Thanks,
Nick

Click to expand...

--



http://www.digital-life-21.com/forums/
Nikon D1x, Nikon FM3A, Canon S45

I did not want to say anything after Peter Dove, it would be just piling on, but this love fest you two are having is just too much.

Suck it up, thanks to today's electronics, there is going to be plenty amateurs out there with decent pictures to sell. We just have to get even better, and develop a profession reputation at the same time. Get the buyers to pick your stuff instead not just because they are good, but make the pictures even better, add in creative and other elements that the amateurs do not have the time and equipment to cultivate.

That is the new world. Raising the stake is the only road to survival!

I say that because I see many old pro's insisting on doing things the old way -- shooting JPG with expensive DSLR's, not editing at all, much less post-processing. I see a lot of bad pictures published/sold that could be and should be easily corrected for contrast (or auto-level in PS), color-balance, a few seconds burning and dodging (especially the face area), etc, on the computer, but these old foggies just refused to bulge one step, want to rely on their old reputation to get them to the end.

The buyers are going to get savy soon enough, and there will be a new crop of professionals who rely on their laptops to make their photos a hundred times better, and these old stabborn pro's are going to die!

--
JR

Not true in a lot of cases. Some of our customers at events have a pretty good eye for quality but I've found most are more than willing to pay for a poor photograph. I've shot some that were so good I even impressed myself and was sure the image would sell. Yet, the customer insisted on purchasing what I would consider my throw always. Go figure. If a guy shows up trying to pay off his new hobby and offers prints for $5.00 that I wouldn't even consider worth while putting on a proof sheet, where does that leave the pro trying to sell a quality 5x7 or 8x10 for $20.00? Yes some will buy them but many will opt for the lesser quality $5.00 print. Not to mention it generally hurts the reputation of good event photographers and makes it even harder to get good money for a quality prints at future shows. Especially at equine events, they are a close nit bunch. Ken, are you an event photographer?

Ken Seal said:

If your product is superior to the wanna be then you shouldn't have
any problems.....but if his is close then, well.....that is
competition regardless of where it comes from. Happens in all
aspects of life my friend......but if your work is better.... you
will win out and be in it for years to come!
--
Ken

Click to expand...

Hi Zen000,

I'm only shooting with a CP5700 at the minute, but I am making some money with it.

I shoot Melbourne cityscapes and images of around town which I sell at work and through friends of friends etc. I also shoot for an annual rock festival here- giving them images of the event for their website, sponsor reports, media info pack etc.

All in all, I make enough dollars to be able to claim my photography spending back on tax each year, which comes in very handy.

Even with only buying a CP5700 and Epson 1280/1290, if I couldn't do this, I would have seriously questioned the expediture. I can't believe the people who buy D1x's and 1D's, plus a selection of pro lenses, just for a hobby. But its definately their money )

I am currently looking at ways to open up other income streams with postcards/calender/sovenir companies etc as I am looking to buy a DSLR set-up this year at some stage.

If I can't get them interested, I probably won't buy the DSLR.
--
Regards

Andrew McGregor

I dont want to start a Flame war of any kind here but maybe the "Pro's" should start talking to the "Non Pro's" and show them what they could be making. Granted the work may not be the same quality if the priceing is closer it will probally work out in the end. The Pro should be able to sell more pics and the Non Pro will only be able to sell a few, but he will make the same amount of money as he would have low balling. If the beginer is good than it it simply competition which every body has to deal with any any field.

I had a experience similar to this as a stagehand and lighting tech. It seems that theatre is a industry full of people whom will work dirt cheap just to be backstage and maybe meet some famous people. These people are usually willing to work horrible hours for next to nothing. This becomes especially apperent with concerts where I have seen people work 20 hour days for $8 an hour plus a band T-Shirt, many of them would have worked for just the T-shirt and to watch the concert from the stage. This made it really hard for the pros to support ourselfs. Instead of grumbling about it we began telling the newbies about how bad they were getting ripped off. Over time it got to the point where 90% of these people would no longer let themselves be taken advantage of, they demanded more money and they got it. Now many of them are kicking there selves for being so gullible for so long in the begining. Granted this is different than photography in many ways, it is the same in some. Talk to these people and show them what they can really profit. Yes you may be helping your competition but if they raise there rates and you dont have to drop yours it will boil down to who is better.

I am not a pro, but I do sell shots quite often. And I can tell you the hardest part when I first started selling shots was figuring out what to charge, I did not want to low ball anyone but I found that most of the pro's in my area either would not tell me or in a few cases where charging way to little. I hope to someday make a living at this as well as many others and I realize that charging to little can be the hardest thing to change once you are established.

As far as having images published I feel that it is necassary to look at the publication. If it is a local publication only then the prices will most likely be lower than international, one problem I have seen is people getting paid nothing to shoot for a local Mag, then when they try to sell to a national mag they dont raise there prices.

I guess what I am trying to say is next time someone is trying to lowball you dont get pissy with them. Talk to them and explain to them what they should be charging and why, in general I find people to be greedy and if you make them realize they can make more with less work then they will do it and you can keep your rates at a scale you can live on.

Sorry for the rambling
Brian

Zen000 said:

Darrel said:

I'm sure it's not the norm, but it has happened in different ways
on several occasions. I guess it's somewhat of a bad or otherwise
cynical out look but when you are trying to keep food on the family
table and at the same time do something you love one can get a bit
protective. I do understand the concept of free enterprise. I just
don't like hacks that really don't give a darn about the profession
as a whole and only want to try an make an easy buck.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Darrel said:

My suggestion would be to purchase your equipment like another
hobby and just enjoy it.

Click to expand...

.....

Darrel60784 said:

If you have the talent and want to make
a run at starting business, have a commitment towards
professionalism and providing top quality prints at fair market
value, I'd say go for it. Otherwise, leave the work for those
running a serious business. Just my two cents...

Click to expand...

Often amateur photographers handle the photography that a professional cannot "afford" to do. If a university theatrical troup needs photos but cannot afford the cost of the pro for a 5 hour rehersal (say $100/hr minimum and $20 per print), who is going to do the work to help the kids?

In addition, an amateur will shot an event which may take hours. The subesequent sale of 5 prints at #10 - $20 per 8x10 is certainly does not justify the time expended.

In very many situations, the work being done by an amateur is work that would NEVER be done by professionals. How can this impact the professional's income, particularily if the amateur at least charges a price per print that is similar to expected pro prices?

tony

Sounds like another argument I often hear on the news.

tony field said:

Darrel said:

My suggestion would be to purchase your equipment like another
hobby and just enjoy it.

Click to expand...

.....

tony field said:

If you have the talent and want to make
a run at starting business, have a commitment towards
professionalism and providing top quality prints at fair market
value, I'd say go for it. Otherwise, leave the work for those
running a serious business. Just my two cents...

Click to expand...

Often amateur photographers handle the photography that a
professional cannot "afford" to do. If a university theatrical
troup needs photos but cannot afford the cost of the pro for a 5
hour rehersal (say $100/hr minimum and $20 per print), who is going
to do the work to help the kids?

In addition, an amateur will shot an event which may take hours.
The subesequent sale of 5 prints at #10 - $20 per 8x10 is certainly
does not justify the time expended.

In very many situations, the work being done by an amateur is work
that would NEVER be done by professionals. How can this impact
the professional's income, particularily if the amateur at least
charges a price per print that is similar to expected pro prices?

tony

Click to expand...

I sell some through my site and a lot to people I know, and people they know.

Zen000 said:

Zach S. said:

Zach

Zen000 said:

Is anyone making $ with there hobby.
Note: this is not intended for the pro's! Just the ametures who
make some $ on the side. I would like to know how u do it.
Do you:
Sell prints?
Soot occasional wed?
Photo friends events?
Sell on internet?......
Also what type of photos have you made money in?
portraits?
Landscape?
Wildlife?
Sports?....

Im trying to justify the money i spend on photography. So im
looking to make some $ in order to, no not recoop but to buy more
photo equipment.
Thanks,
Nick

Click to expand...

--
Nikon D100
Nikon 18-35mm f/3.5-4.5D ED AF Zoom-Nikkor
Nikon 28-105mm f/3.5-4.5D AF Zoom-Nikkor
Nikon 70-300mm f/4-5.6D ED AF Zoom-Nikkor
IBM 1Gb Microdrive

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--
Nikon D100
Nikon 18-35mm f/3.5-4.5D ED AF Zoom-Nikkor
Nikon 28-105mm f/3.5-4.5D AF Zoom-Nikkor
Nikon 70-300mm f/4-5.6D ED AF Zoom-Nikkor
IBM 1Gb Microdrive

hmmm...

Is this a US based DP site ?? or some eastern european country labor union debate ??

Accept that things ARE CHANGING!! Use it with all the professionalism You got!! And stop whining!!

Being a PRO You should have NO problem at all.... BUT IF YOU'D RATHER STAY BEHIND IN YESTERDAY????

Darrel said:

tony field said:

Darrel said:

My suggestion would be to purchase your equipment like another
hobby and just enjoy it.

Click to expand...

.....

Darrel60784 said:

If you have the talent and want to make
a run at starting business, have a commitment towards
professionalism and providing top quality prints at fair market
value, I'd say go for it. Otherwise, leave the work for those
running a serious business. Just my two cents...

Click to expand...

Often amateur photographers handle the photography that a
professional cannot "afford" to do. If a university theatrical
troup needs photos but cannot afford the cost of the pro for a 5
hour rehersal (say $100/hr minimum and $20 per print), who is going
to do the work to help the kids?

In addition, an amateur will shot an event which may take hours.
The subesequent sale of 5 prints at #10 - $20 per 8x10 is certainly
does not justify the time expended.

In very many situations, the work being done by an amateur is work
that would NEVER be done by professionals. How can this impact
the professional's income, particularily if the amateur at least
charges a price per print that is similar to expected pro prices?

tony

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

With all the interesting insights on this discussion, is there anyone here who actually makes their living in the Event/Wedding photography business?

Mortenk said:

Accept that things ARE CHANGING!! Use it with all the
professionalism You got!! And stop whining!!

Being a PRO You should have NO problem at all.... BUT IF YOU'D
RATHER STAY BEHIND IN YESTERDAY????

Darrel said:

tony field said:

Darrel said:

My suggestion would be to purchase your equipment like another
hobby and just enjoy it.

Click to expand...

.....

MortenK said:

If you have the talent and want to make
a run at starting business, have a commitment towards
professionalism and providing top quality prints at fair market
value, I'd say go for it. Otherwise, leave the work for those
running a serious business. Just my two cents...

Click to expand...

Often amateur photographers handle the photography that a
professional cannot "afford" to do. If a university theatrical
troup needs photos but cannot afford the cost of the pro for a 5
hour rehersal (say $100/hr minimum and $20 per print), who is going
to do the work to help the kids?

In addition, an amateur will shot an event which may take hours.
The subesequent sale of 5 prints at #10 - $20 per 8x10 is certainly
does not justify the time expended.

In very many situations, the work being done by an amateur is work
that would NEVER be done by professionals. How can this impact
the professional's income, particularily if the amateur at least
charges a price per print that is similar to expected pro prices?

tony

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Darrel said:

Sounds like another argument I often hear on the news.

Click to expand...

Sounds like you are a skeptic!!!! But, unfortunately, it is true.

Quit often a pro will do a considerable amount of work on the "cheap", much less than the going rate. I know of pro's that have shot model portfolios for much less than the going rate because it was of interest to them an the nature of the model school an clients did nto allow standard charging. Other folks have shot speculatively hoping that a client will buy the pictures. For example, some pro's are avid mountain climbers and make a few exta dollars selling their scenic photos in spite of the fact that they normally shoot portraits. Others with an interest in sports car racing will shoot and sell the prints to the drivers or the clubs.

In essence, they are NOT working as "professionals" for these shots because the do not charge "fully" for the cost of their services and would also do the photography even though it might create no revenue what so ever. If they make a few $$$ for these photos, they really are working with a similar attitude that an "amateur making a few $$$" does.

Many amateurs do exactly these things with essentially the same motivation - make a few bucks to prove that your services are worthwhile. Unfortunately, some times the amateur is also better at shooting the event than the professional since his visual perception of the event may be significantly better than the pro who shoots such things very rarely.. (for example, some of the best dance photo's I have seen were photographed by dancers).

I am not totally unsympathetic to your "professional" position since I did work as a pro for about 5 years (a long while ago - I put myself through university while supporting the cost of education and my wife - the long hours were fun). I dropped out because i could make better money elsewhere - and my skills were not "top-notch" (but that does not necessarily mean "bad" since I did survive those years).

I found that the only folks in photography who make a good income were those who were exceptional photographers and/or were excellent at running the business. I have never seen a good pro in this context feel pressured by the amateur photographer.

tony

Interesting points. I guess my opinions are mainly derived form the event photography business which is a bit different than say wedding, portrait or commercial photography. You are dealing in a very fast paced environment especially when you are providing prints on-site while they wait. You have to be the photographer, sales person, customer service and computer geek all at the same time. I've never had a problem competing with other pros, only the hobbyist out for an easy buck at the pros expense. I've run across this more than once doing events. I know there's little I can do about it. I was just expressing an opinion.

tony field said:

Darrel said:

Sounds like another argument I often hear on the news.

Click to expand...

Sounds like you are a skeptic!!!! But, unfortunately, it is true.

Quit often a pro will do a considerable amount of work on the
"cheap", much less than the going rate. I know of pro's that have
shot model portfolios for much less than the going rate because it
was of interest to them an the nature of the model school an
clients did nto allow standard charging. Other folks have shot
speculatively hoping that a client will buy the pictures. For
example, some pro's are avid mountain climbers and make a few exta
dollars selling their scenic photos in spite of the fact that they
normally shoot portraits. Others with an interest in sports car
racing will shoot and sell the prints to the drivers or the clubs.

In essence, they are NOT working as "professionals" for these shots
because the do not charge "fully" for the cost of their services
and would also do the photography even though it might create no
revenue what so ever. If they make a few $$$ for these photos,
they really are working with a similar attitude that an "amateur
making a few $$$" does.

Many amateurs do exactly these things with essentially the same
motivation - make a few bucks to prove that your services are
worthwhile. Unfortunately, some times the amateur is also better
at shooting the event than the professional since his visual
perception of the event may be significantly better than the pro
who shoots such things very rarely.. (for example, some of the
best dance photo's I have seen were photographed by dancers).

I am not totally unsympathetic to your "professional" position
since I did work as a pro for about 5 years (a long while ago - I
put myself through university while supporting the cost of
education and my wife - the long hours were fun). I dropped out
because i could make better money elsewhere - and my skills were
not "top-notch" (but that does not necessarily mean "bad" since I
did survive those years).

I found that the only folks in photography who make a good income
were those who were exceptional photographers and/or were excellent
at running the business. I have never seen a good pro in this
context feel pressured by the amateur photographer.

tony

Click to expand...