It's BACKUP time!!!!

DavidP #28649 · Jan 3, 2003

I once had a disc that I'd started writing in mult-session mode (which I rarely do) one one machine using EZCD. I continued using mult-session on another PC with Nero.

At that point, I could no longer use EZCD to continue in multi-session mode.

I may have the order reversed (which one I used first, and which couldn't be used later), but it was a problem.

The burners were also different, but I suspect the problem was really the differences in the two pieces of software.

--
The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons
http://thewilkinsons.crosswinds.net
Photography -- just another word for compromise

gpb11 · Jan 3, 2003

I know you don't want to commit to any sort of date for DVD support as that tends to build up hopes and you may run into issues beyond your control.

But can you give any sort of approximation as to what "very near future" means in your frame of reference?

Thanks.

-- Lew

MichaelT said:
That having been said, we are proceeding with our plans to add DVD
support into AC in the very near future

MichaelT · Jan 3, 2003

Deeddawg said:
But can you give any sort of approximation as to what "very near
future" means in your frame of reference?

Thanks.

-- Lew

MichaelT said:

That having been said, we are proceeding with our plans to add DVD
support into AC in the very near future

Click to expand...

Lew,

Thanks for being sensitive to the fact that such predictions are subject to many factors both within and outside of our control. But your question is a fair one, and I will be as honest as I can be.

Internally we have a goal set to have a beta version in test before the end of January. Whether this will be a public or private beta remains to be seen. Of course the initial alpha and beta tests will be private. So without comitting or promising anything, that is what we are hoping for within our own internal planning.

If you or anyone would like to be part of the beta test program, please send me an email..

[email protected]

If and when the DVD version is released it will be a free upgrade to all registered users.

--
Regards,

Michael Tapes
(YarcPlus - Archive Creator)
http://www.PictureFlow.com
http://www.michaeltapes.com

DavidP #28649 · Jan 3, 2003

Is the "special intro pricing" still good until the DVD-version comes out?

I still haven't bought it yet (no real need to as I prefer DVD-R), but I don't want to forget and have to purchase it later at whatever the "real price" is.

MichaelT said:
Thanks for being sensitive to the fact that such predictions are
subject to many factors both within and outside of our control. But
your question is a fair one, and I will be as honest as I can be.

Internally we have a goal set to have a beta version in test before
the end of January. Whether this will be a public or private beta
remains to be seen. Of course the initial alpha and beta tests will
be private. So without comitting or promising anything, that is
what we are hoping for within our own internal planning.

If you or anyone would like to be part of the beta test program,
please send me an email..

[email protected]

If and when the DVD version is released it will be a free upgrade
to all registered users.

--
The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons
http://thewilkinsons.crosswinds.net
Photography -- just another word for compromise

MichaelT · Jan 3, 2003

DavidP said:
Is the "special intro pricing" still good until the DVD-version
comes out?

I still haven't bought it yet (no real need to as I prefer DVD-R),
but I don't want to forget and have to purchase it later at
whatever the "real price" is

David,

We are still developing our marketing plans, based on user feedback, sales figures, etc. So I cannot tell you when the special intro pricing will change. With YarcPlus it was 3 months, with AC it could be different. I really do not know because we are in the process of market data acquisition. We have not yet even made our official announcement of the release of V1.1 except to our registered users (some of whom posted it here). And of course, while I would like to, I cannot annouce any price change, say a week before, here on DPR, unless someone asks.

Sorry that I cannot be more firm. We will certainly put up a notice on our web site before any upcoming price change at least a week or so before it happens as we did with the pre-release version.
--
Regards,

Michael Tapes
(YarcPlus - Archive Creator)
http://www.PictureFlow.com
http://www.michaeltapes.com

DavidP #28649 said:
MichaelT said:

Thanks for being sensitive to the fact that such predictions are
subject to many factors both within and outside of our control. But
your question is a fair one, and I will be as honest as I can be.

Internally we have a goal set to have a beta version in test before
the end of January. Whether this will be a public or private beta
remains to be seen. Of course the initial alpha and beta tests will
be private. So without comitting or promising anything, that is
what we are hoping for within our own internal planning.

If you or anyone would like to be part of the beta test program,
please send me an email..

[email protected]

If and when the DVD version is released it will be a free upgrade
to all registered users.

Click to expand...

JCW · Jan 3, 2003

It would take over 25 CDs to archive what I have on disk. And that's just the original files, not including the edited files.

And that's with using Archive Creator, without saving thumbnails or previews.

That's a LOT of CDs!

But then again, better to have a lot of CDs than no files at all.

Thomas Gardner said:
Just a loud thoughtful reminder to take the time to back up all
your irreplaceable images today.

I just finished

If you don't have a CD burner, get one. They're cheap compared to
the feeling of loss you'll experience if you don't take the time to
install and use it to back up both your computer system HDD and a
seperate CD or ten to backup your images onto.

Myself? I have a simple desktop system. Two HDD's of the same
size with Norton's Ghost to mirror the one drive over to the second
back up drive. Should something happen to the first drive, no
biggie. A new drive is installed, fomatted and the information
from the D:/ drive is mirrored back over to the newly installed C:/
drive via the 1.44 meg floppy at the DOS prompt.

For image backup, I place a new disk in the drive. Select the
number of folders that can fit on the CD-R and hit record. When
that's done, I go down the file list until all the image folders
are backed up. Disks are so cheap that they're now throwable, so
you don't have to save the disks. Just throw the old one away
after making a new set and you can use the same jewel cases over
and over again.

Please, for those that don't have a backup plan. GET ONE!!!!!

Hope this friendly reminder saves someone from a terrible loss.

--
jason: http://www.jcwphoto.net

MichaelT · Jan 3, 2003

JCW said:
And that's with using Archive Creator, without saving thumbnails or
previews.

That's a LOT of CDs!

But then again, better to have a lot of CDs than no files at all.

Thomas Gardner said:

Just a loud thoughtful reminder to take the time to back up all
your irreplaceable images today.

I just finished

If you don't have a CD burner, get one. They're cheap compared to
the feeling of loss you'll experience if you don't take the time to
install and use it to back up both your computer system HDD and a
seperate CD or ten to backup your images onto.

Myself? I have a simple desktop system. Two HDD's of the same
size with Norton's Ghost to mirror the one drive over to the second
back up drive. Should something happen to the first drive, no
biggie. A new drive is installed, fomatted and the information
from the D:/ drive is mirrored back over to the newly installed C:/
drive via the 1.44 meg floppy at the DOS prompt.

For image backup, I place a new disk in the drive. Select the
number of folders that can fit on the CD-R and hit record. When
that's done, I go down the file list until all the image folders
are backed up. Disks are so cheap that they're now throwable, so
you don't have to save the disks. Just throw the old one away
after making a new set and you can use the same jewel cases over
and over again.

Please, for those that don't have a backup plan. GET ONE!!!!!

Hope this friendly reminder saves someone from a terrible loss.

Click to expand...

--
jason: http://www.jcwphoto.net

..Into smaller groups. that is usually better. And remember that when you leave the program, you can come back directly to the burn screen and begin to burn again where you left off. You do not need to do it all at once. You can do it over a few days. A good idea is also to save the File Selection List, so that you do not have to pick the files again should you ever want the same archive list.

Also there are now options to put the Index on a seperate CD, so assuming that it can fit on 1 CD, it only adds 1 CD to the 25. This is a new option in the V1.1 release.
--
Regards,

Michael Tapes
(YarcPlus - Archive Creator)
http://www.PictureFlow.com
http://www.michaeltapes.com

Robert Burkhalter · Jan 3, 2003

MichaelT said:
As I believe that I stated in my post, a burner is smarter than a
reader and can figure out the TOC from the "special" info on the
multi-session disc and in many cases read the disc, because it is a
burner. A CD reader should not be able to.

Michael

I did the burns on my LaCie DVD-RW with Toast, and the verifications by reading the disk thru my DVD-RAM disk so the burn software would be different. Verification for me is having iView MediaPro open each individual file in "media" mode where it is forced to expand the raw file and the THX file to display the exif data.

I then, after your last post, took the disk over to my old iBook, which has only a CD READER and verified it there the same way. I even copied the files from the CD onto the hard drive and verifieid them a second time (using iView MediaPro) to get more verification all is well.

I then took the disc (don't tell my mac friends this) over to a windows machine and used raw image converter (from canon) to expand them into tiffs. All seems well and readable. That too was only a reader.

I cannot think of anything more to attempt to exhibit the behavior you suggest. I believe my machinery is not exceptional. Unless you can suggest something more, I must consider your remarks about the unsafeness of writing sessions to be a mistake.
Please advise.
Bob

Shaun Masterman · Jan 3, 2003

Ahoy Flame-Warriors

CD-R with XP is a PITA in my book too. No CD spanning just kills me.

I have a lot of data (40GB or more) to b/u as well as images - all supercritical. A lot of it thankfully remains static (once its backed up it stays backed up) a lot of it doesn't.

I tried iomega peerless for those interested 20GB removable cartridges - software that will compress the data (quite well) and bit verify - sounds perfect - but the media is so fragile. I copy stuff to the drive and have an 80% chance of having to format the drive befopre I can ever get a byte off of it. I dont know wether Im being to harsh on the drives (in my pocket till I get offsite) or its just a poor system. Either way its not suitable for critical backups (well it hasnt been for me) Ive had to double up - one offsite, one onsite, last generation onsite in the hope that in a disaster one of them will be readable...

Im looking at offsite storage next - use my DSL when Im asleep to upload my data somewhere safe...

DavidP said:
That's the reason I went with DVD-R/RAM.

Also, having an external firewire 120 GB HDD as a second "backup"
(and a speedy one, at that) makes it a lot less of a PITA. Until
I get the data onto DVD-RAM, it's on my HDD and on the external HDD.

MichaelT said:

Thanks. I appreciate your well wishes.

I think we just differ on our definitions of PITA.

However, we both agree that the message is clear. Archive your files.

Click to expand...

--
The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons
http://thewilkinsons.crosswinds.net
Photography -- just another word for compromise

MKW26615 · Jan 3, 2003

I just got a DVD burner and am in the process of backing up > 50gb of images. I have been keeping an external copy on a Firewire HD and also burning some stuff to CD, but DVD-R is making getting all of this backed up SO much easier.
Matthew

Robert Bedwell said:
Thanks,
Bob

Thomas Gardner said:

Just a loud thoughtful reminder to take the time to back up all
your irreplaceable images today.

I just finished

If you don't have a CD burner, get one. They're cheap compared to
the feeling of loss you'll experience if you don't take the time to
install and use it to back up both your computer system HDD and a
seperate CD or ten to backup your images onto.

Myself? I have a simple desktop system. Two HDD's of the same
size with Norton's Ghost to mirror the one drive over to the second
back up drive. Should something happen to the first drive, no
biggie. A new drive is installed, fomatted and the information
from the D:/ drive is mirrored back over to the newly installed C:/
drive via the 1.44 meg floppy at the DOS prompt.

For image backup, I place a new disk in the drive. Select the
number of folders that can fit on the CD-R and hit record. When
that's done, I go down the file list until all the image folders
are backed up. Disks are so cheap that they're now throwable, so
you don't have to save the disks. Just throw the old one away
after making a new set and you can use the same jewel cases over
and over again.

Please, for those that don't have a backup plan. GET ONE!!!!!

Hope this friendly reminder saves someone from a terrible loss.

Click to expand...

--
------------------------------------------------
M.K. Whitley
http://www.mkwphotography.com

'I have never let my schooling interfere with my education.'

Mark Twain

MKW26615 · Jan 3, 2003

Thomas,

While I agree with your comments about him being truthgul in promoting AC, I think you are missing a couple of points:

1) CD's can have errors... these errors can corrupt data. Windows XP does not verify that the data written to a disk is identical to the data you started with, while AC does. Since you are creating a backup as a completely reliable source of your data in the case of the loss of the original, why would you accept something that doesn't provide the highest level of confidence in your backup? I value my images enough to not consider this an irrelevant techie issue.

2) While copying over a few hundred images to one or two CD's with XP is easy, archiving an enormous amount (i.e. multiple gigs) is not. I think this is the main draw of AC. It takes a set of images, spans them over a number of CD's automatically, and then creates an HTML index to make locating an image on the disks a simple task. This ability to optimize and speed up the archiving the backup of a large number of images is the real strength of AC.

I have AC and I think it is a good product. Once it has DVD support, it will be a great product

. If you are happy with XP, thats fine... but do realize that Michael's program does do things that XP won't do, whether you need these features or not.

Take care all,
Matthew

MKW26615 · Jan 3, 2003

Try doing that with 10 gigs of images... it is a PITA , IMO. Its amazing how condescending and rude you have become in this thread. It may be easy to do, but its not convenient and, when archiving large numbers of images, it seriously decreases the time required to do so.

Thomas Gardner said:
MichaelT said:

Obviously the PITA factor is subjective. I do not consider the XP
capability because I always have more than a CDs worth of photo
files to archive, so any thing that does not automatcally span CDs,
to me is a PITA and I do not consder for my end user needs.

Click to expand...

But it does in a way do that. It tells you if there's too many
bite to be stored on the CD than it can handle. So you choose a
few less folders, write to the CD, the CD ejects. You put the next
CD into the tray, pick the next set of folders and you're on your
way. It's not subjective, it really is easy. If easy is
subjective, then you have to say, "warning, anybody that doesn't
have a brain shouldn't use this computer". The point, not too many
brainless people using a computer

Thomas Gardner said:

I will stop here with another apology if I improperly stated my
"case" so that this does not turn into "one of those threads".

Click to expand...

Thanks, I'm expecting some of the children to pile on

Thomas Gardner said:

Your point of people archiving is a good one, and I was trying to
contrinute to that thought.

Click to expand...

When you describe an easy process as being a PITA, it has a
tendency to cause some to not even try. I want to encourage people
to backup their images as if the drive goes on the fritz, then
they're dead in the water, with only an expensive, time consuming,
service charge of up to a grand as the only avenue for relief. Oh!
And there's no guarentees the recovery company will be
successfull

Thomas Gardner said:

I will also go check out the XP native burning so that I can be
more up to date, rather than relying on my recollections of when I
had previously researched it.

Click to expand...

Good luck with your endevors.

--
------------------------------------------------
M.K. Whitley
http://www.mkwphotography.com

'I have never let my schooling interfere with my education.'

Mark Twain

MKW26615 · Jan 3, 2003

Doug MacMillan said:
actually, he's a Georgia Tech grad

Well that explains it.

Matthew

P.S. I went to Georgia

Doug MacMillan said:
In addition to backing up our work, reach out to friends and family
who may have just recently gotten a digital camera. I have an
extreme case horror story to relate.

My step-father-in-law, who's in his 70's, bought himself a nice
Minolta digicam six months ago. I found out over the holidays that
he's been taking his CF card to Wolf's (horrors), who's been
sending the card to Atlanta and getting 4x6 prints from them. No
alterations, just straight out of the camera. When he gets his
cards and prints back, he's been deleting the images from the card
and starting all over. Since he got his camera, our family has had
a wedding, a birth, several birthdays and all the holidays. All he
has to show for most of these is uncorrected bad prints. He hadn't
even loaded the camera's software on his computer!

I spent all yesterday afternoon installing software and teaching
him how to use the card reader (which I insisted he buy when he
bought his camera) to copy his files to his hard drive. I also
taught him how to use the included software to do minor corrections
to his images. Finally, I taught him how to burn the results to a
CD (he'd never burned a CD before!) so he can take it to Sam's and
have prints made for 20 cents apiece instead nearly a buck apiece.

By now I'm sure you're thinking he must be some sort of rube.
Actually, he's a Georgia Tech grad (I know, that's not exactly
irrefutable evidence ;-)
) and retired from a 40 year career in electronic warfare. In
other words, don't assume those you know who've entered the digital
photography age are knowledgable of or comfortable with the entire
workflow.

During the course of our time together, he asked me if he could
delete images from his hard drive if he wanted to. I asked him why
he might want to do that. He was afraid of running out of room. I
pointed out that he had 38 gig of free space, and perhaps that was
a small concern.

Regards,
Doug

--
------------------------------------------------
M.K. Whitley
http://www.mkwphotography.com

'I have never let my schooling interfere with my education.'

Mark Twain

Thomas Gardner · Jan 3, 2003

MKW said:
Try doing that with 10 gigs of images... it is a PITA , IMO. Its
amazing how condescending and rude you have become in this thread.

Aaaaaa, where did I become condescending where I spoke down to someone and where's the anti-social behavior which is the definition of rude?

Ten gigs is easy to backup. It's not hard and it's not a PITA for me. I point, I click and it's done. What's the deal?

First you don't use ten gigs of info at any one time and point. Why are you backing up ten gigs of images anyway? You're a very smart, well educated indiviual and your memory is just fine. You catalog everything in your head, you know it and I do also. That's the nice thing about having a brain that works.

As you save the shots you take, you create descriptive folders. I know you do this. When you make copies of these folders on the CD, you write the names of the folders and the folder tree in the cover of the CD jewel box in pencil. You're smart, you think ahead, you know you're going to be making changes, that's why the large eraser. I keep a sharp pencil and a large eraser by my side so I can make any immediate necessary written adjustments. It's not hard and it's not a PITA.

And the next time that you want to make copies of your folders, it's only necessary to copy files that have been changed. It's not hard.

So please don't go to the argumentative unless you want to show me where I've been rude. And please, don't try and confuse rude with speaking truthfully.

MKW26615 said:
It may be easy to do, but its not convenient and, when archiving
large numbers of images, it seriously decreases the time required
to do so.

My but you're in an argumentative mood. Why do I say this. In the time you've taken to write your uncalled for response, you could have archived five gigs of info.

Backing up info is not hard, inconvenient nor a PITA. It only takes a few minutes once your protocol is in place.

MKW26615 · Jan 3, 2003

Thomas,

Your overall tone is patronizing and condescending. I have no desire to continue this dialogue. FYI, while I wrote that I did archive 5Gb of images... to a DVD-R (ok so it took a little longer to burn than that took to write, but you get the point).

Matthew

Thomas Gardner said:
MKW said:

Try doing that with 10 gigs of images... it is a PITA , IMO. Its
amazing how condescending and rude you have become in this thread.

Click to expand...

Aaaaaa, where did I become condescending where I spoke down to
someone and where's the anti-social behavior which is the
definition of rude?

Ten gigs is easy to backup. It's not hard and it's not a PITA for
me. I point, I click and it's done. What's the deal?

First you don't use ten gigs of info at any one time and point.
Why are you backing up ten gigs of images anyway? You're a very
smart, well educated indiviual and your memory is just fine. You
catalog everything in your head, you know it and I do also. That's
the nice thing about having a brain that works.

As you save the shots you take, you create descriptive folders. I
know you do this. When you make copies of these folders on the CD,
you write the names of the folders and the folder tree in the cover
of the CD jewel box in pencil. You're smart, you think ahead, you
know you're going to be making changes, that's why the large
eraser. I keep a sharp pencil and a large eraser by my side so I
can make any immediate necessary written adjustments. It's not
hard and it's not a PITA.

And the next time that you want to make copies of your folders,
it's only necessary to copy files that have been changed. It's not
hard.

So please don't go to the argumentative unless you want to show me
where I've been rude. And please, don't try and confuse rude with
speaking truthfully.

Thomas Gardner said:

It may be easy to do, but its not convenient and, when archiving
large numbers of images, it seriously decreases the time required
to do so.

Click to expand...

My but you're in an argumentative mood. Why do I say this. In the
time you've taken to write your uncalled for response, you could
have archived five gigs of info.

Backing up info is not hard, inconvenient nor a PITA. It only
takes a few minutes once your protocol is in place.

--
------------------------------------------------
M.K. Whitley
http://www.mkwphotography.com

'I have never let my schooling interfere with my education.'

Mark Twain

Thomas Gardner · Jan 3, 2003

MKW said:
Thomas,
While I agree with your comments about him being truthgul in
promoting AC, I think you are missing a couple of points:
1) CD's can have errors... these errors can corrupt data.

Matthew, please, look at my comment. There's a difference between PITA and unreliability. Nobody was speaking about the reliability issue, we were speaking about it being a PITA.

MKW26615 said:
Windows
XP does not verify that the data written to a disk is identical to
the data you started with, while AC does. Since you are creating a
backup as a completely reliable source of your data in the case of
the loss of the original, why would you accept something that
doesn't provide the highest level of confidence in your backup? I
value my images enough to not consider this an irrelevant techie
issue.

My images are mirrored, not backed up to a second drive and the images are copied separately, at a different time and moment, over to the CD-R disk. So I now have three sets of images. Now, is this the most reliable system? I would have to say it's stable yet does not exhibit the maximum protection possible. But it would have to be said that it's a system which is better than no system

All people are welcome to archive their system in any manner, shape or form that their creativity wishes to. That's fine. A person is welcome to multilayer the protocol in any manner they wish to. The point of the original point was; it's the beginning of the year! People! Please, before you lose your images...... please, make copies of them in any manner, shape or form of your choosing. But make copies!

I didn't expect any childish argument as to reliability issues clouding the valid message of making some sort of usable copy of irreplaceable images.

MKW26615 said:
2) While copying over a few hundred images to one or two CD's with
XP is easy, archiving an enormous amount (i.e. multiple gigs) is
not.

Sure it is. What, you think I haven't worked this through in the seventeen years I've been playing with this computer stuff

MKW26615 said:
I think this is the main draw of AC.

Which is nice. If you want to sell, buy or invest in AC, cool. But what does this have to do with my experiences with Windows XP not being a PITA when it comes to coping file folders to a CD for archiving? It's simple, you point, you click, you copy your folders to a CD. What's the deal? The disk gets kicked out, you put another in the tray, close the tray, CTRL click some more file folders and it gets done. Ten minutes or twenty minute, maybe even thirty minutes but it's no big deal.

I know the difference between hawking ones wares as opposed to a valid lament.

MKW26615 said:
It takes a set of
images, spans them over a number of CD's automatically, and then
creates an HTML index to make locating an image on the disks a
simple task.

That's nice that it can do that but I can do that with pencil, eraser and a piece of paper. I haven't lost these organizational skills. I still know how to use a primitive writing instrument known as a pencil

MKW26615 said:
This ability to optimize and speed up the archiving
the backup of a large number of images is the real strength of AC.

Great, I'm happy this ability exists. I use Norton's Ghost and I end up with a HDD that's usable should anything happen to my C:/ drive

I don't have to think. I open the case, unplug the old drive, put a new drive in it's stead and turn the computer back on. Yepper! That third drive's still sitting there by my knee, waiting to get the call

MKW26615 said:
I have AC and I think it is a good product. Once it has DVD
support, it will be a great product . If you are happy with XP,
thats fine... but do realize that Michael's program does do things
that XP won't do, whether you need these features or not.

You've made that point abundently clear

AC is great, I'll throw my sliced bread away

But you haven't convinced me that Windows XP is a PITA to use for the purpose of archiving copies of your precious images using a CD-RW deck

Thanks for your thoughts on the subject.

By the by, I've enjoyed the shots you have over on your web site. I don't have any fancy pants birds in my backyard but this is the shot your site inspired me to capture. Don't fall over laughing

Remember, all creatures great and small

http://www.photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=1200905&size=lg

Thomas Gardner · Jan 3, 2003

MKW said:
Thomas,
Your overall tone is patronizing and condescending. I have no
desire to continue this dialogue. FYI, while I wrote that I did
archive 5Gb of images... to a DVD-R (ok so it took a little longer
to burn than that took to write, but you get the point).

Maybe you're just easily miffed. There's two sides to a coin as you never did point out a specific social violation.

DavidP #28649 · Jan 3, 2003

While YOU may not think it's a PITA, I'd venture to say that most of us feel that is is a PITA.

'nuf said.

Thomas Gardner said:
Which is nice. If you want to sell, buy or invest in AC, cool.
But what does this have to do with my experiences with Windows XP
not being a PITA when it comes to coping file folders to a CD for
archiving? It's simple, you point, you click, you copy your
folders to a CD. What's the deal? The disk gets kicked out, you
put another in the tray, close the tray, CTRL click some more file
folders and it gets done. Ten minutes or twenty minute, maybe even
thirty minutes but it's no big deal.

I know the difference between hawking ones wares as opposed to a
valid lament.

--
The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons
http://thewilkinsons.crosswinds.net
Photography -- just another word for compromise

DavidP #28649 · Jan 3, 2003

Yeah, I guess you can do it that way.

But for me, that's a REAL PITA.

Much easier to use something like AC

Thomas Gardner said:
That's nice that it can do that but I can do that with pencil,
eraser and a piece of paper. I haven't lost these organizational
skills. I still know how to use a primitive writing instrument
known as a pencil

--
The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons
http://thewilkinsons.crosswinds.net
Photography -- just another word for compromise

Thomas Gardner · Jan 3, 2003

DavidP said:
While YOU may not think it's a PITA, I'd venture to say that most
of us feel that is is a PITA.

Well! I'll just have to make sure not to include most of your opinions in my usefullness poll

It's BACKUP time!!!!

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