7D soft images?

baran · Mar 16, 2012

I just bought 7D for more reach in birding. Till now I used 5D2 and 300 2.8 with 1.4 teleconverter. 5D2 combo was very brilliant.

After I made some 100 pics with the 7D I have the feeling of some general softness. The amount of usable cropping is limited. At the end and after increased sharpening I can see some advantage over the 5d but much less then expected.

Can anybody confirm this?
Please show me some great (bird) pictures with the 7D without crazy PP.

thanks,
baran
--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/kbaranowski/

Mark in BC · Mar 16, 2012

--Mark

baran · Mar 16, 2012

yes, like these. Can you tell me, if any cropping has been applied? Which lens?

--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/kbaranowski/

ESfishdoc · Mar 16, 2012

I went the other direction...from the 7D to the 5DmkII. I think what you are experiencing is normal. I also have the 300 2.8 and + - 1.4 TC.

You may find that where the MkII shot at iso 800-1600 was very acceptable on the 7D you will be looking for noise reduction. The 7D files may need some tweaks that the 5D didn't and vice versa.

Overall I'd say the 5D files are easier to work with while the 7D files are a bit more labor intensive. Assuming all else is equal and the shot is perfect the output of the 7D can be equal to the 5D and in the right hands a tad better when working telephoto.

Look at this guys work... dcstep....

http://www.flickr.com/photos/dcstep/

Most of his telephoto wildlife shots are with the 7D. These are good examples of what can be had...

Richard

--

http://esfishdoc.com/blog

My Flickr Photostream Slideshow

http://www.flickr.com/photos/33755787@N03/show/

My Images at Photo.net
http://photo.net/photos/esfishdoc

Zeee · Mar 16, 2012

baran said:
I just bought 7D for more reach in birding. Till now I used 5D2 and 300 2.8 with 1.4 teleconverter. 5D2 combo was very brilliant.

After I made some 100 pics with the 7D I have the feeling of some general softness. The amount of usable cropping is limited. At the end and after increased sharpening I can see some advantage over the 5d but much less then expected.

Can anybody confirm this?
Please show me some great (bird) pictures with the 7D without crazy PP.

thanks,
baran
--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/kbaranowski/

You need to post some images so people can tell you what they think may be going on.

crop

Here is a link to one of my crops.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1019&message=40852552

--

Weaseling out of things is important to learn! It's what separates us from the animals. Except the weasel.

Homer Simpson

kimvette · Mar 16, 2012

Shot with my 7D:

(downscaled)

That was the very first photo I ever shot with my EF70-300mm f/4-5.6 IS USM lens. It was slightly soft so I did have to apply an unsharp mask but not to any great degree. As you can see the final result is plenty sharp.

Why is raw slightly soft out of the camera? Because of the strong AA filter in front of the sensor. There is enough data in the image for an unsharp mask to work extremely well without going overboard.
--
Caution: Do not stare into laser with remaining eye.

Jerry-astro · Mar 16, 2012

These are from a 7D with 100-400 (at 400mm). Both are cropped, the second more heavily:

baran · Mar 16, 2012

thanks Richard,

5D5 noise-wise especially in the 800-1600 range, is of course way better than 7D.

This was expectable. I'm just wondering how much is the influence on the general sharpness.

So, you also got some good results with 300 2.8 + TC 1.4?

I will try to get some sample pics this weekend.

ESfishdoc said:
I went the other direction...from the 7D to the 5DmkII. I think what you are experiencing is normal. I also have the 300 2.8 and + - 1.4 TC.

You may find that where the MkII shot at iso 800-1600 was very acceptable on the 7D you will be looking for noise reduction. The 7D files may need some tweaks that the 5D didn't and vice versa.

Overall I'd say the 5D files are easier to work with while the 7D files are a bit more labor intensive. Assuming all else is equal and the shot is perfect the output of the 7D can be equal to the 5D and in the right hands a tad better when working telephoto.

Look at this guys work... dcstep....

http://www.flickr.com/photos/dcstep/

Most of his telephoto wildlife shots are with the 7D. These are good examples of what can be had...

Richard

--

http://esfishdoc.com/blog

My Flickr Photostream Slideshow

http://www.flickr.com/photos/33755787@N03/show/

My Images at Photo.net
http://photo.net/photos/esfishdoc

--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/kbaranowski/

baran · Mar 16, 2012

very spectacular pics Zee Char!
yep, I'll definitely post some examples later on.

How are your settings for sharpness? In DPP or PS?
thanks

--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/kbaranowski/

baran · Mar 16, 2012

nice pics, Jerry Astro. Thank you!
--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/kbaranowski/

springbock · Mar 16, 2012

You asked for great pics so I can't help you there but i can post some descent pics shot with the 7D. Used with either the 400 5.6 or Sigma 70 2.8 macro. As far as cropping goes.... darn near every bird pic is cropped when using only a 400 even with APS-C! The fact is to get a better birding camera you have to spend $3,500 more than a 7D for a 1D MK IV. I eagerly look forward to a new 7D MK2.

You get the idea. If you've been hanging out in the 5D forum you might have read a few posts by some clowns over there who keep spouting that the 7D is crud compared to supposed (full frame) cameras. I hate that term "full frame"! When 35mm film was out it wasn't called "full frame", in fact it was thought of as a smaller negative with inferior image quality to other larger formats. but now 5D owners just love that term because it makes their camera sound superior

.

--
'The truth is rarely pure and never simple' Oscar Wilde

Mark in BC · Mar 16, 2012

--n/t
--Mark

Gord SW Ont · Mar 16, 2012

..."lots" of nice shots. 8^)

I really like the bird with the blurred wings flying just off the branch . Just something special about it imo. Congrats.

Keep up the good work!

--
A Few Images ... http://www3.sympatico.ca/gord.lange/a_few_images/

rhone · Mar 16, 2012

Gord SW Ont said:
..."lots" of nice shots. 8^)

I really like the bird with the blurred wings flying just off the branch . Just something special about it imo. Congrats.

Keep up the good work!

--
A Few Images ... http://www3.sympatico.ca/gord.lange/a_few_images/

I was going to say the same thing! I'm not really into bird pics, personally (appreciate that many are, however), but that particular photo was really great...transcends the genre.

Here's one of mine (day I tried birding...like I said, I appreciate what's involved to those who are into it)

springbock · Mar 17, 2012

Thank you very much Mark and Gord and rhone! I appreciate your very nice comments

.

This is a pic that was the second in a burst as it left it's perch. The 8 frames a second come in really handy, the 7D tracked pretty well too. Even at 8 frames a second you can see that the birds position had already moved significantly, those little guys are fast.

This is that same pic again followed by the second in the burst.

Cheers,
Tom

--
'The truth is rarely pure and never simple' Oscar Wilde

baran · Mar 17, 2012

Hi Springbock,

a very good IQ - much more than just "decent"!

I like 7d and 70mm combination, especially the fly shot, very much for its contrast, color and sharpness. BIFs are also great IMO.

Yesterday I made a fair close shot with awesome IQ. ISO 400 - 800 is still very usable. 1600 is depending on the light. I can definitely live with those noise levels and buying 1d4 isn't an option for me.

Today I did some more distant shots of my family members (I wouldn't like to post them on the internet). Most of them were soft. Maybe it's a focus problem.

--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/kbaranowski/

FUN2DRV · Mar 17, 2012

I've had my 7D for two years and now all of the sudden I'm getting soft images too. I just sent my camera and lens to Canon for repairs and they came back with a note saying that the camera was within specs. There is no way that every single L lens that I have is performing so poorly. After a conversation with Canon the camera will be going back next week, this time with both good examples of what the camera can do and examples of soft pics that I'm getting now. This can be beyond frustrating when you know what the camera is capable of doing when it is working right...

Good luck!

Tiosabas · Mar 17, 2012

baran said:
I just bought 7D for more reach in birding. Till now I used 5D2 and 300 2.8 with 1.4 teleconverter. 5D2 combo was very brilliant.

After I made some 100 pics with the 7D I have the feeling of some general softness. The amount of usable cropping is limited. At the end and after increased sharpening I can see some advantage over the 5d but much less then expected.

Can anybody confirm this?
Please show me some great (bird) pictures with the 7D without crazy PP.

thanks,
baran
--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/kbaranowski/

Hi, I think what you are seeing is normal too. I think using a 7D over a 5DII is a good idea if you are doing so in order to avoid using an extender which btw would not give you much more reach in a focal length limited situation.

The 5DII handles extenders very well because when you put on the extender you reduce the amount of light reaching the pixels and you generally need to bump up your ISO which is not so much a problem for the 5DII even after cropping up to maybe ISO 2000 depending on your taste. When I use an extender on my 5DII and 300 2.8 I am using ISO800 min to get high shutter speed to freeze subject movement. Most of the time I am at 1600.

When you use an extender with a 7D which is not as good at handling higher ISO's, the same rules apply and you get into noisier images quickly which look worse after cropping.

Also the smaller pixels of the 7D pick apart the aberrations introduced by the extender alot more than the larger 5DII pixels which is also working against you when you try to crop. You can stop down the lens to f5.6 to improve this but that also reduces the light reaching the pixels.

However, if you are not using an extender you will have a reach and cropping advantage over the 5DII because you can use your bare lens at f2.8-f4 wide aperture which will enable you to use a lower ISO compared to your 5DII plus extender at f4-f5.6, and the image will hold up to cropping.

So I think the 7D with extender setup would give very good results in lots of light where you can use a low ISO, f5.6-f8 and a high shutter speed, again lots of light.

Of course if you can fill the viewfinder with your subject this is not really an issue but we talking are post cropping situations here.

BTW it has nothing to do with 1.6, 1.3 or "full frame". In focal length limited situations its all about pixel size and focal length.

baran · Mar 17, 2012

Hi Tiosabas,

a lot of food for thought from this post. Thanks for giving so much input.

But 7d + 300 + TC for not moving subjects and ISO max. 400 should be giving some crispy results, right?

For RAW files in DPP - which sharpening setting would you suggest? How is NR out of DPP in your opinion?

thanks!

Tiosabas said:
baran said:

I just bought 7D for more reach in birding. Till now I used 5D2 and 300 2.8 with 1.4 teleconverter. 5D2 combo was very brilliant.

After I made some 100 pics with the 7D I have the feeling of some general softness. The amount of usable cropping is limited. At the end and after increased sharpening I can see some advantage over the 5d but much less then expected.

Can anybody confirm this?
Please show me some great (bird) pictures with the 7D without crazy PP.

thanks,
baran
--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/kbaranowski/

Click to expand...

Hi, I think what you are seeing is normal too. I think using a 7D over a 5DII is a good idea if you are doing so in order to avoid using an extender which btw would not give you much more reach in a focal length limited situation.

The 5DII handles extenders very well because when you put on the extender you reduce the amount of light reaching the pixels and you generally need to bump up your ISO which is not so much a problem for the 5DII even after cropping up to maybe ISO 2000 depending on your taste. When I use an extender on my 5DII and 300 2.8 I am using ISO800 min to get high shutter speed to freeze subject movement. Most of the time I am at 1600.

When you use an extender with a 7D which is not as good at handling higher ISO's, the same rules apply and you get into noisier images quickly which look worse after cropping.

Also the smaller pixels of the 7D pick apart the aberrations introduced by the extender alot more than the larger 5DII pixels which is also working against you when you try to crop. You can stop down the lens to f5.6 to improve this but that also reduces the light reaching the pixels.

However, if you are not using an extender you will have a reach and cropping advantage over the 5DII because you can use your bare lens at f2.8-f4 wide aperture which will enable you to use a lower ISO compared to your 5DII plus extender at f4-f5.6, and the image will hold up to cropping.

So I think the 7D with extender setup would give very good results in lots of light where you can use a low ISO, f5.6-f8 and a high shutter speed, again lots of light.

Of course if you can fill the viewfinder with your subject this is not really an issue but we talking are post cropping situations here.

BTW it has nothing to do with 1.6, 1.3 or "full frame". In focal length limited situations its all about pixel size and focal length.

--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/kbaranowski/

Tiosabas · Mar 17, 2012

Hi Tiosabas,
a lot of food for thought from this post. Thanks for giving so much input.

But 7d + 300 + TC for not moving subjects and ISO max. 400 should be giving some crispy results, right?

For RAW files in DPP - which sharpening setting would you suggest? How is NR out of DPP in your opinion?
thanks!

Well yes I would say you should be getting acceptable results with 7D+300+TC @ ISO 400, In my opinion as long you are not shooting wide open and shutter speed is 800th min. That may sound like overkill but in my experience a high shutter speed is a necessity if you are looking for critical sharpness in telephoto shooting of live subjects.
I've seen examples to the contrary but that's just my experience.

As for RAW files I use LR3 Lum noise slider never above +30 and then selectively sharpen the subject with the brush. LR4 should better as it has Lum noise brush too so you can selectively eliminate noise from OOF areas and apply sharpening to the subject. The mask slider in LR3 introduces artifacts to my eye.

In DPP do you use unsharp mask or the sharpness slider? When you move the sharpness slider you are also sharpening the noise which makes it look worse. I never really experimented with unsharp mask myself.

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