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Help : problem with taking pictures of scenes with highlights
- Thread starter JefDeC
- Start date
Thanks for the reply.
Like you I have some ‘nice night shots’ but I would like to retain more color in the highlights – the ‘light sources’ as you call it, the SD15 is not good at those at all.
So far it seems I will have to stick to my – cumbersome – method of combining 2 pictures.
Note: before someone jumps on my back for ‘bad mouthing’ the SD15 - I’m a SD15 user of the first hour – see my gallery for some of the troublefree pictures the SD15 can produce.
Best regards … jef
Like you I have some ‘nice night shots’ but I would like to retain more color in the highlights – the ‘light sources’ as you call it, the SD15 is not good at those at all.
So far it seems I will have to stick to my – cumbersome – method of combining 2 pictures.
Note: before someone jumps on my back for ‘bad mouthing’ the SD15 - I’m a SD15 user of the first hour – see my gallery for some of the troublefree pictures the SD15 can produce.
Best regards … jef
mike earussi
Veteran Member
No dslr camera has the necessary DR to capturing the full tonal value of intense hoighlights and dark shadows. I shoot lots of night shot panos with both the SD14 and SD15 have just learned to live with blown out lights. I've even tried HRD but the end result looks so weird that it's not worth the effort. I find that underexposing by one or two stops and then bringing up the darker midtones using +fill light is the best overall compromise. My normal shooting proceedure is using my 70mm macro at either f4 or f5.6 (depending on what my tests show) with an 80A filter to compensate for the fact that the Foveon chip doesn't do well without blue light, iso 50 to maximize Dr and minimize noise, and exposing for 30 seconds. The results are here:
http://www.pbase.com/mikeearussi/image/135553018
http://www.pbase.com/mikeearussi/image/134020797
http://www.pbase.com/mikeearussi/image/135553018
http://www.pbase.com/mikeearussi/image/134020797
J. Michael
Veteran Member
Jeff, thought someone else might chime in with this hint, but haven't seen it yet.
I doesn't work all the time but shooting just before dusk just as the lights come on
allows for more ambient light in the scene when the DR isn't quite as extreme.
You then have a little more leeway in your processing, and can darken the shadows if need be (rather than trying to lighten them) to create the impression of night. and might help some with blown/specular highlights. It requires a little more planning, but I've found it works better than trying to shoot after darkness has set in.
Mike
I doesn't work all the time but shooting just before dusk just as the lights come on
allows for more ambient light in the scene when the DR isn't quite as extreme.
You then have a little more leeway in your processing, and can darken the shadows if need be (rather than trying to lighten them) to create the impression of night. and might help some with blown/specular highlights. It requires a little more planning, but I've found it works better than trying to shoot after darkness has set in.
Mike
Mike
You've probably deduced why I have more success - if I'm not shooting 'golden hour(s)', I'm either shooting the hour past sunset, or in an environment that has a lot more ambient light, lowering the overall DR and contrast a little.
Sorry - just realized that when you pointed it out.
The sample street scene looks like it has no ambient light from signage or lighting, other than that hitting within a few feet of each light source. There's no faint sky afterglow or high street lamps that, while they won't show up as bright, will at least provide a minimal level of illumination, given something like 30-90 seconds exposure.
Plus I'm using the SD14, which tends to have a bit better DR than the 15.
If I have a chance later, I'll try to post a pic or two to show that you can get some really beautiful tonality and naturally saturated colours. I do agree though that, at least with my SD14, lack of blue wavelengths can't be fixed adequately in post, losing a further chunk of exposure light from the filter factor.
You've probably deduced why I have more success - if I'm not shooting 'golden hour(s)', I'm either shooting the hour past sunset, or in an environment that has a lot more ambient light, lowering the overall DR and contrast a little.
Sorry - just realized that when you pointed it out.
The sample street scene looks like it has no ambient light from signage or lighting, other than that hitting within a few feet of each light source. There's no faint sky afterglow or high street lamps that, while they won't show up as bright, will at least provide a minimal level of illumination, given something like 30-90 seconds exposure.
Plus I'm using the SD14, which tends to have a bit better DR than the 15.
If I have a chance later, I'll try to post a pic or two to show that you can get some really beautiful tonality and naturally saturated colours. I do agree though that, at least with my SD14, lack of blue wavelengths can't be fixed adequately in post, losing a further chunk of exposure light from the filter factor.
Hi Mike,
Thanks very much for the detailed description of your method and the spectacular example.
You are right about the missing DR in DSLR’s to capture the full DR – Film of yesteryear handled this much better – I wished someone would focus on the high light roll-off characteristics instead of increasing pixels to unworkable amounts.
But I was hoping that the color retention in the roll off could be better - note my SD14 is almost 2 stops better then my SD15 – I wished I could turn off the AFE.
That being said:
You’re technique works wonderfully IMO because you create those beautiful stars which (importantly) DO retain the color information in the the ray’s of those stars.
Looking closely one sees the light source is indeed blown to white as well, but as the ray’s retain color this is effectively ‘masked’ (lack of a better word)
See below for an example from myself with such stars (best viewed @100%) – this was taken with the SD14 - I don’t think the SD15 can manage this (unless you’re method with the filter does the trick).
Again, thank you very much for your post and I will definitely try the 80A filter.
Best regards … jef
Thanks very much for the detailed description of your method and the spectacular example.
You are right about the missing DR in DSLR’s to capture the full DR – Film of yesteryear handled this much better – I wished someone would focus on the high light roll-off characteristics instead of increasing pixels to unworkable amounts.
But I was hoping that the color retention in the roll off could be better - note my SD14 is almost 2 stops better then my SD15 – I wished I could turn off the AFE.
That being said:
You’re technique works wonderfully IMO because you create those beautiful stars which (importantly) DO retain the color information in the the ray’s of those stars.
Looking closely one sees the light source is indeed blown to white as well, but as the ray’s retain color this is effectively ‘masked’ (lack of a better word)
See below for an example from myself with such stars (best viewed @100%) – this was taken with the SD14 - I don’t think the SD15 can manage this (unless you’re method with the filter does the trick).
Again, thank you very much for your post and I will definitely try the 80A filter.
Best regards … jef
No dslr camera has the necessary DR to capturing the full tonal value of intense hoighlights and dark shadows. I shoot lots of night shot panos with both the SD14 and SD15 have just learned to live with blown out lights. I've even tried HRD but the end result looks so weird that it's not worth the effort. I find that underexposing by one or two stops and then bringing up the darker midtones using +fill light is the best overall compromise. My normal shooting proceedure is using my 70mm macro at either f4 or f5.6 (depending on what my tests show) with an 80A filter to compensate for the fact that the Foveon chip doesn't do well without blue light, iso 50 to maximize Dr and minimize noise, and exposing for 30 seconds. The results are here:
http://www.pbase.com/mikeearussi/image/135553018
http://www.pbase.com/mikeearussi/image/134020797
Mike,
that is definitlly good advice, which I can illustrate with 2 pictures from myself (see at the bottom).
But I would like to stress the severity of the color loss in the highlights.
The picture you see below (full size in my Gallery) was taken during daytime with an overcast sky (i.e. even lightning of the scene) - f6.3 1/200 sec !
Do take a look at the red of the traffic light - even during daytime the color is not retained. In full sunlight it is OK. Even my P&S does better in this respect.
I start to wonder whether my SD15 has a problem. I would need some comparison pictures from other SD15 owners - any volunteers ?
Twilight pictures with less obnoxious highlights.
Best regards ... jef
that is definitlly good advice, which I can illustrate with 2 pictures from myself (see at the bottom).
But I would like to stress the severity of the color loss in the highlights.
The picture you see below (full size in my Gallery) was taken during daytime with an overcast sky (i.e. even lightning of the scene) - f6.3 1/200 sec !
Do take a look at the red of the traffic light - even during daytime the color is not retained. In full sunlight it is OK. Even my P&S does better in this respect.
I start to wonder whether my SD15 has a problem. I would need some comparison pictures from other SD15 owners - any volunteers ?
Twilight pictures with less obnoxious highlights.
Best regards ... jef
J. Michael
Veteran Member
An interesting article on DR......and highlight clipping, that might be interesting
the first couple of sample images are missing, but the blanks get filled in pretty quickly further down the page.
http://www.120studio.com/dynamic-range.htm
I'd be interested in any revelations you come across on your "quest".
Mike
the first couple of sample images are missing, but the blanks get filled in pretty quickly further down the page.
http://www.120studio.com/dynamic-range.htm
I'd be interested in any revelations you come across on your "quest".
Mike
Indeed very interesting and it saves me tons of time. It confirms everything I noticed and it IS a general digital camera problem. Remains the fact that my SD15 behaves even worse. I have taken the Pizzahut scene with my P&S and the highlight handling IS better. Those interested can find that picture in my Gallery it has 'P&S -2' stops in the title)
Selectively masking bits of the scene one wants to photograph with neutral plastic gray foil might occasionaly save the day.
Back to film for those specific photographs as the article suggest ... ?
Thanks for the link !
jef
Selectively masking bits of the scene one wants to photograph with neutral plastic gray foil might occasionaly save the day.
Back to film for those specific photographs as the article suggest ... ?
Thanks for the link !
jef
Hi,
have you tried in-camera jpg or in what version of SPP are you developing? Also, after looking in the article posted, and also seeing how higher ISO minimizes orbs in the x10, I am having the impression that current sensors are not sensitive enough to be of any real use, since it is not only lights that can affect the appearance of a picture, but also reflections in water in daylight... As for the ISO, I am not sure where the relation from film to digital ISO comes from, but seems not being of any usefull real-word reference... Digital sensors are so much different than analog (film), that comparing the same shutter speed/aperture to say e.g. "this is ISO xxx equivalent" is half the story... My bet is that for having equivalent handling of a picture, regarding analog and digital, a match for an e.g. iso50/1 sec/f4.5 analog would be a, say, iso7500/1/150sec/f4.5 digital. Those numbers are of course hypothetical, but I guess that the nature of digital is being really fast, so if you (will
) want long shutter speed you d' better get some heavy nd filters greets
have you tried in-camera jpg or in what version of SPP are you developing? Also, after looking in the article posted, and also seeing how higher ISO minimizes orbs in the x10, I am having the impression that current sensors are not sensitive enough to be of any real use, since it is not only lights that can affect the appearance of a picture, but also reflections in water in daylight... As for the ISO, I am not sure where the relation from film to digital ISO comes from, but seems not being of any usefull real-word reference... Digital sensors are so much different than analog (film), that comparing the same shutter speed/aperture to say e.g. "this is ISO xxx equivalent" is half the story... My bet is that for having equivalent handling of a picture, regarding analog and digital, a match for an e.g. iso50/1 sec/f4.5 analog would be a, say, iso7500/1/150sec/f4.5 digital. Those numbers are of course hypothetical, but I guess that the nature of digital is being really fast, so if you (will
) want long shutter speed you d' better get some heavy nd filters greetsguzzibreva1
Senior Member
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Human vision has about 30 stops of dynamic range. Digital has a ways to go to catch up.
Probably caused by the AFE. Here's ISO 800 of DP2.
Hello,
I have a problem with taking pictures of scenes with highlights – for example : pictures of traffic lights at night; the light is invariably blown out to white (unless I use bracketing and combine the pictures).
Maybe my technique is lacking (probably
Anyhow, I guess some of you might have taken similar pictures in the past , I would love to see the results and learn how you got them.
Would be interesting to see the differences between SD9, SD10, … up to SD1 (including the DP’s).
Best regards … jef
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