I can't believe the comments here indicating that there is very little difference.. the sharpness and clarity of the D800E is considerably better.. this has many flow on effects... apart from more real detail (not artificial from sharpening artefacts) not having to sharpen as much helps keep the IQ up (less enhancement of noise etc).
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D800e vs D800 Sample RAW on Polish website
- Thread starter kuzmacom2
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- nikon d800 nikon d800e
I think the clean ISO6400 shot posted right above yours would disagree4. My computer struggles to process several D800/D800E files at the same time. It really is a pain to browse D800/D800E pictures. File size is not a joke.
Also, we have seen photos taken by the other site who underexposed the images at high ISO. Still very clean in the shadows. If you're seeing noise at ISO800 you must be looking incredibly hard, in the shadow areas, with zero noise reduction. I don't think many people should worry about that, since the tiniest bit of noise reduction makes a huge difference.
As for your computer - what are you using now? And why not upgrade it? An $800 laptop would process the files no problem. A simple quad core setup with 6 or 8Gb of RAM will process them even better. An amazing computer with a big 27 inch monitor will cost less than a lens.
I'm using i7 920 @4Ghz, 6Gb memory, 80Gb X25 SSD as the C: with larger 2tb drives as storage. This system didn't cost that much two years ago and I can cycle through the raw files at full speed.
James Bligh
Senior Member
You talk context but I read as it was written. Clearly your statement 'I haven't seen the D4 and certainly not the 5DIII outperform the D800 either.' was broad and global. So I interpreted it as it was written. If it was a mistake or mistaken whose mistake was it?
I believe 5DIII will be better than the D800 at high ISOs in their native resolutions.
You said D800 outperforms D3 for low-light shooting. You should have written it as D800 pictures when downsized to D3 resolution outperform D3 pictures in high ISO shots. It may or it may not, please try to write as accurately as possible. Am I asking you too much?
--
Decision, decision, we are the slaves of decisions we made inadvertently.
May God forgive us our imperfections!
Dust to dust, what on earth are we entitled to claim?
Yours, obviously. The thread tree is there for anyone to see. For instance, the only thing you wrote in your reply to Fearless was "Comparison with 5D3 or D4 may be more relevant", which alone doesn't mean anything. Comparison of what with the 5DIII and D4? Relevant to what? Yet from the context, we were able to see what you meant. Considering that I talked about the D800 outperforming the D3 and D700 in low-light the sentence before saying that I haven't seen the D4 or 5DIII outperform the D800, and the way I connected the sentences, the context should be obvious.
If you're saying that the 5DIII will have better per pixel SNR at high ISOs, then that might be the case. But per pixel SNR is totally useless for any real usage scenario. It's only relevant when looking at 100% crops side by side. If you print, you normalize for a paper size and printer input resolution. If you publish to the web, you normalize for a view size. There's no real usage scenario where per pixel anything would be relevant. And when I said that the D800 outperforms the D3, I meant for any real world usage scenario, as I assumed real world performance is what matters for people. Is that too much to assume?
If you're saying that the 5DIII will have better per pixel SNR at high ISOs, then that might be the case. But per pixel SNR is totally useless for any real usage scenario. It's only relevant when looking at 100% crops side by side. If you print, you normalize for a paper size and printer input resolution. If you publish to the web, you normalize for a view size. There's no real usage scenario where per pixel anything would be relevant. And when I said that the D800 outperforms the D3, I meant for any real world usage scenario, as I assumed real world performance is what matters for people. Is that too much to assume?
John Motts
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According to the wisdom of James Bligh:
"files from the 5DIII look better than files from the D800, but only when reproduced at a smaller size."
Brilliant!
He's been banging on with all this drivel about native resolutions and how "the D800 is a low ISO camera" since it was announced, completely ignoring the fact that every sample so far has clearly shown the opposite.
M Lammerse
Forum Pro
Agreed,
I also see a clear difference..it's if some one did some edge sharpening.
Michel
http://www.fotopropaganda.com/blog
http://www.flickr.com/photos/9240992@N05/ (my pixel mess on flikr)
http://www.pbase.com/photopropaganda
I also see a clear difference..it's if some one did some edge sharpening.
Michel
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- To observe without evaluation is the highest form of human intelligence -
http://www.fotopropaganda.com/blog
http://www.flickr.com/photos/9240992@N05/ (my pixel mess on flikr)
http://www.pbase.com/photopropaganda
James Bligh
Senior Member
Comparison with 5D3 or D4 may be more relevant", which alone doesn't mean anything. Comparison of what with the 5DIII and D4? --- You misunderstood me. I meant in all respects since they are all the products of spring 2012.
When there are people who believe otherwise your own assumption without mentioning it could be dangerous.
--
Decision, decision, we are the slaves of decisions we made inadvertently.
May God forgive us our imperfections!
Dust to dust, what on earth are we entitled to claim?
Yes, but what product? You didn't say what compared to the 5DIII and D4 would be more relevant, but left it up to the context.
Sure, and I'll try to keep that in mind the next time I'm in a critical situation. Luckily, on a photography forum, a assumption that's correct for the vast majority of people can't be classified as dangerous.
Sure, and I'll try to keep that in mind the next time I'm in a critical situation. Luckily, on a photography forum, a assumption that's correct for the vast majority of people can't be classified as dangerous.
eurycea
Leading Member
. I have yet to see any pictures of birds or other animals with either model.
Some of the test shots were of a model next to some jungle cat (ocelot?) by Rob Van Petten. http://weblog.robvanpetten.com/archive/nikon-d800
eurycea
Leading Member
Assuming this is correct for the sake of argument, what would be the technical reason why one would have less read noise than the other, given they both are using the same exact electronics (supposedly)?
James Bligh
Senior Member
Weren’t we talking about D800?
An assumption that is correct for the vast majority of people can't be always true. I know there are many arguments here in dpreview about what is correct. So if I were you I will assume nothing.
--
Decision, decision, we are the slaves of decisions we made inadvertently.
May God forgive us our imperfections!
Dust to dust, what on earth are we entitled to claim?
Steen Bay
Veteran Member
Would be interesting to know how much that "bit of unsharp mask and contrast boost" increases the noise in the D800 images. Will an iso6400 D800 image for example have have the same noise after the boost as an iso12800 D800E image?
This possible reasons come to my mind:
a) LiveView was used in both cases. In case of the camera with more noise it was used for a longer time and the sensor was hotter.
b) Difference in ISO calibration of the camera (pre production)
c) Difference in RAW denoising
e) Difference in RAW format (lossy compressed?)
-or-
f) Maybe the filter of the D800e let through a bit more light. Instead of a "wave filter" which works a bit like a part of a circula polarisation filter it uses just optical glass.
I think the read noise graphs make more sense if the test files were taken without liveview at a certain temperature.
a) LiveView was used in both cases. In case of the camera with more noise it was used for a longer time and the sensor was hotter.
b) Difference in ISO calibration of the camera (pre production)
c) Difference in RAW denoising
e) Difference in RAW format (lossy compressed?)
-or-
f) Maybe the filter of the D800e let through a bit more light. Instead of a "wave filter" which works a bit like a part of a circula polarisation filter it uses just optical glass.
I think the read noise graphs make more sense if the test files were taken without liveview at a certain temperature.
This difference is the preformance of the lens
Macros are usually very sharp - (You could take such a picture with a compact!)
The D800 seems to have an ideal AA filter - so with a lens which is perfectly sharp its effect can be undone by sharpening. But what happens when Your lens is not as sharp (or the conditions are not as good) - then your fine lines get widend up so much, that you need a large radius sharpening.
Without AA the lens is soft of course, too. But it is a bit clearer that without. So if you win 1/2 stop by not having to close the aperture so much.
Macros are usually very sharp - (You could take such a picture with a compact!)
The D800 seems to have an ideal AA filter - so with a lens which is perfectly sharp its effect can be undone by sharpening. But what happens when Your lens is not as sharp (or the conditions are not as good) - then your fine lines get widend up so much, that you need a large radius sharpening.
Without AA the lens is soft of course, too. But it is a bit clearer that without. So if you win 1/2 stop by not having to close the aperture so much.
Weren't we also talking about high-ISO performance? See, context. You didn't specify that it was the D800, but left it up to context.
So you're saying that you never assume anything? That's mighty big of you, I don't think there all that many that can say the same.
So you're saying that you never assume anything? That's mighty big of you, I don't think there all that many that can say the same.
See, I can't believe the comments here indicating that there is some major difference (especially the one with the eye comparison, which I assumed was being sarcastic...guess not). The differences you describe as "considerably better" I would describe as "vanishingly small."
I think it just has to do with expectation levels. When I decided to go the D800 route, I assumed that the D800E would show a MUCH greater level of difference than these pics are showing. At one point I even considered getting a D800E to supplement the D800 if showed enough improvement. If these pics represent the true difference between the D800 and D800E I don't see anything worth even spending an extra $100, let alone $3000. Obviously your expectations are different and you are pleased with the D800E results, to clearly it is the right camera for you.
I'm not sure I agree with your analysis. The AA is a low pass filter, which operates to reduce high frequency details while preserving low frequency details. If you have a softer lens, there should be less high frequency detail to begin, so the difference between the AA and non-AA version should be even less. Thus, I think with a softer lens, there will be even less difference than the already incredibly subtle difference we are seeing with a sharp lens. I'm not an optical engineer, however, so I am happy to be corrected if my understanding is wrong.
James Bligh
Senior Member
I am sorry for not recognizing the context of your writing but it happened that way. Both for your consolation and for my excuse, many people whose mother tongue is not English visit dpreview and there is always a possibility we are misunderstood. So we'd better be as accurate as possible in writing.
I don't know I am big but I know there are much bigger headaches besides me in dpreview.
--
Decision, decision, we are the slaves of decisions we made inadvertently.
May God forgive us our imperfections!
Dust to dust, what on earth are we entitled to claim?
Sure, it's better to be clear. And to be clear, "big of you" is compliment, just in case you didn't know. I'm sure you're right about your last remark.
I am sorry for not recognizing the context of your writing but it happened that way. Both for your consolation and for my excuse, many people whose mother tongue is not English visit dpreview and there is always a possibility we are misunderstood. So we'd better be as accurate as possible in writing.
I don't know I am big but I know there are much bigger headaches besides me in dpreview.
--
Decision, decision, we are the slaves of decisions we made inadvertently.
May God forgive us our imperfections!
Dust to dust, what on earth are we entitled to claim?
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