Help : problem with taking pictures of scenes with highlights

Hello,

I have a problem with taking pictures of scenes with highlights – for example : pictures of traffic lights at night; the light is invariably blown out to white (unless I use bracketing and combine the pictures).

Maybe my technique is lacking (probably ) or maybe my SD15 has some problem.

Anyhow, I guess some of you might have taken similar pictures in the past , I would love to see the results and learn how you got them.

Would be interesting to see the differences between SD9, SD10, … up to SD1 (including the DP’s).

Best regards … jef

Haven't done night shots. But exposing for the highlights & recovering the shadows is what I was taught, for digital ?
Col

The problem with night scenes is that the intensity of the light is only measured in small areas of the sensors and averaged with the remaining dark area.

The situation at night is the same as the situation during the day. The light source (sun) is thousands of times brighter than the ground it is illuminating.

You wouldn't expect the camera to properly expose a daytime scene with sun in view and not blow out the sun. The same for night scenes.

For night scenes I have found using a -2 or -3 bias will work but you need to develop the image to make it look dark, just like it was when you took the picture.

I agree with the concepts you both put forward, but I notice that even -3 stops is not sufficient, I need something like -5 or -6 stops to avoid blowing out the hightlight colors - with -5 stops there is too much noise in the dark parts to have a useable picture.
Could you post an example with the mentioned -2/-3 stops you use ?
I will post examples myself later today.

thanks for the replies.

jef

Here is a shot with -2 bias with a DP1s.

I don't think you can expect the results you are looking for unless you bracket shots and tone map with HDR. I recommend Fusion HDR because it's free and it works as well as any I have tried.

I haven't tried a lot of night shots so maybe others have developed better techniques. I would also like to see more examples.

JefDeC said:

I agree with the concepts you both put forward, but I notice that even -3 stops is not sufficient, I need something like -5 or -6 stops to avoid blowing out the hightlight colors - with -5 stops there is too much noise in the dark parts to have a useable picture.
Could you post an example with the mentioned -2/-3 stops you use ?
I will post examples myself later today.

thanks for the replies.

jef

Click to expand...

Then you should try manual exposure. But you have installed the latest firmware for SD15?

Not big on night shots but I noticed early on that my SD15 and most (or all) other cameras I own will blow out completely on the bright spots in a night photo, even when I spot meter on the lights.

When the bright spots are light sources you have to expose properly for those light sources. This is what your eye does when you are looking right at them. I guess at night even the spot meter function in the SD15 does not have a narrow enough view angle, so it still overexposes.

Of course when you expose for good detail in the shadows all the bright sources will be completely burned out. Thankfully, with Sigmas, this burnout goes white.

I have a Fuji X10 which sometimes renders the burned out areas black, not white. Really a terrible effect.

The only way I have thought about which will fix this problem is to do multiple exposures and patch them all into a HDR. But for me that's just too much trouble. So I don't worry about it much.

Here is the Fuji X10 showing us a black burnout (AKA black orb, hopefully to be fixed soon by Fuji). Thank your lucky stars you have a Sigma!





--
Tom Schum

Yes I have installed the latest firmware.

Actually it is easier to use auto bracketing it gives you a span of > 6 stops either in a serie of 3 or 5 pictures.

jef

PrebenR said:

PrebenR said:

JefDeC wrote:

I agree with the concepts you both put forward, but I notice that even -3 stops is not sufficient, I need something like -5 or -6 stops to avoid blowing out the > > hightlight colors - with -5 stops there is too much noise in the dark parts to have a useable picture.
Could you post an example with the mentioned -2/-3 stops you use ?
I will post examples myself later today.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

PrebenR said:

PrebenR said:

thanks for the replies.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

PrebenR said:

PrebenR said:

jef

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

PrebenR said:

Then you should try manual exposure. But you have installed the latest firmware for SD15?

Click to expand...

-2 will correct the exposure but as you noticed yourself still blows out the color in highlights.
I would love to be able to get this without the cumbersome bracketing technique.

Haven't used Fusion HDR yet, will give it a try - thanks for the tip.

jef

guzzibreva1 said:

Here is a shot with -2 bias with a DP1s.

I don't think you can expect the results you are looking for unless you bracket shots and tone map with HDR. I recommend Fusion HDR because it's free and it works as well as any I have tried.

I haven't tried a lot of night shots so maybe others have developed better techniques. I would also like to see more examples.

Click to expand...

Hi Tom
You're black orbs look almost artistical

Actually the Sigma can be just as difficult look at the example:

allthough I bracketed this shot with -1 and -2 stops none came out without blowing out the flaps of the scoreboard.

On top of this because of the -2 under exposure one gets color banding and noise issues :-(









Best regards ... jef

Tom Schum said:

Not big on night shots but I noticed early on that my SD15 and most (or all) other cameras I own will blow out completely on the bright spots in a night photo, even when I spot meter on the lights.

When the bright spots are light sources you have to expose properly for those light sources. This is what your eye does when you are looking right at them. I guess at night even the spot meter function in the SD15 does not have a narrow enough view angle, so it still overexposes.

Of course when you expose for good detail in the shadows all the bright sources will be completely burned out. Thankfully, with Sigmas, this burnout goes white.

I have a Fuji X10 which sometimes renders the burned out areas black, not white. Really a terrible effect.

The only way I have thought about which will fix this problem is to do multiple exposures and patch them all into a HDR. But for me that's just too much trouble. So I don't worry about it much.

Here is the Fuji X10 showing us a black burnout (AKA black orb, hopefully to be fixed soon by Fuji). Thank your lucky stars you have a Sigma!





--
Tom Schum

Click to expand...

To show what I mean exactly I have shot the same scene with my SD15 and SD14 - same lens and same settings; each 5 pictures bracketed from -1 till -5 stops

You can see that the SD15 even with -5 stops still has no color in the red traffic light.

The SD14 does MUCH better with color in the highlight from -3 stops but the red has shifted to orange. That is more than 2 stopss better than the SD15.

(I blame the AFE for this as this is exactly the behaviour of clipped amplifiers)

I also noted that the SD14 shows the yellow of the Pizzahut closer to the truth.









2 stops underexposure









3 stops underexposure









4 stops underexposure









5 stops underexposure









Best regards ... jef

JefDeC said:

(I blame the AFE for this as this is exactly the behaviour of clipped amplifiers)

Click to expand...

Use ISO100 then, underexposing more stops. ISO 200/400/800 are amplified proportionally, ISO1600 has same gain as ISO800, exposures more than 1 sec are not amplified at all.

And, try Silkypix - it doesn't obey saturation/clipping limits in metadata, but analyzes image itself.

My speculations are based on looking at some SD15 files metadata, nothing official here.

--
Arvo
Sigma/Foveon information collection and little gallery:
http://www.stv.ee/~donq/sigma.htm
http://www.stv.ee/~donq/images.htm

Hello Arvo
I will reshoot the serie with ISO100 but usually the results are worse.
Below the SD15 -5 stops developed with Silkypix - same result.





best regards ... jef

ArvoJ said:

JefDeC said:

(I blame the AFE for this as this is exactly the behaviour of clipped amplifiers)

Click to expand...

Use ISO100 then, underexposing more stops. ISO 200/400/800 are amplified proportionally, ISO1600 has same gain as ISO800, exposures more than 1 sec are not amplified at all.

And, try Silkypix - it doesn't obey saturation/clipping limits in metadata, but analyzes image itself.

My speculations are based on looking at some SD15 files metadata, nothing official here.

--
Arvo
Sigma/Foveon information collection and little gallery:
http://www.stv.ee/~donq/sigma.htm
http://www.stv.ee/~donq/images.htm

Click to expand...

Jeff - Please upgrade your firmware to the latest release and also download the latest version of SPP this should address the issue you are experiencing considerably

Nico,
what makes you think I haven't done that ?

Anyhow - everything is up to date.

Best regards ... jef

nico1974 said:

Jeff - Please upgrade your firmware to the latest release and also download the latest version of SPP this should address the issue you are experiencing considerably

Click to expand...

Sorry just trying to be helpful no need to be defensive will not get you very far with anyone on here - good luck with your endeavours will stay clear trying to help you out in future.

Defensive ? Sorry if my post came over like that - english is not my native language.

jef

JefDeC said:

To show what I mean exactly I have shot the same scene with my SD15 and SD14 - same lens and same settings; each 5 pictures bracketed from -1 till -5 stops

You can see that the SD15 even with -5 stops still has no color in the red traffic light.

The SD14 does MUCH better with color in the highlight from -3 stops but the red has shifted to orange. That is more than 2 stopss better than the SD15.

(I blame the AFE for this as this is exactly the behaviour of clipped amplifiers)

Click to expand...

Wow!

The closest I can get to a SD14 is my DP2 (I believe DP2 does not have AFE). I need to compare it with my SD15 in this situation.
--
Tom Schum

I think you intended.

Was there something about the images that indicated that the update had not been made.

JefDeC said:

Nico,
what makes you think I haven't done that ?

Click to expand...

I shoot tons of night photos, and have had (to me at least) much success.

I don't really do anything special, except to expose for the reflected light, and do a hasty 'zone' type calculation, and go just ridiculous in blocking flare. I try to use a tripod as often as possible, but when not possible, find something that is solid and can be pressed hard against on two axes, and do a remote or at least self-timer shot. I rarely go as high as ISO100. That's it. In stubborn, challenging situations, I'll have to take about 2 or 3 pics, checking each one afterwards and tweaking.

You will need to work with the RAW to discover the best exposure, compressing or teasing highlight or shadows as the situation demands, and in rare cases, getting geometric with the curves (far easier to do with night shots than day shots!).

Light sources will blow out to heck, and you'll often get some starbursts or washed out regions, but with careful colour balancing, it will only add to your image. On the plus side, shots in the same area may have the same white balance, and probably similar exposure too, speeding up the processing time.

Sorry for not providing much guidance, but maybe I can at least provide some hope!