Fuji X Pro 1 or Olympus EM-5? Which one would you get and why?

Not interested in high ISO performance, only base ISO DR. Which Panasonic are destroying by moving away form high tech on board ADC chips and producing cheap, nasty, off board ADC chips with an ISO1600 sweet spot.

Hopefully this trend will reverse, and has not infected the otherwise lovely OM-D. We shall see.

teohyc said:

I've the X-Pro1.

If you don't need the high ISO, go for Micro Four Thirds.

If you don't need the extra bokeh from the larger sensor, go for Micro Four Thirds

Note that in the future, MFT cameras will have great high ISO performance also.

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I disagree there as well. A shutter speed dial simply replaces the mode dial.

With a shutter speed dial and an aperture ring both with an "A" setting you have completely replaced the PASM dial, and you have given the shooter consistency, shutter speed always set on body, aperture always set on lens. Now provide another dial for exp comp and a joystick for focus point and you have the ideal control layout.

"Soft" controls, ie controls that change function according to mode, are a necessary evil caused by lack of space. But add an aperture control, and change the PASM to shutter speed, and you have solved all the issues at once, with no soft controls.

The main reason I urgently wish to get rid of my GH2 is because the exp comp and aperture (the two main controls) live on the same wheel. The result is that I am forever moving one when I wish to move the other.

The minimum of controls that change function please. A control for aperture that is always aperture (ideally on the lens), a control for shutter speed that is always shutter speed (give them both A positions and you have a PASM dial), a control for exp comp that is always exp-comp and a joystick for focus point. All of them except the focus point should be readable from the top of the camera.

T3 said:

MAubrey said:

I'm with Louis. I love manual aperture rings.

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Then the X-Pro1 system is for you! Just don't expect it to make a widespread comeback on other camera systems. The X-Pro1 is a niche retro camera with some niche retro features (like the aperture ring) designed to appeal to people just like you. There's definitely a place for it in the market. However, for plenty of other people, it's more of a nostalgic novelty. A trip down memory lane. I'm sure I would enjoy using the X-Pro1 and its aperture ring for a narrow selection of lenses, but I can't see myself wanting an entire modern lens system with aperture rings. For me, it's a lot like having a dial on the camera with every shutter speed printed on it (like the X-Pro1 has); it looks cool and is fun to use in an old-timey kind of way, but at the end of the day it's unnecessary and superfluous, and a superficial nod to retro design.

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Hey, for the time being we don't know much about either camera.

• we have the specs
• we have SOME test shots typically done with some pre-final firmware and/or hardware
• we have some early reports from testers (most of whom having been paid to contribute as part of micro-marketing, especially on the Olympus side). These reports are not THAT enthusiastic on either camera by the way

So why would anyone rush to buy as yet unproven cameras, that seem like they won't deliver any quantum leap in either useability or IQ?

Michael Kaufman said:

Brian Mosley said:

E-M5 for the workhorse, reliable flexibility, X200 (X100 with Fuji's new sensor) for everything I love about the X100 with firmware polish and superior IQ.

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Hey that's exactly what I decided. Although, I plan to continue using the X100 as well.

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Well, it depends on whether Fuji bring an X100 upgrade with 35mm perspective, or choose another focal length. Actually, I'd like a 60mm f2 equivalent lens for portrait work... same body style & features, just update the sensor, lens, user interface and I'm in.

Cheers

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The presence and various controls does not indicate that aperture rings are coming back. In this I think you are perfectly correct.

However the presence of buttons and switches on lens barrels does somewhat shoot down the argument that aperture rings are an ergonomic problem.

Given that aperture rings are so much bigger than the average button or dial on a lens, then I think they are much more ergonomic than the aforementioned buttons and switches we find on lenses.

Personally I like aperture rings, but I get that some people don't.

Why not just give us an option?
Give us an aperture ring and you can use that or the command dial, either.

I think the answer to that is probably cost and complexity.

I think those same two factors will give us the answer to why aperture rings went away in the first place.

Once it was found that on body aperture controls were usable (not necessarily better) the manufacturers found a place where they could cut complexity and probably cost. Electronic aperture less parts, less assembly, less fiddly jigs, less openings on the lens.

Still people don't seem to have any problem controlling zoom or focus with a barrel ring, these days (well no more than people have a problem with manual focus generally!) so I don't think manual aperture is really that difficult to deal with anyway, if it si offered.

For the record I like manual aperture and focus rings.

Thank you for the roadmap. But again:

it seems to me that it's nothing we don't already have in m4/3. By the time they'll have the basics, we'll have highly exotic lenses - and lower prices, for the older ones..

So where is the advantage for an almost as double price? Therefore back to my initial contention.The advantage, at least we guess, is better DR at high sensitivities. Not my cup of tea, perhaps even a nerd's one.

If the 1 Pro doesn't show better DR at base ISO compred to the E-M5, no avantage for a landscapsit, and a busted wallet

What I really like is the amount oh hardwired controls, but one can live without, especially if it takes them 2 years to fix the AF. Been there, done that with m4/3.

They can keep their 'fleet in being'. But please buy it and report, I'll save a lot of money

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I'm in the market for one of these.
A few months ago it was easy.
Wait for the Fuji - it was the only game in town.

Now it's not nearly so easy.

I think the IQ from the Fuji is likely to be better, based on sensor size and the no AA filter thing. I suspect the hybrid viewfinder will be nice too.

I think the Oly has it over the Fuji everywhere else.

Size, completeness of system, weather sealing, the range of 4/3 lens and last but by no means least price, not to mention the fact that Sigma, Tamron, Voightlander, SLR Magic and others are making 43 lens.

I think longevity wise the 4/3 is a better bet. And I tend to keep things forever when I buy (I'm tight).

I'll be interested too to see if Fuji revise their pricing down. When they announced he XPro1, they were really the only game in town and the most common comparison was against the M9. Now they are not the only game in town and the most common (and I think appropriate) comparison is the OMD.

Be interesting to see if anyone else comes out with a more ASM oriented CSC.

Time will tell but based on published images, specs and pricing info so far the OMD - its just better value and better supported from what I can see.

But I reserve the right ot change my mind once we see production cameras hit the street and the effect of OMD pricing on the XPro1.

Louis_Dobson said:

The minimum of controls that change function please. A control for aperture that is always aperture (ideally on the lens), a control for shutter speed that is always shutter speed (give them both A positions and you have a PASM dial), a control for exp comp that is always exp-comp and a joystick for focus point. All of them except the focus point should be readable from the top of the camera.

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First of all, I totally agree with you about the controls. I handled the Fuji at Focus in Birmingham and the controls were lovely! It was also a lot lighter than I thought it would be.

I loved the fact that the PASM dial was made redundant. I think Oly should have done this with 4/3rds because it would have make more room on the body for other things.

However, your point about a minimum of changeable controls: my confusion is that you liked the E3 changeable controls over of the E1's solid single function ergonomics. That has always puzzled me.

There are several approaches, and I think you are normally better off following one to its logical conclusion.

The advantage of entirely soft controls is you can store settings. Indeed, if anyone did it properly (no one has yet) "settings" as such would become more or less irrelevant. You would store your chosen settings for different circs and call them up.

At the other extreme we have the Fuji - everything has to be set, but it is so simple and quick to set it!

The worst was the D3. Not that it ended up as a bad camera to use, it was very good, but it had every possible advantage - huge amounts of a space, and an infinite budget for controls. The result was still a mish-mash of soft and hard settings that took ages to become instinctive and were not storable.

I haven't used an E1 for four years. I forget what annoyed me now - there was one camera that had the exp comp on the front control and the apertures on the back so I had to poke myself in the eye to change it (I'm left eyed). And you could not switch them. Was that the E1?

rovingtim said:

Louis_Dobson said:

The minimum of controls that change function please. A control for aperture that is always aperture (ideally on the lens), a control for shutter speed that is always shutter speed (give them both A positions and you have a PASM dial), a control for exp comp that is always exp-comp and a joystick for focus point. All of them except the focus point should be readable from the top of the camera.

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First of all, I totally agree with you about the controls. I handled the Fuji at Focus in Birmingham and the controls were lovely! It was also a lot lighter than I thought it would be.

I loved the fact that the PASM dial was made redundant. I think Oly should have done this with 4/3rds because it would have make more room on the body for other things.

However, your point about a minimum of changeable controls: my confusion is that you liked the E3 changeable controls over of the E1's solid single function ergonomics. That has always puzzled me.

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Louis_Dobson said:

I haven't used an E1 for four years. I forget what annoyed me now - there was one camera that had the exp comp on the front control and the apertures on the back so I had to poke myself in the eye to change it (I'm left eyed). And you could not switch them. Was that the E1?

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That is the E1 if you set up that way. You can also reverse it or have both wheels change aperture (in aperture mode) and use the exp comp button.

I agree with you about the mymodes business, but I found there were not enough of them and you couldn't name them so I kept forgetting which mode did what when I hadn't used them for a while. Also, mymode change things I didn't want changed (like ISO).

Eventually, I simply stopped using them.

You need more and you need to name them. I would like ethem to take a snapshot of every setting, including ISO, bracketing, copyright name and everything else! Ideally they need to be exportable to a computer so you can fiddle with them.

My E3 has been fixed after a minor fault (mirror came off the carrier) and all settings have been lost. No way does Eva understand the camera well enough t put them back in, and I think that is most camera's fate.

Not the E1 then. Something would not let you change the controls round and drove me mad...

rovingtim said:

Louis_Dobson said:

I haven't used an E1 for four years. I forget what annoyed me now - there was one camera that had the exp comp on the front control and the apertures on the back so I had to poke myself in the eye to change it (I'm left eyed). And you could not switch them. Was that the E1?

Click to expand...

That is the E1 if you set up that way. You can also reverse it or have both wheels change aperture (in aperture mode) and use the exp comp button.

I agree with you about the mymodes business, but I found there were not enough of them and you couldn't name them so I kept forgetting which mode did what when I hadn't used them for a while. Also, mymode change things I didn't want changed (like ISO).

Eventually, I simply stopped using them.

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I've pre-ordered the Xpro-1.
For me it's all about the viewfinder.
I want a 'rangefinder style' viewfinder.
I know the lenses offered cover the focal lengths I use most often.
I'm happy with the controls layout (even the, gasp, aperture ring) as I
know from past experience that the approach is very functional.
I'm optimistic the Xpro-1 will be a fun tool to use.

In the near term I'll keep my Canon DSLR kit.

If the Olympus turns out to be as good as it seems I'll ponder selling the Canon gear and go with the Olympus on the assumption that the EVF will 'good enough'.
I agree that the Olympus is the far more flexible system and very interesting.
Should also be a fun tool to use.

I think IQ from either camera will be just fine.

amalric said:

I am not sure I'll buy any of the two, so no vested interest here.

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..snip...

amalric said:

You can like a camera as much as you want, but one must be aware of the system’s potential to avoid regrets later.

Am.
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XP1

Sensor
OVF/EVF
Those lenses
Roadmap lenses
Little bigger
Does not have that hump
Various film simulations
OOC Jpeg IQ

I think that about sums it up for me

KISS
I'd buy Olympus E-M5 because it is M43 camera and I already have some M43 lenses
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jtan163 said:

The presence and various controls does not indicate that aperture rings are coming back. In this I think you are perfectly correct.

However the presence of buttons and switches on lens barrels does somewhat shoot down the argument that aperture rings are an ergonomic problem.

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The funny thing is that, in the case of the Oly 12-50 lens, Oly saw the opportunity to put a couple function buttons on this larger lens, and suddenly it's opened up a can of worms with people suddenly thinking that there should be aperture rings, too! But people forget that these buttons are unique to this particular lens. These function buttons aren't appearing on all of Oly's lenses. It's just an extra freebie thrown in for 12-50 buyers. I don't think they ever intended it to create a firestorm among people who love aperture rings!

People also have to accept that there is a difference between function buttons, and an aperture ring. As has already been discussed, plenty of other lenses have additional function buttons and switches on them. But that does not mean that they also have aperture rings, regardless of the ergonomic arguments for or against them.

Louis_Dobson said:

I disagree there as well. A shutter speed dial simply replaces the mode dial.

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Yes, the shutter speed dial replaces the mode dial. But rather using the dial to access other options, like C1, C2, C3 custom settings or Program mode (like Canon does with their mode dials, like on the 7D and 5D MKIII), or any other "modes" that you might want to put on a "mode" dial, the dial is filled mostly with shutter speeds. It's basically an aesthetic nod to the retro theme rather than optimizing the mode dial's functionality. It's the choice of form over function in order to keep with the retro aesthetic theme of the camera.

itairom said:

T3 said:

You have to remember that the Fuji X-Pro1 is heavily driven by retro considerations, both aesthetic and functional. They really want you to feel like you're using an old-school camera from a bygone era. That's definitely part of its appeal. After all, how many camera designs basically said, "We need an old-school self-timer lever on the front of the camera, even though we'll make it serve a different function." Heck, I'm surprised they didn't also put a fake film advance lever on the camera, as well. Maybe we'll get that on the X-Pro2.

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Sometimes retro isn't so bad, particularly when the retro design is easier to use. In my opinion, buttons and dials with dedicated functions and prominent placement are always better. This is one of the reasons I have always preferred Nikon's cameras over Canon's, for example.

Now, is some of Fuji's design a little over the top? Sure... The screw-in cable release, for example. But, personally, I like the aperture ring and dedicated shutter speed and exposure compensation dials.

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I agree, and that's why I say that there's definitely a place for a camera like the X-Pro1 in the market. But I just don't think that things like aperture rings and dedicated shutter speed dials will make a widespread comeback in cameras.

At the high end what is needed is PASM. And aperture rings and shutter dials with an A setting provide that. Other custom settings are best accessed elsewhere in the interface.

T3 said:

Louis_Dobson said:

I disagree there as well. A shutter speed dial simply replaces the mode dial.

Click to expand...

Yes, the shutter speed dial replaces the mode dial. But rather using the dial to access other options, like C1, C2, C3 custom settings or Program mode (like Canon does with their mode dials, like on the 7D and 5D MKIII), or any other "modes" that you might want to put on a "mode" dial, the dial is filled mostly with shutter speeds. It's basically an aesthetic nod to the retro theme rather than optimizing the mode dial's functionality. It's the choice of form over function in order to keep with the retro aesthetic theme of the camera.

Click to expand...

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antoineb said:

So why would anyone rush to buy as yet unproven cameras, that seem like they won't deliver any quantum leap in either useability or IQ?

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First of all, plenty of people go out and buy new cameras, without necessarily waiting for months to years before a camera is "proven".

Secondly, plenty of people buy new cameras for other reasons besides "quantum leaps in either useability or IQ". My first DSLR was the Canon 10D. After that, I bought the 20D, 40D, and 60D. I can't say that each upgrade was a "quantum leap in either useability or IQ". People set themselves up for disappointment if they are expecting earth-shattering improvements with each new camera. I think most people buy new cameras for far more realistic and modest reasons. And in the case of the E-M5, those more realistic and modest reasons include: an integrated high resolution OLED EVF, 5-axis IBIS, magnesium body, weather sealing, excellent physical controls and customization of those controls, improved sensor and image quality, compact form factor, articulating rear touchscreen, modular body options with two add-on grip options, etc.

Louis_Dobson said:

Designed for photographers, with each parameter assigned a button, and excellent DR.

I won't, because it has no lenses to speak of yet, the roadmap doesn't show the lens I need, and I don't trust Fuji not to have messed up in some way.

I'd like to buy the OM-D because it is nicely designed, has high shooting speeds, and good controls (although not as good as the Fuji), and a wide range of lenses (which I already own). I'm slightly dubious because I am worried it might have a cheap sensor biased to high ISO ability at the expense of low ISO DR.
Louis, you don't mind the EVF?

If that's the case I'll buy a D800, which is a lovely camera but, with lenses, fun-spoilingly heavy (maybe get the E-M5 as well ).

LuckysPen said:

As the title says, which of the 2 new cameras will you buy and why?

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