D800e discouraged for amatuers?

sharp as heck though

thanks for posting

HuntingSand said:

BackInTheGame said:

I have read previews that say Nikon discourages amateurs from buying a D800e, and I don't see why they would do that. If anything it is exactly the right version for amateurs. We aren't selling anything, and many of us shoot for ourselves primarily. If we blow one, so what? The detail I have seen in sample images is incredible. What amateur doesn't want that?

It seems to me that pros are the shooters who have to play it safe. They certainly don't want wedding photos ruined, or architectural photos. I'm sure other disciplines also have lots of opportunity for moire.

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You can encounter it anywhere, but it doesn't get recorded very often. It depends on focus points, angle of lighting, surface structuring, etc. With my M9 (which has no AA filter at all) I have not run into too many situations where it occured; when it did, it sometimes didn't matter (rooftop tiles for example). But you also run into situations where it ruins the shot, and there's no easy way out. And since the camera doesn't know whether you're a pro or an amateur, you're getting hit with it all the same.

Here is an example, folks can try their hand at it if they want (sorry, only JPG). It's got the typical wavey pattern which affects the actual surface texture, plus the color distortion.



Thomas
=====================================
Tibetan image gallery: http://hahn.zenfolio.com/Tibet_86
=====================================

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zzapamiga said:

Leonard Shepherd said:

BackInTheGame said:

I have read previews that say Nikon discourages amateurs from buying a D800e,

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Nikon forecast 800e sales will be about 10% of 800 sales - and very much a niche product for advanced photographers - whether amateur or pro.

All Nikon seem to be doing is restricting sales of a niche product to outlets specialising in the needs of a niche group of photographers.
--
Leonard Shepherd

Photography could be easier - if cameras and lenses came with an increase in skill button.

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I believe the response and warning by Nikon is due to the fact that a lot more than 10% of preorders are for the D800E. I would estimate over 30%. In fact when reviews come in showing that moiré is only a rare occurrence and in most cases reparable within Adobe Lightroom that the ratio of D800E's sold will rise to over 50%.

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some questions need to be answered before I buy anything

--how will lightroom handle -- moire and speed also
--how high iso can we go with useable shots.
--what 50 mm to use and what it looks like

and is there something special about the d800e + 50mm setup that other setups like a 5diii do not give. We'll see...

MAC said:

zzapamiga wrote:

and is there something special about the d800e + 50mm setup that other setups like a 5diii do not give. We'll see...

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That is a good question. I still use a 50mm 1.4D on my D700 for family photos because it is small and sharp. I stay pretty much between f2.8 and f5.6, occasionally f8. I am also anxious to use my 85mm 1.8D on the new camera. For functions like recitals I will want to try my 70-200. I will keep my D700, so a D800e is not such a great risk. For BIF and wildlife shooting handheld I really believe the D800e will give people like me just that little bit extra that will sometimes make us say, "Wow!" I think it will be a blast. If not, I bet people would line up to buy it from me.

Yep, but in over 40 years, I can't remember one shot of a tightly patterned shirt in any of my negatives ;-). I played around with the Foveon when it first came out - the SD9.

Sure you could find aliasing artifacts - not color but luminance. It happened every once in a while but it was more of an "academic" issue and had minimal impact images. Although the SD9 had fairly low resolution compared to today and was the only ASP-C sensor out there at the time without an anti-aliasing filter, I would not say aliasing was an issue with the camera.

lnbolch said:

Truman Prevatt said:

Since I am never going to see in my lifetime a high end digital camera devoted to black and white and since I have absolutely no interest in color images - Moire false color is not an issue. The D800E is the camera I have been waiting for. I can put my 120 film cameras aside along with chemical developers and stop having to deal with repairing dust on scanned negatives.

Thank you Nikon for the warning, but thank you for the D800E. It sounds like the camera I have been waiting for.

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While monochrome hides the false colour it amplifies moiré patterns. They come through splendidly sharp and clear. There are many examples to be seen with a web search. For example:



Colour really is not a factor in this one. Try to eliminate the moiré while retaining any detail. Admittedly, this is an extreme example.

--
larry!
http://www.larry-bolch.com/

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--
Truman
http://www.pbase.com/tprevatt

Preliminary tests suggest that the D800 and D800E both use line skipping to scale the sensor output down to 1080p, just like the 5DMkII. Line skipping results in such a gross loss of resolution that the relatively subtle effect of the AA filter will be overwhelmed. Both cameras are going to have equal amount of color moire in their video.

Robin Casady said:

marike6 said:

The only reason I ordered a D800 and not a D800E is video. I had a 5D Mk II and have a GH2 that I use because I currently learning how to shoot and edit video. As much as even the best HDSLR cameras struggle with moire and aliasing, the absence of an AA-Filter on the D800E is not going to be a good thing for video.

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There will probably be very little difference between the D800 and D800E video. The AA filter on the D800 is not going to help with video because it doesn't use every pixel.

http://techcrunch.com/2008/12/02/for-image-quality-buffs-dslr-video-is-off-the-table/
--
Robin Casady
http://www.robincasady.com/Photo/index.html

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--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/noirist/

Is it really applicable here to compare the frequency of Foveon aliasing to Bayer sensor aliasing?

Noirist said:

Preliminary tests suggest that the D800 and D800E both use line skipping to scale the sensor output down to 1080p, just like the 5DMkII. Line skipping results in such a gross loss of resolution that the relatively subtle effect of the AA filter will be overwhelmed. Both cameras are going to have equal amount of color moire in their video.

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So your theory is "relatively subtle effect of the AA filter will be overwhelmed" And WITHOUT an AA-filter. You think moire at 1080P will magically disappear?

The fact is here is no possible way you can know that without testing them and your theory is just speculation. All I know is the area that traditionally DSLRs have struggled with moire, and several expert videographers like Philip Bloom in his D800 preview on philipbloom.net have very clearly warned against choosing the D800E for video.

Even with the 5D Mk II, there are several "extra" AA filters on the market that you can place over the sensor to further reduce moire, that's how big of a problem many consider moire. Certainly a DSLR with no AA-filter will potentially have a significantly harder time than one with an AA-filter. I know from using a 5D Mk II for some time, moire rears it's ugly head in video more than you think. And when it does, it's not pretty or easy to deal with in post. If video is your primary application, choose the D800E over the D800 at your own peril.

I am strictly a amateur and a unskilled one at that , and all of this "E"- V - plaine D-800 has me confused.

A lot of folks who have the D-700 say it has great quality images, if that's the case would it be even better as a "D-700 E"?

Could the average eye really discern very much difference if the aa filter was removed from a D-700?

If the above is so the D-800 should be vastly improved over the D-700 and I ask, for me what advantage is the E version?

I can afford either one so cost is not a factor, I am an early pre-order D-800 and would not like to start over again in the line.

I tend to be one of those people who think "if it costs more it must be better", but this time I'm not so sure.
--
Jack

marike6 said:

Noirist said:

Preliminary tests suggest that the D800 and D800E both use line skipping to scale the sensor output down to 1080p, just like the 5DMkII. Line skipping results in such a gross loss of resolution that the relatively subtle effect of the AA filter will be overwhelmed. Both cameras are going to have equal amount of color moire in their video.

Click to expand...

So your theory is "relatively subtle effect of the AA filter will be overwhelmed" And WITHOUT an AA-filter. You think moire at 1080P will magically disappear?

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Where does he say moire will magically disappear? He doesn't. He says moire will be equal on the D800 and D800E. They with BOTH have moire.

marike6 said:

The fact is here is no possible way you can know that without testing them and your theory is just speculation. All I know is the area that traditionally DSLRs have struggled with moire, and several expert videographers like Philip Bloom in his D800 preview on philipbloom.net have very clearly warned against choosing the D800E for video.

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And Phillip is just speculating.

Here is a counter statement:

"I also asked [Nikon] about the impact of the D800E's filter system on movies but was assured there was none - the actual down-sampling of the full sensor resolution to a video frame is the bigger issue."

marike6 said:

Even with the 5D Mk II, there are several "extra" AA filters on the market that you can place over the sensor to further reduce moire, that's how big of a problem many consider moire.

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Those filters exist because the AA filters for still photography are designed for use with every photosite in the sensor. When you start skipping photosites you change the grid pattern, and the AA filter no longer has any effect. If a filter blurs the image over four photosites it will have no effect if you line skip and take every other photosite on a line.

http://techcrunch.com/2008/12/02/for-image-quality-buffs-dslr-video-is-off-the-table/

marike6 said:

Certainly a DSLR with no AA-filter will potentially have a significantly harder time than one with an AA-filter.

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You are speculating.

marike6 said:

I know from using a 5D Mk II for some time, moire rears it's ugly head in video more than you think. And when it does, it's not pretty or easy to deal with in post.

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Which is a clear indication that the AA filter is not working for video.

marike6 said:

If video is your primary application, choose the D800E over the D800 at your own peril.

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You are in peril with either.
--
Robin Casady
http://www.robincasady.com/Photo/index.html

From what I read eliminating the AA is not as viable for sensors with larger photo sites (pixels). It is the small size and quantity of the D800 pixels which led to this. One reviewer said he expects very few problems with moire from the D800e.

Like me this seems to be a hobby for you, and who doesn't want more bang from their hobby? Whether your photos reach a 90% level of perfection or just 40%, a gain is a gain. If I can achieve a 3% gain in sharpness of bird photos to say 43%, that's big. And $300 is not going to scare off many people. In my case, the people I contract to have plenty of work, so I am going to work some weekends to pay for it (started this morning). If I didn't want the camera I would be off somewhere just messing around. In fact, I need to get back to work right now.

Cheers

roy

Everyone who ordered a D800E from B&H in the first 20 minutes of pre-ordering should cancel their order and get the D800.

That way I will move up in the line.

I shoot mostly landscapes. I rarely shoot people.

Medium format cameras have no AA filter. I'd be shooting medium format, if I could afford it.
--
Robin Casady
http://www.robincasady.com/Photo/index.html

Aliasing is a function of the Nyquist spatial frequency. For the SD9 sensor each color was approximately 3.3 MP. One could estimate the Nyquist spatial frequency for each channel in a Bayer from the pixel density. A Bayer has different Nyquist spatial frequencies for R/B and Green which is the cause of the color aliasing. The Foveon has the same Nyquist spatial frequency per channel - it's aliasing appears as luminous instead of color.

Aliasing is aliasing - independent of sensor. If you find yourself taking images with areas of high frequency periodic structured patterned, e.g., a multi-colored silk dress with large areas of red and blue you would probably see aliasing with a D800 sans AA filter.

You would probably also see aliasing with a Sigma SD1 - although it would not appear as color aliasing and a lot of the medium format backs. If that is the type of images you find yourself shooting, then you probably need an AA filter.

eurycea said:

Is it really applicable here to compare the frequency of Foveon aliasing to Bayer sensor aliasing?

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--
Truman
http://www.pbase.com/tprevatt

jack oconnor said:

I am strictly a amateur and a unskilled one at that , and all of this "E"- V - plaine D-800 has me confused.

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Look at the difference between the D800 and D800E samples of the rocks on this page:
http://imaging.nikon.com/lineup/dslr/d800/features01.htm

The difference between the D800 and D800E are pretty subtle. You have to be looking to getting the nth degree of IQ out of the camera to want the D800E. I expect an unskilled amateur to be more than happy with the D800.

jack oconnor said:

A lot of folks who have the D-700 say it has great quality images, if that's the case would it be even better as a "D-700 E"?

Could the average eye really discern very much difference if the aa filter was removed from a D-700?

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I don't know. Never seen an image from a D700 with the AA filter removed.

jack oconnor said:

If the above is so the D-800 should be vastly improved over the D-700 and I ask, for me what advantage is the E version?

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The resolution of the D800 is vastly improved over the D700. The D800E is for critical shooters who are trying to get the very most detail and clarity out of landscapes and controlled studio shots. It is for folk who are used to shooting medium format digital, or 4x5 and 8x10 film.

jack oconnor said:

I can afford either one so cost is not a factor, I am an early pre-order D-800 and would not like to start over again in the line.

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I think the D800 will be fine.

jack oconnor said:

I tend to be one of those people who think "if it costs more it must be better", but this time I'm not so sure.

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"Better" is relative to what you want to do with it. For the urban shooter and candid people shooter, the D800 is probably a "better" camera.
--
Robin Casady
http://www.robincasady.com/Photo/index.html

I saw what appeared to be a lot of aliasing effect going on in the photo posted above by HuntingSand from his Leica. I couldn't tell for sure if it was true aliasing or just an artifact of looking at it on the web at smaller resolution.

But what I saw is bad aliasing in the tree branches. So even as a landscape photographer I'd be concerned. 75% of my shooting is outdoors, nature, travel, etc... I was going to play it safe and get the plain D800 for the 25% of my shots that are people and have fabric patterns. After seeing that Leica sample I'm thinking the D800 no E is also not a bad choice for landscape work.
--
Mike Dawson

For the D800E I think one needs to have the best Nikon glass and a good tripod. For the kind of photography most amateurs do the D800 is more than enough overkill.

Douglas Film

Truman Prevatt said:

Yep, but in over 40 years, I can't remember one shot of a tightly patterned shirt in any of my negatives ;-). I played around with the Foveon when it first came out - the SD9.

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And of neither I nor anyone else has. Film is analogue, and the grains of silver in the emulsion are about as random as it gets. There should not be a great chance of moire with the Foveon sensor, while its photosites are anything but random, it does take all colour readings at the same spot for each pixel.

The Bayer mosaic is by its very design with 2×2 cells in an ever repeating pattern, particularly susceptible to moire, when a pattern of nearly the same frequency is projected upon it without a filter to blur it. Fujifilm will be delivering a camera with a 6×6 grid using a pseudo-random colour filter array that is supposed to emulate the randomness of colour film, and thus has no AA filter. I will be able to tell you how effective this is in a month or so.

To get the severe moire shown in the previous post, would require the "perfect storm", so to speak. Exactly the right subject, distance, focal length, focus, etc. If one took a D800E out to shoot some moire examples, one might end up highly frustrated, since the "perfect storm" would be difficult to set up. Yet when doing casual photography with it, a small percent of shots will be ruined by it unless the shooter is always aware and avoids subjects that will cause it.

--
larry!
http://www.larry-bolch.com/

michaeladawson said:

I saw what appeared to be a lot of aliasing effect going on in the photo posted above by HuntingSand from his Leica. I couldn't tell for sure if it was true aliasing or just an artifact of looking at it on the web at smaller resolution.

But what I saw is bad aliasing in the tree branches. So even as a landscape photographer I'd be concerned. 75% of my shooting is outdoors, nature, travel, etc... I was going to play it safe and get the plain D800 for the 25% of my shots that are people and have fabric patterns. After seeing that Leica sample I'm thinking the D800 no E is also not a bad choice for landscape work.

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If you are ahead of me in the B&H queue I wll agree with you. Cancel your D800E order.

If you aren't ahead of me, I have to ask, how large do you plan to print where you think aliasing on a 36 MP image is going to show? The HuntingSand image was 12 MP.
--
Robin Casady
http://www.robincasady.com/Photo/index.html

Thanks Robin,

I think I have been reading the comments on this forum , and second guessing too much.

I'll stick with the d-800 and spend several years learning how to use it.

I'll spend the $ I save on memory sticks.
--
Jack

Robin Casady said:

michaeladawson said:

I saw what appeared to be a lot of aliasing effect going on in the photo posted above by HuntingSand from his Leica. I couldn't tell for sure if it was true aliasing or just an artifact of looking at it on the web at smaller resolution.

But what I saw is bad aliasing in the tree branches. So even as a landscape photographer I'd be concerned. 75% of my shooting is outdoors, nature, travel, etc... I was going to play it safe and get the plain D800 for the 25% of my shots that are people and have fabric patterns. After seeing that Leica sample I'm thinking the D800 no E is also not a bad choice for landscape work.

Click to expand...

If you are ahead of me in the B&H queue I wll agree with you. Cancel your D800E order.

If you aren't ahead of me, I have to ask, how large do you plan to print where you think aliasing on a 36 MP image is going to show? The HuntingSand image was 12 MP.

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Be careful Robin. You may convince me to stay in line ahead of you at B&H.

In answer to your question... I want to be able to print at 300 or 360 dpi on my Epson printers. 13x19 or 16x24. In truth, I don't know where aliasing is going to show.

Robin Casady said:

--
Robin Casady
http://www.robincasady.com/Photo/index.html

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--
Mike Dawson

Robin Casady said:

Everyone who ordered a D800E from B&H in the first 20 minutes of pre-ordering should cancel their order and get the D800.

That way I will move up in the line.

I shoot mostly landscapes. I rarely shoot people.

Medium format cameras have no AA filter. I'd be shooting medium format, if I could afford it.

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Medium format cameras have no AA filters primarily because they're very expensive at large sizes and small quantities. They were an option with early models, and people didn't buy them because of the cost. So they've left them off since.

Robin Casady said:

--
Robin Casady
http://www.robincasady.com/Photo/index.html

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--
http://models.stevemelvin.com