D800e discouraged for amatuers?

I have read previews that say Nikon discourages amateurs from buying a D800e, and I don't see why they would do that. If anything it is exactly the right version for amateurs. We aren't selling anything, and many of us shoot for ourselves primarily. If we blow one, so what? The detail I have seen in sample images is incredible. What amateur doesn't want that?

It seems to me that pros are the shooters who have to play it safe. They certainly don't want wedding photos ruined, or architectural photos. I'm sure other disciplines also have lots of opportunity for moire.

While it is true amateur photography covers a myriad of genres, I would think anyone who likes to photograph wildlife, sports and landscapes would be all over the "e" version. I wonder if Nikon will build enough of them.

BackInTheGame said:

I have read previews that say Nikon discourages amateurs from buying a D800e, and I don't see why they would do that.

Click to expand...

I get the impression that they want the D800E to go to photographers who know what to expect from it. Doesn't matter if they are pros or amateurs. They don't want it to go to inexperienced shooters who will be surprised by moiré.

They have also been careful to warn customers that getting the most out of D800 resolution may require more careful technique than they are used to.

Essentially, Nikon seems to be worried that naive photographers are going to blame the camera when they don't achieve the results they expect. So, they are trying to do some education ahead of time.
--
Robin Casady
http://www.robincasady.com/Photo/index.html

The differences are minimal, the advantages are least likely to be achieved by all but the most meticulous of shooters, the disadvantage (moire) can be tough on an image (and requires careful post work--again, not really oriented towards amateurs), etc.

The obvious question is how "amateur" is defined. Nikon has to use some word. And while it's not always fair or true to say "pros know more and have better technique," it's not an entirely unfair characterization either. But to the point, regardless of whether it is vocational or recreational use, people here are doing a fantastic job of overstating the advantages and understating what will be required to take full advantage.

Yes, I think some people might be disappointed. For me, if I get one (in my opinion) killer shot a month I will be happy. After shooting with the D700 for some time I bought a D7000, and it was a rude awakening. It required more effort to get something I really liked, but after a few months of self loathing and working at it I was happy with the camera. It never replaced the D700 for me, which is why I use that most times. I wonder if my preference is more about FX than actual IQ. I just like full frame, and I do shoot a lot indoors with no flash.

I think the D800e is going to be like the D7000 in some respects. It will be more work, but that is part of the enjoyment I get from this hobby. If I don't like the camera Nikon won't hear a peep out of me. I will sell it. But I bet I will like it. A simple photo of some ground cover on extremetech was stunning, and it was something I can look at often. I don't need much.

Robin Casady said:

BackInTheGame said:

I have read previews that say Nikon discourages amateurs from buying a D800e, and I don't see why they would do that.

Click to expand...

I get the impression that they want the D800E to go to photographers who know what to expect from it. Doesn't matter if they are pros or amateurs. They don't want it to go to inexperienced shooters who will be surprised by moiré.

They have also been careful to warn customers that getting the most out of D800 resolution may require more careful technique than they are used to.

Essentially, Nikon seems to be worried that naive photographers are going to blame the camera when they don't achieve the results they expect. So, they are trying to do some education ahead of time.
--
Robin Casady
http://www.robincasady.com/Photo/index.html

Click to expand...

You know, after all the caution flags that have gone up, a person is going to have to get pretty humble to complain about the camera, I mean head hanging "please forgive me for buying this" humble. Nikon is recommending nothing but the most expensive pro lenses and recommending a tripod, if one is not as lock-down steady as a rock. So if we don't buy into that, and I don't, we don't have much to say if we come up short.

Having two versions of the D800 adds considerably to Nikon's costs. There's no way they eat that cost unless there is a real moire issue in the D800E, yet a real resolution benefit when there is no moire.

In not wanting to sell the D800E to "amateurs" they just want to make sure no one is disappointed. The D800E is intended for people who know how to recognize a moire situation before the shot, not those who expect to somehow post-process it away.

In other words, Nikon's willingness to announce two versions of the D800 is a loud & clear warning that the moire issues are real, not theoretical.

Had Nikon known Canon was not going to release a high resolution competitor to the D800 I doubt the D800E would have been announced.

You sound like a good candidate for one. I'm betting that it will work out to be an incredible landscape camera. I'm trying to imagine a stitched, mural-sized print from one.

I think that's right. Some comments from MF photographers suggest that one can learn to recognize situations and adjust, that it isn't such a great problem. I don't think automatically stopping down to get diffraction or Cap Rock filters are the right answer. Might as well buy the regular D800.

I'm perhaps a slow learner, but I want to try the "recognize and adjust" approach. Software will definitely get better, but no way it will ever clean up some of the messes I've seen in web samples.

BackInTheGame said:

I have read previews that say Nikon discourages amateurs from buying a D800e, and I don't see why they would do that. If anything it is exactly the right version for amateurs. We aren't selling anything, and many of us shoot for ourselves primarily. If we blow one, so what? The detail I have seen in sample images is incredible. What amateur doesn't want that?

It seems to me that pros are the shooters who have to play it safe. They certainly don't want wedding photos ruined, or architectural photos. I'm sure other disciplines also have lots of opportunity for moire.

While it is true amateur photography covers a myriad of genres, I would think anyone who likes to photograph wildlife, sports and landscapes would be all over the "e" version. I wonder if Nikon will build enough of them.

Click to expand...

Moire, false color is real pain and hard to remove. inexperience shooter will be pis*ed if they find out that false color and too much moire on their photos. It's good to have a warning, Nikon don't ban you from getting one but they should let user know pros and cons of each camera so that they have to made their own decision base on what they already known.

They're being overcautious because they know dullards and strong wills go together like fat boys and happy meals.

If the d800 was exclusively marketed to the pro sector they wouldn't be as patronizing. Honestly, I admire their restraint.

James Van Artsdalen said:

Having two versions of the D800 adds considerably to Nikon's costs. There's no way they eat that cost unless there is a real moire issue in the D800E, yet a real resolution benefit when there is no moire.

Click to expand...

I agree. The difference between D800 and D800e in under the right (or wrong...) circumstances must be quite pronounced, or Nikon would not bother having both of them in the linuep.

I would rather have a d800

I think the d800E is better for the people who really want to get the most of it. Studio/landscape shooters with lots of time and patience. But the benefits are small, so it's more of a pain for those of us who use the camera "normally".

As Nikon said, the people who the d800E is targeted at already know about moire, how to avoid it and how to remove it. And those people are already used to dealing with it. If you aren't one of those people, it probably isn't targeted at you. I know I'm not one.

There are more cameras around with no AA filter now. Most medium format digital cams have no AA filter. I shoot landscapes and natural stuff way more often. I am outdoors mostly, so for me, this is perfect. You have to judge for yourself about how much moire will affect your work. There must be some good software out there by now to deal with it if it occurs. Nikon says they have something in their software.

BackInTheGame said:

I have read previews that say Nikon discourages amateurs from buying a D800e, and I don't see why they would do that. If anything it is exactly the right version for amateurs.

Click to expand...

From a Nikon business perspective I can see exactly why Nikon is discouraging some segment of their customer base from purchasing the D800E. There are both professionals and amateurs that would know exactly what they are buying with the D800E and that is cool. There might be a small number of professionals that don't know what they are getting into with the D800E yet that populations is probably quites small. IMHO the customer segment that Nikon is concerned about is the amateur that does not know what they are getting in to. It is well known there are many camera bodies sold to amateurs that buy a high end body that they may not know the techniques to get the best out of the camera. That is not a problem as long as there are those that can and as long as this amateur can get reasonable good images on a reliable basis. That last part is the rub. With the D800E that amateur is much more likely to get Moiré and be dissatisfied or worse yet be embarrassed (by others) that they don't know how to handle this camera. Dissatisfied customers incorrectly blaming the camera can do just about as much damage as a customer with valid complaints. Those complaints can unfortunately rub off on the whole line including the D800. There will be plenty of pixel peepers that take 100% views and note all of the anomalies that pop up (besides color/luminosity striations) that will rarely be visible in the standard prints. This is not a marketing issue with which Nikon wants to deal. IMHO the D800E was not meant to be the main profit maker, more like that top of the line niche option for the demanding few and to be able to claim the high ground. Unfortunately, IMHO Nikon underestimated the buyers mindset around resolution. IMHO the mindset is simiar to horsepower for cars. Often bought because it has it rather than if you use it. Nikon would have been better off pricing the D800E considerably higher to achieve a much higher D800 to D800E sale ratio. I would love to be a fly on the wall in their sales/marketing department and listen to the reactions of the likely issues that they will see. How do you say "Oh S*&t" in Japanese

--
John Wheeler

I was originally on the D800 list at my dealer. They moved me to the same time and date I signed on from the D800 to the D800e list. I was number 50 for the D800, and I am now number 11 for the D800e. That is about 5 to 1 for the regular camera. I don't know what Nikon anticipated, and I'm not sure if my dealer has a typical ratio. But Nikon has given themselves the additional task of trying to balance production correctly. On the other hand I imagine it will be a long time before either model is a stock item anywhere.

Since I am never going to see in my lifetime a high end digital camera devoted to black and white and since I have absolutely no interest in color images - Moire false color is not an issue. The D800E is the camera I have been waiting for. I can put my 120 film cameras aside along with chemical developers and stop having to deal with repairing dust on scanned negatives.

Thank you Nikon for the warning, but thank you for the D800E. It sounds like the camera I have been waiting for.

Truman

thanhuy said:

Moire, false color is real pain and hard to remove. inexperience shooter will be pis*ed if they find out that false color and too much moire on their photos. It's good to have a warning, Nikon don't ban you from getting one but they should let user know pros and cons of each camera so that they have to made their own decision base on what they already known.

Click to expand...

--
Truman
http://www.pbase.com/tprevatt

Exactly !!! Well said

nikon has said they anticipate the "e" will account for 10% of total d800 sales.

BackInTheGame said:

That is about 5 to 1 for the regular camera. I don't know what Nikon anticipated, and I'm not sure if my dealer has a typical ratio..

Click to expand...

The only reason I ordered a D800 and not a D800E is video. I had a 5D Mk II and have a GH2 that I use because I currently learning how to shoot and edit video. As much as even the best HDSLR cameras struggle with moire and aliasing, the absence of an AA-Filter on the D800E is not going to be a good thing for video.

For stills I feel people may be unnecessarily predicting problems that should only exist in certain situations. MF cameras almost all do not have AA-Filters and I've never heard of it being a big deal for those cameras. The other thing is that even cameras that DO have AA-filters produce moire under certain situations.

Other then that, the Leica m9 and Ricoh Gxr m-mount are the only 135mm format cameras in production that lack an AA