Curious: Do people who claim to not need more megapixels also buy cheap lenses?

BadBeta

Forum Enthusiast
Messages
454
Reaction score
1
It seems to me that these is a curious thing going on here. Lots of people here say they have mega pixels enough, yet at the same time they seem to be very concerned about having the latest and greatest optics and the resolution power of that.

Considering that you can get to the same effective level of picture resolution with a high res camera and second tier optics for less cash than a low res camera and lots of expensive optics it seems to be some inconsistencies floating around?

(I do get it for people who photograph in low light though).
 
It seems to me that these is a curious thing going on here. Lots of people here say they have mega pixels enough, yet at the same time they seem to be very concerned about having the latest and greatest optics and the resolution power of that.

Considering that you can get to the same effective level of picture resolution with a high res camera and second tier optics for less cash than a low res camera and lots of expensive optics it seems to be some inconsistencies floating around?

(I do get it for people who photograph in low light though).
I feel funny reading your logic...
 
Nothing funny about it - I'm genuinely curious. Some seem to think that more megapixels somehow doesn't translate into higher effective picture resolution, yet at the same time advocates buying very expense optics to have relatively small resolution advances. A higher resolution camera would indeed benefit all their optics.

So I'm wondering if these are the same people, or whether the ones that doesn't need higher resolution sensors also buys lesser optics from the same core argument?
 
I don't follow you either. every lens produces an image, and either the sensor is oversampling bad data, or undersampling good data. A 36 megapixel sensor is probably over sampling most lenses, especially zoom lenses. for that matter, a 24 megapixel sensor is probably oversampling most zoom lenses and most primes that aren't stopped down.

I think that is the point of the new 24 and 28mm, lenses that are as good as the new sensors.
 
It seems to me that these is a curious thing going on here. Lots of people here say they have mega pixels enough, yet at the same time they seem to be very concerned about having the latest and greatest optics and the resolution power of that.

Considering that you can get to the same effective level of picture resolution with a high res camera and second tier optics for less cash than a low res camera and lots of expensive optics it seems to be some inconsistencies floating around?

(I do get it for people who photograph in low light though).
I think I understand your statement, but I'm not sure it is correct. I tend to believe that bad optics spoil any image, high rez or low. I'm sure there is some balance between megapixels and optical resolution, but I tend to think that a bad lens will spoil any image--kind of like bad speakers on an expensive sound system will ruin any music (well, maybe not country western and rap ;) ).

That's my theory. Invest in quality optics first.
 
I don't follow you either. every lens produces an image, and either the sensor is oversampling bad data, or undersampling good data. A 36 megapixel sensor is probably over sampling most lenses, especially zoom lenses. for that matter, a 24 megapixel sensor is probably oversampling most zoom lenses and most primes that aren't stopped down.
Now why would you think that a sensor is oversampling bad data? The reality is that an increase in megapixels will, for all but the very worst lenses, increase real picture resolution. We are very far from any optical limitation on the lenses.

Take the anti-aliasing filter as an example. It is not there because the sensors have too high resolutions; it is there because they are too low res. (And the lens resolution needs to be blurred).

Not too mention small point and shoots. If the same sensor pixel size on them were applied to a full frame sensor we would be talking sensors with 200-400 megapixels. (And they do have optics too).

And those are real quality enhancing pixels too: I did a test once with my Ricoh GRIII snapshot and my Canon 5D II, comparing the Ricoh image with the part of the Canon image from an equal size area. Given that the Canon sensor is about 22 times larger that is a 10 megapixel Ricoh image versus a 1 megapixel Canon image. The detail level and quality of the Ricoh is way higher - even after downsampling to 1 megapixel. So there is still a long way to go before optics are the limit.
 
The audio analog is a good one. To me it seems that getting a medium level stereo, and then investing heavily in amazing speakers, will at the very best still only get you to the level of that medium level stereo. A more balanced spending might get you lesser speakers but better sound overall.

(And given that most people have lots of optics, if would make sense to me to match it to something maximizing their potential for a higher one time cost).
 
It seems to me that these is a curious thing going on here. Lots of people here say they have mega pixels enough, yet at the same time they seem to be very concerned about having the latest and greatest optics and the resolution power of that.

Considering that you can get to the same effective level of picture resolution with a high res camera and second tier optics for less cash than a low res camera and lots of expensive optics it seems to be some inconsistencies floating around?

(I do get it for people who photograph in low light though).
I've seen mediocre optics compromise images down to the 6mp level (10D) so I'm not sure your logic applies.

I'm one of the people in the camp of "enough is enough," but I invest in good glass, when I'm able. Partly because I do shoot in low light, but also because I've seen what bad glass can do on a camera.

And 20-24 mp isn't "low res," it's "lower res." Right now, there is one camera on the marked with more than 24mp, and that's the Nikon D800. The Sony A800/900 have 24 and one of their crops does, too, IIRC, the 5dmkII has 21 and the mkIII has 22. Every other camera on the market today has less than that including the pro level cameras from both Canon and Nikon. Some have higher densities, like the Canon 7D, but not as many pixels.
--
Skip M
http://www.shadowcatcherimagery.com
http://www.pbase.com/skipm
http://skipm.smugmug.com/
http://skipmiddletonglamourshooter.blogspot.com/
'Living in the heart of a dream, in the Promised Land!'
John Stewart
 
Now why would you think that a sensor is oversampling bad data? The reality is that an increase in megapixels will, for all but the very worst lenses, increase real picture resolution. We are very far from any optical limitation on the lenses.
This isn't really true at all. I use a modest resolution (24MP) D3X and many of my lenses (still the best Nikon makes at each focal length) are utterly incapable of rendering an image that approaches sharpness at the pixel level ... while some of the newest can, when properly stopped down.

Notice how most of Nikon's example pictures for the D800 are shot at f/8? One at f/10 and another at f/4.5 (which is obviously soft by the way), and they used the best lenses they have. Must be fun if images shot far from f/8 can't be used to demonstrate the capability of the camera without embarrassment to the manufacturer, huh? A nice, 2700€ fixed aperture camera. Cool.
Take the anti-aliasing filter as an example. It is not there because the sensors have too high resolutions; it is there because they are too low res. (And the lens resolution needs to be blurred).
No. The image projected by the image from some lenses at some apertures , some distances, and at the very center of the image circle needs to be blurred because it contains too high frequencies (these would affect very small parts of the image because most will be out of focus). But if you shoot wide open or stopped down there is no such problem. A 100MP sensor would produce an image with very little more information than a 24MP sensor when you don't use optimal aperture, optimal technique, optimal (manual live view) focus and a great lens. If your subject moves you'll have to use an extremely high shutter speed to make the extra pixels useful. What it would do is make 175MB raw files which would convert into 600MB TIFFs and if you add say, three layers you get a 1.8 GB image in the memory of the image editor, which typically requires three times that, to actually run, which is 5.4 GB just to open and edit one image. Sounds like fun? Wait until you have to write that data after editing into a file over a USB 2.0 connection. Talk about costly imaging.

Also remember that the depth of field gets more and more shallow and pixel-level noise more and more obvious when you start demanding sharpness at the pixel level with those high resolution sensors. There is an ever narrowing opportunitiy to actually make good of those pixels. But people will find out soon enough as they try to put those cameras to good use.

(By the way I am not saying that the image gets worse as you increase sensor MTF. Obviously not, except at the highest ISO. But what happens is that the improvements are so insignificant that no one really cares. That's why Canon made a 22MP camera - they made 40MP sensors quite some time ago but didn't bring them to market because they didn't think the market demand exists.)
And those are real quality enhancing pixels too: I did a test once with my Ricoh GRIII snapshot and my Canon 5D II, comparing the Ricoh image with the part of the Canon image from an equal size area. Given that the Canon sensor is about 22 times larger that is a 10 megapixel Ricoh image versus a 1 megapixel Canon image. The detail level and quality of the Ricoh is way higher - even after downsampling to 1 megapixel. So there is still a long way to go before optics are the limit.
Yes, in a tiny patch of image at the very center of a lens optimized to image a tiny image circle which is devoid of optical aberrations because it's at the very center. If you had mounted your Canon lens on the Ricoh camera and shifted it off center the picture would have been blurred.
 
Even with 12MP sensors great lenses separate themselves by the cleanness of the image, beautiful bokeh, colours, high sharpness, low distortion, low vignetting, faster focus, better build quality etc. It doesn't take a high resolution sensor to make good use of a great lens, nor does a high resolution sensor make magic out of a mediocre lens. It'll just be a little less mediocre, but still steadily in its own class.
 
You know, I was thinking about the same thing..

I can tell you one thing, my favorite prime the 15mm fish eye, at F4-5.6, I can tell that is it my 5DII that is the limiting factor, that lens is sharp in the middle.. VERY VERY...

I had a 1.8 85MM. Same thing, at F5.6 - 8, it was the camera that was the limiting factor.. The people who are going to Nikon for the D800 esp the E version, better gets the BEST zooms, and some primes, because it will be pointless.

I keep hearing people talk about how the 7D has 18MP and only used part of the lens, and so on.. Well, people, the 7D uses the BEST part of any lens.. the Center..

On a 7D my 24-105F looks DEAD SHARP.. But on my 5D, 24mm looks very soft at the edges..
It seems to me that these is a curious thing going on here. Lots of people here say they have mega pixels enough, yet at the same time they seem to be very concerned about having the latest and greatest optics and the resolution power of that.

Considering that you can get to the same effective level of picture resolution with a high res camera and second tier optics for less cash than a low res camera and lots of expensive optics it seems to be some inconsistencies floating around?

(I do get it for people who photograph in low light though).
 
Probably the same for video. After all, the final output is far less than just about any sensor from the past few years unless you are printing larger than 11x14 or so. What other usage needs 18 or 22 mpixels?

But if a lens has uneven sharpness, which I consider far more noticeable than overall sharpness, you can see this at most sizes. Same for distortion, vignetting, CA and flare. Some may say color and micro contrast. I am not sure micro contrast shows at small sizes and color can be fixed in post processing.

Then there is depth of field and bokoh and if you do telephoto action, a good lens is absolutely required regardless of output size. The quality of the af tracking, IS fast aperture and focal length all add up to a pricey lens.

--

What I need most is to improve the content of my images. But I like my content and have not been able to figure out what people would prefer.

http://ben-egbert.smugmug.com/

Ben
 
Now why would you think that a sensor is oversampling bad data? The reality is that an increase in megapixels will, for all but the very worst lenses, increase real picture resolution. We are very far from any optical limitation on the lenses.
This isn't really true at all. I use a modest resolution (24MP) D3X and many of my lenses (still the best Nikon makes at each focal length) are utterly incapable of rendering an image that approaches sharpness at the pixel level ... while some of the newest can, when properly stopped down.
I'm not talking about the pixel level. I have no doubt that small pixels will be worse than larger pixels. I'm talking picture level, where lots of pixels of lesser individual quality make up for a better picture overall.
Notice how most of Nikon's example pictures for the D800 are shot at f/8? One at f/10 and another at f/4.5 (which is obviously soft by the way), and they used the best lenses they have. Must be fun if images shot far from f/8 can't be used to demonstrate the capability of the camera without embarrassment to the manufacturer, huh? A nice, 2700€ fixed aperture camera. Cool.
And yet I feel certain that a D800 would resolve more detail than a 5D III with the very same lens.
Take the anti-aliasing filter as an example. It is not there because the sensors have too high resolutions; it is there because they are too low res. (And the lens resolution needs to be blurred).
No. The image projected by the image from some lenses at some apertures , some distances, and at the very center of the image circle needs to be blurred because it contains too high frequencies (these would affect very small parts of the image because most will be out of focus). But if you shoot wide open or stopped down there is no such problem. A 100MP sensor would produce an image with very little more information than a 24MP sensor when you don't use optimal aperture, optimal technique, optimal (manual live view) focus and a great lens. If your subject moves you'll have to use an extremely high shutter speed to make the extra pixels useful. What it would do is make 175MB raw files which would convert into 600MB TIFFs and if you add say, three layers you get a 1.8 GB image in the memory of the image editor, which typically requires three times that, to actually run, which is 5.4 GB just to open and edit one image. Sounds like fun? Wait until you have to write that data after editing into a file over a USB 2.0 connection. Talk about costly imaging.
I stand by what I said. The anti-aliasing filter is there to avoid moiré/ high frequency, and if the sensor was enough high resolution it wouldn't be needed. As for the data processing side I'm sure the advances will not stop at the current technology and USB2.0. (Why on earth didn't Canon put in USB 3.0?)

Good point about moving subjects though.
Also remember that the depth of field gets more and more shallow and pixel-level noise more and more obvious when you start demanding sharpness at the pixel level with those high resolution sensors. There is an ever narrowing opportunitiy to actually make good of those pixels. But people will find out soon enough as they try to put those cameras to good use.

(By the way I am not saying that the image gets worse as you increase sensor MTF. Obviously not, except at the highest ISO. But what happens is that the improvements are so insignificant that no one really cares. That's why Canon made a 22MP camera - they made 40MP sensors quite some time ago but didn't bring them to market because they didn't think the market demand exists.)
I would buy one. I would much prefer one over yet another 16-22 megapixel one.
And those are real quality enhancing pixels too: I did a test once with my Ricoh GRIII snapshot and my Canon 5D II, comparing the Ricoh image with the part of the Canon image from an equal size area. Given that the Canon sensor is about 22 times larger that is a 10 megapixel Ricoh image versus a 1 megapixel Canon image. The detail level and quality of the Ricoh is way higher - even after downsampling to 1 megapixel. So there is still a long way to go before optics are the limit.
Yes, in a tiny patch of image at the very center of a lens optimized to image a tiny image circle which is devoid of optical aberrations because it's at the very center. If you had mounted your Canon lens on the Ricoh camera and shifted it off center the picture would have been blurred.
That might be, but that Ricoh sensor density is the equal of a 220MB fullframe. I'd be happy with a 40MB one right now. (Besides, is cheap snapshot optics really that much better just from being small?)
 
Even with 12MP sensors great lenses separate themselves by the cleanness of the image, beautiful bokeh, colours, high sharpness, low distortion, low vignetting, faster focus, better build quality etc. It doesn't take a high resolution sensor to make good use of a great lens, nor does a high resolution sensor make magic out of a mediocre lens. It'll just be a little less mediocre, but still steadily in its own class.
I mostly in agreement with that. There are many good reasons to buy a great lens, but many seem very focused on the resolving power. I just wonder if those are the same people who doesn't care much about the resolving power of the sensor?
 
Probably the same for video. After all, the final output is far less than just about any sensor from the past few years unless you are printing larger than 11x14 or so. What other usage needs 18 or 22 mpixels?
My experience is that downsampling from more pixels will give you higher quality than a picture taken with the intended size to begin with. So quality wise it seems like a good idea regardless. That said I sometimes do want to print larger, and sometimes I want to crop or change format size.
But if a lens has uneven sharpness, which I consider far more noticeable than overall sharpness, you can see this at most sizes. Same for distortion, vignetting, CA and flare. Some may say color and micro contrast. I am not sure micro contrast shows at small sizes and color can be fixed in post processing.

Then there is depth of field and bokoh and if you do telephoto action, a good lens is absolutely required regardless of output size. The quality of the af tracking, IS fast aperture and focal length all add up to a pricey lens.
I do realize and agree that there are many good reasons besides resolving power for buying particular lenses. I have a fair collection myself. However, the things that is usually in focus in discussions and reviews are resolving power. And many advices new people to invest heavily in the glass side, and buy a cheap camera. Which might not be the optimum balance for the money.
What I need most is to improve the content of my images. But I like my content and have not been able to figure out what people would prefer.

http://ben-egbert.smugmug.com/

Ben
Who knows? People are different. This forum and discussion are proof of that! :)
 
It seems to me that these is a curious thing going on here. Lots of people here say they have mega pixels enough, yet at the same time they seem to be very concerned about having the latest and greatest optics and the resolution power of that.

Considering that you can get to the same effective level of picture resolution with a high res camera and second tier optics for less cash than a low res camera and lots of expensive optics it seems to be some inconsistencies floating around?

(I do get it for people who photograph in low light though).
Both the sensor and lens play important roles in the final photo. A better sensor or a better lens will improve the IQ of a photo.

Which matters more? Well, obviously, that depends on how much better the lens or sensor is over the lens or sensor it's replacing.
 
There are many good reasons to buy a great lens, but many seem very focused on the resolving power.
Resolving power doesn’t equate to image quality. Some lenses with the highest resolving power suffer from poor contrast, linear distortion and other aberrations.

A tack-sharp lens will make a tack-sharp photo at any sensor resolution, and a stellar lens will make a stellar photo even on a 10MP body, if the photographer does his/her job.

A poor lens will make a poor photo at any sensor resolution. It may be somewhat less poor at 36MP than 22MP, but poor nonetheless.
 
Probably the same for video. After all, the final output is far less than just about any sensor from the past few years unless you are printing larger than 11x14 or so. What other usage needs 18 or 22 mpixels?
My experience is that downsampling from more pixels will give you higher quality than a picture taken with the intended size to begin with. So quality wise it seems like a good idea regardless. That said I sometimes do want to print larger, and sometimes I want to crop or change format size.
Mine too, but a 21mpixel needs 3.5x downsampling for 1600 pixels in just one direction. Lots of crop room. I have a hard time seeing much difference between my old 5D and 1DS-mk3 at web size, but the lens issues stand out.

One of my best images was with the 20D and a 500f4 and it is heavily cropped.
But if a lens has uneven sharpness, which I consider far more noticeable than overall sharpness, you can see this at most sizes. Same for distortion, vignetting, CA and flare. Some may say color and micro contrast. I am not sure micro contrast shows at small sizes and color can be fixed in post processing.

Then there is depth of field and bokoh and if you do telephoto action, a good lens is absolutely required regardless of output size. The quality of the af tracking, IS fast aperture and focal length all add up to a pricey lens.
I do realize and agree that there are many good reasons besides resolving power for buying particular lenses. I have a fair collection myself. However, the things that is usually in focus in discussions and reviews are resolving power. And many advices new people to invest heavily in the glass side, and buy a cheap camera. Which might not be the optimum balance for the money.
In today's terms, 18 mpixels is near the bottom end so we are really speaking about the difference between say 18 and 36. Both are more than adequate for WEB
What I need most is to improve the content of my images. But I like my content and have not been able to figure out what people would prefer.

http://ben-egbert.smugmug.com/

Ben
Who knows? People are different. This forum and discussion are proof of that! :)
--

What I need most is to improve the content of my images. But I like my content and have not been able to figure out what people would prefer.

http://ben-egbert.smugmug.com/

Ben
 

Keyboard shortcuts

Back
Top