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Experts on focus issues Please SPEAK UP!!!!

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daryl.com

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Ok, I am hoping that what is happening here is user error. I took about 100 pics last night at our New Year's Eve party. Half of them had to be deleted for out of focus reasons. I have tried spot focus and I have tried iESP and neither seem to cut it. What is the deal when the 1.8 lens is supposed to be good for low light pics? Does that mean that it allows more light into the lens to make the picture look better and if so, does it help in anyway with focusing(obviously not in my case). I have put 4 pictures in my pbase gallery under "Focus Issues" and would appreciate someone helping me out with this. I love the C5050, and as I said, I hope this is simply something little that I am missing. Please take a look at the pictures and try to give me some advice. Thanks.

http://www.pbase.com/daryl

--
http://www.daryl.com/2002 - photo calendar
http://www.pbase.com/daryl - pbase supporter

Was shooting with an Olympus C4040. Had to make
the move to the C5050, and glad I did.
 
Also, This problem also is greatly magnified when handing the camera to my mother.
daryl.com said:
Ok, I am hoping that what is happening here is user error. I took
about 100 pics last night at our New Year's Eve party. Half of
them had to be deleted for out of focus reasons. I have tried spot
focus and I have tried iESP and neither seem to cut it. What is
the deal when the 1.8 lens is supposed to be good for low light
pics? Does that mean that it allows more light into the lens to
make the picture look better and if so, does it help in anyway with
focusing(obviously not in my case). I have put 4 pictures in my
pbase gallery under "Focus Issues" and would appreciate someone
helping me out with this. I love the C5050, and as I said, I hope
this is simply something little that I am missing. Please take a
look at the pictures and try to give me some advice. Thanks.

http://www.pbase.com/daryl

--
http://www.daryl.com/2002 - photo calendar
http://www.pbase.com/daryl - pbase supporter

Was shooting with an Olympus C4040. Had to make
the move to the C5050, and glad I did.
Click to expand...
--
http://www.daryl.com/2002 - photo calendar
http://www.pbase.com/daryl - pbase supporter

Was shooting with an Olympus C4040. Had to make
the move to the C5050, and glad I did.
 
... I would have to say that the problem is simply camera shake. While
the shutter speeds weren't all that slow , I can't really see much else it
could be . A shallower depth of field with the larger aperature may
account for some of the problem. The 1.8 lens is indeed valuable for
lowlight situations , but isn't guaranteed to counter camera shake.

3
 
That 1.8 lens is a fast lens, but the DOF will not be very big. What mode were you shooting in, A, P, a/s/m or what. Was this the on board flash?

I would do some test, try and take some hand held like you did last night. The if you have a tripod try it and see if you see a big difference.

I would then try apiture mode and set it to say f5.6 and see what you get.
It looks like there is something in focus in just about every picture.

Hope this helps, I know its not much.

--
Have you sent your MUG in ??????
http://www.pbase.com/otfchallenge/mugs
Bill Huber, Fort Worth, Tx
Oly C2100 - FL-40 Flash - B-Macro
UZI, http://www.pbase.com/wlhuber
 
I would have to agree with the other poster that camera shake with slower shutter speeds indoors is the most likely culprit, as I have taken pictures with the C-5050 in similar conditions with no real problems. I do notice a slight increase in the potential for this when my wife handles the camera, but not bad at all.

This isn't to say that something isn't going on strange with your camera. If you don't seem to have any problems with outdoor/lots of lighting, then it doesn't seem anything is wrong with the focusing itself.
daryl.com said:
Ok, I am hoping that what is happening here is user error. I took
about 100 pics last night at our New Year's Eve party. Half of
them had to be deleted for out of focus reasons. I have tried spot
focus and I have tried iESP and neither seem to cut it. What is
the deal when the 1.8 lens is supposed to be good for low light
pics? Does that mean that it allows more light into the lens to
make the picture look better and if so, does it help in anyway with
focusing(obviously not in my case). I have put 4 pictures in my
pbase gallery under "Focus Issues" and would appreciate someone
helping me out with this. I love the C5050, and as I said, I hope
this is simply something little that I am missing. Please take a
look at the pictures and try to give me some advice. Thanks.

http://www.pbase.com/daryl

--
http://www.daryl.com/2002 - photo calendar
http://www.pbase.com/daryl - pbase supporter

Was shooting with an Olympus C4040. Had to make
the move to the C5050, and glad I did.
Click to expand...
--
Olympus C-5050z, Kodak DC-4800
 
I would love to know that camera shake is the issue but that was an issue when I first started shooting.. I make it a point not to shake....My mother, on the other hand, is a different issue.
3DTIM said:
... I would have to say that the problem is simply camera shake.
While
the shutter speeds weren't all that slow , I can't really see much
else it
could be . A shallower depth of field with the larger aperature may
account for some of the problem. The 1.8 lens is indeed valuable for
lowlight situations , but isn't guaranteed to counter camera shake.

3
Click to expand...
--
http://www.daryl.com/2002 - photo calendar
http://www.pbase.com/daryl - pbase supporter

Was shooting with an Olympus C4040. Had to make
the move to the C5050, and glad I did.
 
daryl.com said:
I would love to know that camera shake is the issue but that was an
issue when I first started shooting.. I make it a point not to
shake....My mother, on the other hand, is a different issue.
Click to expand...
... of course , subject movement would fit in the same category as
camera shake here. Possibly alcohol induced shake as well... the fact
that it is worse with your mom still leads me to believe shake. It doesn't
take much movement to create a slightly blurred picture at 1/50 or 1/100.
You certainly wouldn't realize you were doing it...

3
 
I'd have to disagree with the camera shake theory. Normally, shake is not an issue with flash shots because the speed of the flash freezes any movement, irrespective of the shutter speed.

What I find significant is that in most cases there is something that IS sharp. In the first, it is a point on the front of the subject's shirt, just below the collar; in the second it is the wall behind the subjects; in the third the female subject is sharp while the male subject is not. The fourth pic, I suspect is really quite sharp - it certainly responds well to a touch of USM.

I note from the EXIF data that the aperture in each case was in the range f2.3-2.6. This leads me to suspect either a) focus was not spot on or more likely that b) the depth of field was insufficient.

To remedy b), you might try using Aperture priority and stopping down to f5.6 or even f8. At distances like these, the flash will simply throttle up to compensate.

Other suggestions: if these shots were taken with iESP (impossible to tell from the EXIF), that probably explains any inaccurate focus. Use spot. Also, what in-camera setting are you using for sharpness? I can well believe that pic 4 is a valid result if you have sharpness set to -4 or -5.

fenlander
 
Expert, I'm not...But I've always got an opinion!

I'm going to go way out on a limb here... I see no evidence of camera shake in the first three pics. The fourth? Maybe.

This is my thoughtful analysis (guesses) for each problem:

Pic#1: About to take a photo of the guy with glasses, aim, half-press, focused perfectly on him, then the Sprint guy walks into the photo and is captured accidently while the camera is still (perfectly) focused on the guy with the glasses. No shake.

Pic#2: Using spot focus the couple is chosen as the subject, the cam is pointed at them with their faces centered in the frame, half-press, the camera focuses perfectly on a tiny spot on the wall behind them, because they are not kissing at this point and the "spot" focus sees between them the wall behind.

They then lean together to kiss, the shutter is fired and the wall behind and the basket on the sill are perfectly focused...no shake.

Pic#3 In this shot, again, there is no evidence of camera shake...actually, we have a perfectly focused/perfectly exposed subject captured in this photo and it is the lady on the foreground, of course. I n this case, the camera operated flawlessly... but because the stop of f2.6 was used, the depth of field available simply could not incorporate two subjects located maybe 2' apart in focal distance.

Pic#4: I give up on this one... call it shake.

Ricky

R. Slaughter
'DEMOCRACY' is two wolves and a lamb voting on lunch.
'LIBERTY' is a well-armed lamb denying enforcement of the vote.

C+54.772256^2Z

http://www.pbase.com/nufsed/galleries
 
fenlander and daryl,

All of these were taken with the onboard flash, so forget camera shake. And like you pointed out, there is something sharp in EVERY image, which most definitely rules out camera shake.

For clarification, the "fast" lens of the 5050 is only of importance when you are taking pics in low light with NO FLASH. When you use the flash, you have negated the advantage of having a fast lens.

Cameras are stupid! Just look at the EXIF data on these images: they all have apertures in the wide open range and shutter speeds that are relatively slow, yet the flash unit is activated! So the engineers at Olympus think that when you pop up your flash you want a narrow DOF (the wide aperture) AND you want to include as much of the ambient light as possible (the only explanation for a 1/30 shutter speed when 1/200 sec would be a better setting)!

Daryl, this is what you need to be thinking when you pop up your flash. I want a vast DOF so I can get all of my subjects in sharp focus. I probably don't need f-11, but I certainly don't want f 2.8 either. The "sweet spot" of your camera's lens is probably around the f 5.6 to f 7 range, so choose one of these. If you want to include some of the ambient light, select a shutter speed of 1/30 to 1/60 second, otherwide choose 1/200 second. Now do a handfull of trial shots in spot focus mode. And remember, in spot focus, it is just the area in the small rectangle that the camera will focus upon. A half-press of the shutter locks this focus and you can re-compose your scene and finally press the shutter the remainder of the way to take your shot.

If you are still having trouble, consider taking your pics while looking through the viewfinder rather than the LCD. You have heard me say this before that I am skeptical that one can take seriously good pics using the LCD as a viewfinder. I just don't think you can hold the camera still. You certainly break all of the traditional rules of proper positioning and stance for a good, sharp picture, unless you are using a tripod.

Good luck,

jim

I still think you would benefit greatly from studying this book: Understanding Exposure, How to Shoot Great Photographs by Bryan Peterson. THis book covers in detail all of these decisions about when and why to set your aperture and shutter speed for a given result. For $20.00 from Amazon.com, it is worth its weight in gold as a primer for understanding the most fundamental aspects of photography.

Cheers!
 
Daryl,sorry to change the subject but I've been meaning to ask you about the Histogram,I remember a little while ago you asked the forum what this was all about. I think it's great (on my Sony 717) in fact I probably wouldn't have kept the camera if it didn't have it (it tipped the scale)

My advice would be to educate yourself with it and utilize it to take better exposed photos.(I understand this probably has nothing to do with your current concern) I take alot of photos with snow in it so I'm still learning how to adjust what the histogram is telling me in these conditions
daryl.com said:
Ok, I am hoping that what is happening here is user error. I took
about 100 pics last night at our New Year's Eve party. Half of
them had to be deleted for out of focus reasons. I have tried spot
focus and I have tried iESP and neither seem to cut it. What is
the deal when the 1.8 lens is supposed to be good for low light
pics? Does that mean that it allows more light into the lens to
make the picture look better and if so, does it help in anyway with
focusing(obviously not in my case). I have put 4 pictures in my
pbase gallery under "Focus Issues" and would appreciate someone
helping me out with this. I love the C5050, and as I said, I hope
this is simply something little that I am missing. Please take a
look at the pictures and try to give me some advice. Thanks.

http://www.pbase.com/daryl

--
http://www.daryl.com/2002 - photo calendar
http://www.pbase.com/daryl - pbase supporter

Was shooting with an Olympus C4040. Had to make
the move to the C5050, and glad I did.
Click to expand...
--
Bill C
E-10,Sony DSC-F717,c-2100
 
R. Slaughter,

I think you are right on all four of these and these are my thoughts also. The solution: stop down the aperture to get more DOF and the first three problems are solved! (and also remember how to get an accurate focus in the spot mode. Two subjects side-by-side is a red flag for "spot" focusers! We MUST select one subject or the other as the focal point, half-press the shutter, recompose then shoot. I've missed this very shot too!)

Cheers,

jim
 
fenlander said:
I'd have to disagree with the camera shake theory. Normally, shake
is not an issue with flash shots because the speed of the flash
freezes any movement, irrespective of the shutter speed.
Click to expand...
Camera shake is not necessarily going to show up so bad that it looks
like a double exposure or very noticable blur .... also seems to me that
at 1/50 s on the first shot , that the the camera is still exposing the shot
long after the flash . (comparatively speaking) Also ...that wouldn't
explain why the problem was worse with his mom . (Possibly she had
more to drink than he did! ) Still , I'm not a flash expert , so I'm not
sure how things " synch up " and if the flash duration actually becomes
the shutter speed in effect , or if 1/50 was still the actual shutter speed.

In any event , the pics didn't really look that bad to me for what they
were.

3
 
... after looking over the originals a bit better , I agree completely
that the shots are NOT out of focus at all . They actually look very
good. DOF is the main issue... (which I did make reference to in my
initial reply).
Sandman said:
All of these were taken with the onboard flash, so forget camera
shake. And like you pointed out, there is something sharp in EVERY
image, which most definitely rules out camera shake.
Click to expand...
This part I'm still a bit confused about . While I realize that this is
not the issue with Daryl's shot's ...how does the flash synch up , and
what is the true shutter speed with flash ? I don't see how camera shake
in general would be negated by simply using flash. I asume that the 1/50
shutter speed is still the true speed and that the flash duration can be
shifted to the beginning or end of the exposure as well. Seems to be
ample time to still create "some" blur ....particulary when shooting one
handed and holding a "BUD" in the other...

3
 
Still trying to grasp it...thanks.

d
BillyBoy02 said:
daryl.com said:
Ok, I am hoping that what is happening here is user error. I took
about 100 pics last night at our New Year's Eve party. Half of
them had to be deleted for out of focus reasons. I have tried spot
focus and I have tried iESP and neither seem to cut it. What is
the deal when the 1.8 lens is supposed to be good for low light
pics? Does that mean that it allows more light into the lens to
make the picture look better and if so, does it help in anyway with
focusing(obviously not in my case). I have put 4 pictures in my
pbase gallery under "Focus Issues" and would appreciate someone
helping me out with this. I love the C5050, and as I said, I hope
this is simply something little that I am missing. Please take a
look at the pictures and try to give me some advice. Thanks.

http://www.pbase.com/daryl

--
http://www.daryl.com/2002 - photo calendar
http://www.pbase.com/daryl - pbase supporter

Was shooting with an Olympus C4040. Had to make
the move to the C5050, and glad I did.
Click to expand...
--
Bill C
E-10,Sony DSC-F717,c-2100
Click to expand...
--
http://www.daryl.com/2002 - photo calendar
http://www.pbase.com/daryl - pbase supporter

Was shooting with an Olympus C4040. Had to make
the move to the C5050, and glad I did.
 
Your common theme seems to assume that everyone was too wasted to take a good picture. This is hardly the case. Had it been the case, I wouldnt have wasted my time and yours as to why the shots looked so crappy. Hope you had a good and sober New Year.

d
3DTIM said:
fenlander said:
I'd have to disagree with the camera shake theory. Normally, shake
is not an issue with flash shots because the speed of the flash
freezes any movement, irrespective of the shutter speed.
Click to expand...
Camera shake is not necessarily going to show up so bad that it looks
like a double exposure or very noticable blur .... also seems to
me that
at 1/50 s on the first shot , that the the camera is still
exposing the shot
long after the flash . (comparatively speaking) Also ...that
wouldn't
explain why the problem was worse with his mom . (Possibly she had
more to drink than he did! ) Still , I'm not a flash expert , so
I'm not
sure how things " synch up " and if the flash duration actually
becomes
the shutter speed in effect , or if 1/50 was still the actual
shutter speed.

In any event , the pics didn't really look that bad to me for what
they
were.

3
Click to expand...
--
http://www.daryl.com/2002 - photo calendar
http://www.pbase.com/daryl - pbase supporter

Was shooting with an Olympus C4040. Had to make
the move to the C5050, and glad I did.
 
Thanks. I type so slowly that at the time I started my original reply, I was the only one expressing this view. I was worried that I was seeing it wrong and would be exposed as a buffoon... but you are here to give me vindication!! By the time I finally got it to post, fenlander had posted his as well.

Yes, I have missed shots exactly matching each of these! Far more recently than I'll say here!

Ricky
l
Sandman said:
R. Slaughter,

I think you are right on all four of these and these are my
thoughts also. The solution: stop down the aperture to get more
DOF and the first three problems are solved! (and also remember
how to get an accurate focus in the spot mode. Two subjects
side-by-side is a red flag for "spot" focusers! We MUST select one
subject or the other as the focal point, half-press the shutter,
recompose then shoot. I've missed this very shot too!)

Cheers,

jim
Click to expand...
--
R. Slaughter
'DEMOCRACY' is two wolves and a lamb voting on lunch.
'LIBERTY' is a well-armed lamb denying enforcement of the vote.

C+54.772256^2Z

http://www.pbase.com/nufsed/galleries
 
Then my question is this...and you may or may not be able to answer it if you havent tinkered with the C5050.

How do make the default aperature on the camera more than 2.8 or so....? Must I shoot in aperature mode to achieve this? I have 4 my mode settings for my camera. SHQ normal, SHQ 3:2, HQ normal and HQ 3:2. I wonder if I could make this a part of the my mode feature.

Thanks,

d
Sandman said:
fenlander and daryl,

All of these were taken with the onboard flash, so forget camera
shake. And like you pointed out, there is something sharp in EVERY
image, which most definitely rules out camera shake.

For clarification, the "fast" lens of the 5050 is only of
importance when you are taking pics in low light with NO FLASH.
When you use the flash, you have negated the advantage of having a
fast lens.

Cameras are stupid! Just look at the EXIF data on these images:
they all have apertures in the wide open range and shutter speeds
that are relatively slow, yet the flash unit is activated! So the
engineers at Olympus think that when you pop up your flash you want
a narrow DOF (the wide aperture) AND you want to include as much of
the ambient light as possible (the only explanation for a 1/30
shutter speed when 1/200 sec would be a better setting)!

Daryl, this is what you need to be thinking when you pop up your
flash. I want a vast DOF so I can get all of my subjects in sharp
focus. I probably don't need f-11, but I certainly don't want f
2.8 either. The "sweet spot" of your camera's lens is probably
around the f 5.6 to f 7 range, so choose one of these. If you want
to include some of the ambient light, select a shutter speed of
1/30 to 1/60 second, otherwide choose 1/200 second. Now do a
handfull of trial shots in spot focus mode. And remember, in spot
focus, it is just the area in the small rectangle that the camera
will focus upon. A half-press of the shutter locks this focus and
you can re-compose your scene and finally press the shutter the
remainder of the way to take your shot.

If you are still having trouble, consider taking your pics while
looking through the viewfinder rather than the LCD. You have heard
me say this before that I am skeptical that one can take seriously
good pics using the LCD as a viewfinder. I just don't think you
can hold the camera still. You certainly break all of the
traditional rules of proper positioning and stance for a good,
sharp picture, unless you are using a tripod.

Good luck,

jim

I still think you would benefit greatly from studying this book:
Understanding Exposure, How to Shoot Great Photographs by Bryan
Peterson. THis book covers in detail all of these decisions about
when and why to set your aperture and shutter speed for a given
result. For $20.00 from Amazon.com, it is worth its weight in gold
as a primer for understanding the most fundamental aspects of
photography.

Cheers!
Click to expand...
--
http://www.daryl.com/2002 - photo calendar
http://www.pbase.com/daryl - pbase supporter

Was shooting with an Olympus C4040. Had to make
the move to the C5050, and glad I did.
 
daryl.com said:
Ok, I am hoping that what is happening here is user error. I took
about 100 pics last night at our New Year's Eve party.
Click to expand...
(snip!)
daryl.com said:
Was shooting with an Olympus C4040. Had to make
the move to the C5050, and glad I did.
Click to expand...
I've read all of the theories... I think it's a DOF issue and here's what I do when shooting in a dim/dark room where I KNOW I'm going to use the flash.

Set the camera to MANUAL exposure with MANUAL focus. Set the flash to "forced on". Set the aperture to F5.6 or F8.0, ASA to 200, and the shutter speed can be whatever you like to get as much or as little of the ambient lighting in there. Then, set the focus to about 3-4 feet and LEAVE IT THERE.

The shots will happen almost immediately as there is no futzing around to get exposure/focus info. The subjects will all be in focus as the DOF is pretty good for that FStop range. It DOES turn your camera into a glorified point-and-shoot, but if the objective is to get quick pictures of your friends in a party atmosphere, then point-and-shoot is just what you're looking for, right?

As an example, ALL of the flash/indoor/nighttime photos on the following page were done with complete manual settings. Seems to work pretty good. All shot with a 2040Z but should be appropriate to any digicam..

http://www.visi.com/~charlesr/twinsdays_2002/

-Charles
 
I agree with your assessments. I was going to give a simple reply, but you took care of it with more detail than I would have come up with.

--
 
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