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Shadows at base ISO D4 x D3s

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rhlpetrus

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Using CNX2 exposure comp+shadow protection from NEFs to match background of threads box, here's the D4 x D3s in shadows at base ISO (100 x 200, respectively). There's not any need of resizing in this case, Bill/Marianne's data are fully vindicated! And it seems that the D4 shines regarding reds, good news for portraits.

D3s



D4



--
Renato.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rhlpedrosa/
OnExposure member
http://www.onexposure.net/

Good shooting and good luck
(after Ed Murrow)
 
Renato, I agree that these images appear to support Bill and Marianne's analyses.

Wonderful level of detail from the D4. Less smearing and improved colours.

Cheers.
 
rhlpetrus said:
Using CNX2 exposure comp+shadow protection from NEFs to match background of threads box, here's the D4 x D3s in shadows at base ISO (100 x 200, respectively). There's not any need of resizing in this case, Bill/Marianne's data are fully vindicated! And it seems that the D4 shines regarding reds, good news for portraits.
Click to expand...
Thanks for posting these crops (and the ones in the other thread you started). I'm not sure why you're saying the D4 "shines" regarding reds. What I'm seeing here and in the other crops you posted is better color separation and definition and more saturated colors in the D3s shots. Notice for instance the red and orange fluff balls side-by-side. The colors are more distinctly differentiated in the D3s shots you've posted. In the other thread you can see richer blues in the feathers at the very top left corner as well.

In other respects I prefer the D4's performance, but not having done anything yet with the raws I'm curious about what you're seeing when you analyze the raws as you're processing them.
rhlpetrus said:
Renato.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rhlpedrosa/
OnExposure member
http://www.onexposure.net/

Good shooting and good luck
(after Ed Murrow)
Click to expand...
--
My photos: http://www.pbase.com/imageiseverything/root
 
Thanks for all the posts. You have convinced me that the D4 is well worth it and the best there is.
--
Peter
Ontario, Canada
 
Is this very tiny difference worth the upgrade?
I think D3s owners will not in need to upgrade;
probably D3/D700 waiting for a D3s-Upgrade

As the D3 sales simply stopped with the appearing of the D700, Nikon introduced the D3s very soon. And it is a superb cam; Now resulting in the problem to top it.
/
Karl
 
It depends on what you use your camera for. I think the shadows behavior here is no st such a subtle improvement, like more than 3db of SNR below -2EV exposure (look for Marianne's posts).

Anyway, if you have followed Iliah/Bill/Bob/Marianne posts/debates here, it's clear that the D3s was already getting close to the ideal sensor, then D4 is a little closer. Marianne estimates only 2db in SNR below ideal FF sensor for D4, that's less than a stop overall.

What the D4 does is bring that technology to a higher resolution w/o any losses, improving SNR at base ISO, adding top-notch video and refining even further the best AF system out there. It is a worthy upgrade for those that need those features.
SpinThma said:
Is this very tiny difference worth the upgrade?
I think D3s owners will not in need to upgrade;
probably D3/D700 waiting for a D3s-Upgrade

As the D3 sales simply stopped with the appearing of the D700, Nikon introduced the D3s very soon. And it is a superb cam; Now resulting in the problem to top it.
/
Karl
Click to expand...
--
Renato.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rhlpedrosa/
OnExposure member
http://www.onexposure.net/

Good shooting and good luck
(after Ed Murrow)
 
If you check the other post with crops you'll see the D3s lacks details in the red fluffy balls. In this test the threads that carry lots of reds the detail is clearly better is the D4's image.

You mention red and orange being more differentiate, I'm looking at each ball and checking fine detail there. The other point is that the balls in these crops have changed position, is that what is causing the confusion?
knickerhawk said:
rhlpetrus said:
Using CNX2 exposure comp+shadow protection from NEFs to match background of threads box, here's the D4 x D3s in shadows at base ISO (100 x 200, respectively). There's not any need of resizing in this case, Bill/Marianne's data are fully vindicated! And it seems that the D4 shines regarding reds, good news for portraits.
Click to expand...
Thanks for posting these crops (and the ones in the other thread you started). I'm not sure why you're saying the D4 "shines" regarding reds. What I'm seeing here and in the other crops you posted is better color separation and definition and more saturated colors in the D3s shots. Notice for instance the red and orange fluff balls side-by-side. The colors are more distinctly differentiated in the D3s shots you've posted. In the other thread you can see richer blues in the feathers at the very top left corner as well.

In other respects I prefer the D4's performance, but not having done anything yet with the raws I'm curious about what you're seeing when you analyze the raws as you're processing them.
knickerhawk said:
Renato.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rhlpedrosa/
OnExposure member
http://www.onexposure.net/

Good shooting and good luck
(after Ed Murrow)
Click to expand...
--
My photos: http://www.pbase.com/imageiseverything/root
Click to expand...
--
Renato.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rhlpedrosa/
OnExposure member
http://www.onexposure.net/

Good shooting and good luck
(after Ed Murrow)
 
there are more details in the 4d stitching roll

the red color is more satuerated in the d3s image, depending on how the profile is written.
rhlpetrus said:
If you check the other post with crops you'll see the D3s lacks details in the red fluffy balls. In this test the threads that carry lots of reds the detail is clearly better is the D4's image.

You mention red and orange being more differentiate, I'm looking at each ball and checking fine detail there. The other point is that the balls in these crops have changed position, is that what is causing the confusion?
knickerhawk said:
rhlpetrus said:
Using CNX2 exposure comp+shadow protection from NEFs to match background of threads box, here's the D4 x D3s in shadows at base ISO (100 x 200, respectively). There's not any need of resizing in this case, Bill/Marianne's data are fully vindicated! And it seems that the D4 shines regarding reds, good news for portraits.
Click to expand...
Thanks for posting these crops (and the ones in the other thread you started). I'm not sure why you're saying the D4 "shines" regarding reds. What I'm seeing here and in the other crops you posted is better color separation and definition and more saturated colors in the D3s shots. Notice for instance the red and orange fluff balls side-by-side. The colors are more distinctly differentiated in the D3s shots you've posted. In the other thread you can see richer blues in the feathers at the very top left corner as well.

In other respects I prefer the D4's performance, but not having done anything yet with the raws I'm curious about what you're seeing when you analyze the raws as you're processing them.
rhlpetrus said:
Renato.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rhlpedrosa/
OnExposure member
http://www.onexposure.net/

Good shooting and good luck
(after Ed Murrow)
Click to expand...
--
My photos: http://www.pbase.com/imageiseverything/root
Click to expand...
--
Renato.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rhlpedrosa/
OnExposure member
http://www.onexposure.net/

Good shooting and good luck
(after Ed Murrow)
Click to expand...
 
Mikael Risedal said:
there are more details in the 4d stitching roll

the red color is more satuerated in the d3s image, depending on how the profile is written.
Click to expand...
I checked exposure and histograms. As usual, DPR screws up. They are not only unmatched re exposure (D4 is 1/3 stop higher, even though histogram looks similar, thus likely lighting not same), but they used f/11 for D4 and f/8 for D3s.

Anyway, the extra saturation is not ACR's fault, it's in CNX2 as well, and not only reds, check the green stuff bottom left. Both used Standard Profile, so that's not the cause for difference.

But the lack of detail in the reds is really visible, in the whole picture. The D4 really does a much better job of controlling that. Very good IMO (some people think more saturation means better colors, that's wrong).
Mikael Risedal said:
rhlpetrus said:
If you check the other post with crops you'll see the D3s lacks details in the red fluffy balls. In this test the threads that carry lots of reds the detail is clearly better is the D4's image.

You mention red and orange being more differentiate, I'm looking at each ball and checking fine detail there. The other point is that the balls in these crops have changed position, is that what is causing the confusion?
knickerhawk said:
rhlpetrus said:
Using CNX2 exposure comp+shadow protection from NEFs to match background of threads box, here's the D4 x D3s in shadows at base ISO (100 x 200, respectively). There's not any need of resizing in this case, Bill/Marianne's data are fully vindicated! And it seems that the D4 shines regarding reds, good news for portraits.
Click to expand...
Thanks for posting these crops (and the ones in the other thread you started). I'm not sure why you're saying the D4 "shines" regarding reds. What I'm seeing here and in the other crops you posted is better color separation and definition and more saturated colors in the D3s shots. Notice for instance the red and orange fluff balls side-by-side. The colors are more distinctly differentiated in the D3s shots you've posted. In the other thread you can see richer blues in the feathers at the very top left corner as well.

In other respects I prefer the D4's performance, but not having done anything yet with the raws I'm curious about what you're seeing when you analyze the raws as you're processing them.
Mikael Risedal said:
Renato.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rhlpedrosa/
OnExposure member
http://www.onexposure.net/

Good shooting and good luck
(after Ed Murrow)
Click to expand...
--
My photos: http://www.pbase.com/imageiseverything/root
Click to expand...
--
Renato.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rhlpedrosa/
OnExposure member
http://www.onexposure.net/

Good shooting and good luck
(after Ed Murrow)
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
--
Renato.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rhlpedrosa/
OnExposure member
http://www.onexposure.net/

Good shooting and good luck
(after Ed Murrow)
 
As I said before, I think the problem is that the profiles are not similar/identical to each other even if they are named the same.

The color filters seems to be identical, I do not think Nikon has changed the permeability.
rhlpetrus said:
Mikael Risedal said:
there are more details in the 4d stitching roll

the red color is more satuerated in the d3s image, depending on how the profile is written.
Click to expand...
I checked exposure and histograms. As usual, DPR screws up. They are not only unmatched re exposure (D4 is 1/3 stop higher, even though histogram looks similar, thus likely lighting not same), but they used f/11 for D4 and f/8 for D3s.

Anyway, the extra saturation is not ACR's fault, it's in CNX2 as well, and not only reds, check the green stuff bottom left. Both used Standard Profile, so that's not the cause for difference.

But the lack of detail in the reds is really visible, in the whole picture. The D4 really does a much better job of controlling that. Very good IMO (some people think more saturation means better colors, that's wrong).
rhlpetrus said:
rhlpetrus said:
If you check the other post with crops you'll see the D3s lacks details in the red fluffy balls. In this test the threads that carry lots of reds the detail is clearly better is the D4's image.

You mention red and orange being more differentiate, I'm looking at each ball and checking fine detail there. The other point is that the balls in these crops have changed position, is that what is causing the confusion?
knickerhawk said:
rhlpetrus said:
Using CNX2 exposure comp+shadow protection from NEFs to match background of threads box, here's the D4 x D3s in shadows at base ISO (100 x 200, respectively). There's not any need of resizing in this case, Bill/Marianne's data are fully vindicated! And it seems that the D4 shines regarding reds, good news for portraits.
Click to expand...
Thanks for posting these crops (and the ones in the other thread you started). I'm not sure why you're saying the D4 "shines" regarding reds. What I'm seeing here and in the other crops you posted is better color separation and definition and more saturated colors in the D3s shots. Notice for instance the red and orange fluff balls side-by-side. The colors are more distinctly differentiated in the D3s shots you've posted. In the other thread you can see richer blues in the feathers at the very top left corner as well.

In other respects I prefer the D4's performance, but not having done anything yet with the raws I'm curious about what you're seeing when you analyze the raws as you're processing them.
rhlpetrus said:
Renato.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rhlpedrosa/
OnExposure member
http://www.onexposure.net/

Good shooting and good luck
(after Ed Murrow)
Click to expand...
--
My photos: http://www.pbase.com/imageiseverything/root
Click to expand...
--
Renato.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rhlpedrosa/
OnExposure member
http://www.onexposure.net/

Good shooting and good luck
(after Ed Murrow)
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
--
Renato.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rhlpedrosa/
OnExposure member
http://www.onexposure.net/

Good shooting and good luck
(after Ed Murrow)
Click to expand...
 
Mikael Risedal said:
There you can se the advantage of the Sony sensor with column wise ADC at the sensor edge in d7000 =15x23mm compared to the rest 24x36mm .
The d7000 has very low read noise
Im waiting for my d800 and do a test
Click to expand...
The D800 will crush all, Nikon or otherwise. But one shoudl not understimate the D4. This test indicates the base ISO Dr for D4 should be at least 1 EV above D3s.

--
Renato.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rhlpedrosa/
OnExposure member
http://www.onexposure.net/

Good shooting and good luck
(after Ed Murrow)
 
As a general note, I have to say I'm a bit disappointed in the color discrimination performance of the D4, based upon these test samples. I downloaded the ISO 100 NEFS for the D3, D7000, and D4 so I could check them in NX2, and there is no doubt I prefer the color performance of the D3 first, then the D4, and the D7000, in that order. HOWEVER - the shots of the older cameras were taken long ago. I'd need to shoot with the D4 in a controlled setting myself to compare to the other bodies before I could ever make a determination for a "final answer", so the jury is still out.

The D4 does seem to have colors that aren't as contaminated with other colors to the point the D7000 does, which is a good thing.

-m
 
in real world ?
rhlpetrus said:
Using CNX2 exposure comp+shadow protection from NEFs to match background of threads box, here's the D4 x D3s in shadows at base ISO (100 x 200, respectively). There's not any need of resizing in this case, Bill/Marianne's data are fully vindicated! And it seems that the D4 shines regarding reds, good news for portraits.

D3s



D4



--
Renato.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rhlpedrosa/
OnExposure member
http://www.onexposure.net/

Good shooting and good luck
(after Ed Murrow)
Click to expand...
 
very good thank you, if you know what to do, lift the shadows, working with curve tools, select an area for further processing, the are many ways to improve a picture
UponQuai said:
rhlpetrus said:
Using CNX2 exposure comp+shadow protection from NEFs to match background of threads box, here's the D4 x D3s in shadows at base ISO (100 x 200, respectively). There's not any need of resizing in this case, Bill/Marianne's data are fully vindicated! And it seems that the D4 shines regarding reds, good news for portraits.

D3s



D4



--
Renato.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rhlpedrosa/
OnExposure member
http://www.onexposure.net/

Good shooting and good luck
(after Ed Murrow)
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
UponQuai said:
in real world ?
Click to expand...
It works better with RAW files. There are many ways: use directly the recovery tools of CNX2 or PS/ACR to lift shadows, or with local tools like u-point technology in CNX2 or Viveza.

I use it all the time on the D7000: I expose (manually) so that HLs are protected in relevant areas (like well-lit face, never let the REd channel clip there), then I lift shadows selectively where you need color or detail. Here's a simple example where I used that in some of the darker ares in the face where it was darker:



But that is not a very drastic example, even though the effect is actually relevant for impact of image.

Now, on this one, I really missed exposure (actually I was adjusting exposure before a session, it turned out to be the best image of the set):



Here's the image after recovery:



Not that it doesn't show problems (actually a lot), but it was a very radical lift for a portrait, no one would recommend that type of exposure ;). But still, it saved a memorable shot (for private reasons, my daughter). In a real situation, you can see that even a very dark area has enough detail/colors to be useful if needed (like a an area in the shade in a meadow where the main subject is in full sun).
--
Renato.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rhlpedrosa/
OnExposure member
http://www.onexposure.net/

Good shooting and good luck
(after Ed Murrow)
 
Mikael Risedal said:
As I said before, I think the problem is that the profiles are not similar/identical to each other even if they are named the same.

The color filters seems to be identical, I do not think Nikon has changed the permeability.
Click to expand...
We need tests for that. DxO Mark color balance graphs and metamerism index will indicate some characteristics, Marianne and Iliah usually test CFA behavior, lets wait a bit, DxO mark must be around the corner.

That it is a new CFA is obvious, since a different sensor, if similar, likely, if same, we don't know. But it also depends on balancing algorithms, so that's really a difficult job to access all that info.

My aim was purely to test shadows recovery here, visually in CNX2, but since you and some have questioned colors, I stick at this point to my impression (just that), that D4, at usual Standard Profile, CNX2 or ACR, has good color gradation performance, IMO better than that of D3s, especially for reds. But that could be due to a lack of color separation, actually, so we need tests to check it.

--
Renato.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rhlpedrosa/
OnExposure member
http://www.onexposure.net/

Good shooting and good luck
(after Ed Murrow)
 
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