9 straight vs 7 rounded blade apertures?

mg428

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Please correct me if I am wrong:

1) More aperture blades produce better bokeh

2) Rounded aperture blades produce better bokeh than straight ones

So, in the case of 9 straight vs 7 rounded blade apertures, which one will produce better bokeh?
 
If engineering a lens were as simple as making decision like that it would be easy. Alas in practice you need to check the lenses out with reviews and people who already have them.

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StephenG
 
If engineering a lens were as simple as making decision like that it would be easy. Alas in practice you need to check the lenses out with reviews and people who already have them.

--
StephenG
I definetely agree with you but please assume for the purposes of this question that they are the same lens.
 
If engineering a lens were as simple as making decision like that it would be easy. Alas in practice you need to check the lenses out with reviews and people who already have them.
I definetely agree with you but please assume for the purposes of this question that they are the same lens.
Even with that assumption, no real answer. A specific prime might have subjectively better bokeh with your 9 strait design while another longer focal length prime might do better with 7 rounded. You simply can't simplify it that way :)
 
The statement I made had no assumptions and regardless of the optics there is simply no way to know for sure until you have the lens to check. As any engineer will tell you the most important law is Murphy's. Design it to do something and fail to check it does and it probably won't, just to spite you. Check everything and it looks OK, the it probably breaks something else, just for devilment.

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StephenG
 
Please correct me if I am wrong:

1) More aperture blades produce better bokeh

2) Rounded aperture blades produce better bokeh than straight ones

So, in the case of 9 straight vs 7 rounded blade apertures, which one will produce better bokeh?
If all else is equal, the 7 rounded blades should produce a smoother effect than 9 non-rounded blades. Note that typically though any lens where the design is taken to the level of using rounded blades will also go to more than 7 blades.
 
Rounded blades can only produce a smoothly round aperture at one aperture setting. You could even end up with a worse shape than with straight blades at some apertures.
 
Mostly when one is interested in bokeh, it is the performance of the lens when used wide open which may be most important. There may be exceptions, but usually the aperture blades are completely withdrawn and the shape of he aperture is completely round.

Does that then mean that the bokeh under these conditions is always wonderful? Definitely not. That's because it is the optical design in terms of lens elements, refractive indices and curvature which is the biggest influence on whether the bokeh is harsh or pleasing.

I'd put number of aperture blades much lower down the list of important factors.

Where aperture blades do play a very important part is in diffraction effects. At smaller apertures, bright point light sources within the image may be rendered as a 'star' with multiple rays radiating outwards from the light source.

Typically, the pattern from an even number of blades will have the same number of points, e.g. six blades gives six points. But an odd number of blades will give double the number of points, e.g. five blades gives ten points.

Regards,
Peter
 
This is easy to test, get a piece of black construction paper, and some white tracing paper. Pick a lens with each, shine a light through the lens onto the tracing paper, and cut out a small shape made by the aperture (make sure it's small enough to become the entrance pupil). Then attach or hold each in front of a fast lens and observe the differences.
 
Mostly when one is interested in bokeh, it is the performance of the lens when used wide open which may be most important. There may be exceptions, but usually the aperture blades are completely withdrawn and the shape of he aperture is completely round.
At a very basic level, that is quite true. But it can get much more complex. For example the Nikkor 85mm f/1.4D AF-D lens was designed years ago specifically to have pleasant bokeh, as were the 105mm and 135mm f/2 DC lenses. As opposed to those, other examples of less expensive lenses that are commonly referenced are the old Series E 70-150mm zoom and the 85mm f/1.8D AF-D lens. All of those are commonly compared, and the relatively inexpensive 85mm f/1.8 lens has often been cited as "good enough".

But in fact the 85mm f/1.8 lens is not even close! It has relatively decent bokeh only when shot virtually wide open. Of course it isn't as sharp at f/1.8 as it is at f/4 either, so it's take your choice, sharpness vs smooth bokeh. The manual focus 75-150mm f/3.5 Series E zoom suffers the same problem (and is basically a "cult lens" due to the great bokeh wide open, not to mention the low cost).

But the 85mm f/1.4 lenses and the two DC lenses all have 9 rounded shutter blades, and while DOF changes and the amount a of out of focus changes, the smooth bokeh is retained even when stopped down! Getting the subject sharp does not automatically eliminate smooth bokeh. The creative potential for the lenses with rounded blades is significantly greater than what can be done with the others.

Hence for those with advanced skills and requirements, the difference is quite significant.
Does that then mean that the bokeh under these conditions is always wonderful? Definitely not. That's because it is the optical design in terms of lens elements, refractive indices and curvature which is the biggest influence on whether the bokeh is harsh or pleasing.

I'd put number of aperture blades much lower down the list of important factors.
But virtually every modern lens that is designed specifically for good boken is also necessarily going to have 9 rounded blades in the diaphragm. If the design target did not call for rounded blades, it almost certainly did not consider bokeh at all for other parameters either.
Where aperture blades do play a very important part is in diffraction effects. At smaller apertures, bright point light sources within the image may be rendered as a 'star' with multiple rays radiating outwards from the light source.

Typically, the pattern from an even number of blades will have the same number of points, e.g. six blades gives six points. But an odd number of blades will give double the number of points, e.g. five blades gives ten points.
And more is generally better, if for no other reason than each ray of light from the point is also half the intensity when generated by a odd number of corners. Note also that as has been mentioned even "rounded" blades are not perfectly round, but the more blades the less the imperfection. Hence a diaphragm with only 6 blades, even if they are rounded, will be very poor compared to a 9 bladed diaphragm with rounded blades.
 

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