wow some people will always moan

golf1982

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Nikon release an amazing low MP high speed camera, and an amazing high resolution - ultimate image quality camera.

At the same time the D700 is reduced in price dramatically, and the d3s and D3x (cameras only outdone in their fields of IQ by the new Nikon pair) will be available used for less than ever.

and yet people still moan!!!! loudly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

the choose of Nikon cameras has NEVER been so good -
 
Nikon release an amazing low MP high speed camera, and an amazing high resolution - ultimate image quality camera.

At the same time the D700 is reduced in price dramatically, and the d3s and D3x (cameras only outdone in their fields of IQ by the new Nikon pair) will be available used for less than ever.

and yet people still moan!!!! loudly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

the choose of Nikon cameras has NEVER been so good -
What specifically are their "moans"?
--

 
Nikon release an amazing low MP high speed camera, and an amazing high resolution - ultimate image quality camera.

At the same time the D700 is reduced in price dramatically, and the d3s and D3x (cameras only outdone in their fields of IQ by the new Nikon pair) will be available used for less than ever.

and yet people still moan!!!! loudly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

the choose of Nikon cameras has NEVER been so good -
Seems like you're doing the moaning now.

But excellent and informative thread.
 
High megapixel does not automatically equal "ultimate quality". It means "Ultimate resolution"

Nikon will sell a bunch of D800's. They knew what they where doing putting 36 megapixels in a $3,000.00 body.

Seems to me a lot of future D800 buyers want to think that Nikon made a "opps" with the D800, or it is a D4 killer in terms of overall photo IQ.
I'm willing to bet Nikon knows what their doing.

I'm sure Nikon could have put a few more mega pixels on the D4, sacrificed some high iso, frame rates and photo IQ, but I am so happy they didn't.
 
If you think this forum is moaning about cameras, it's not as bad as the Canon 5d forum.

It's amazing. Suddenly the Canon users are complaining that the 5d2 is chopped liver, or they are making the same sort of fanboy excuses about why the D800 isn't ... something.

In Canonland, they've been taken aback by suddenly 'losing the megapixel/price war', based on conjecture of a 22mp $3500 5d3 price.

In Nikonland, they've been taken aback by suddenly not seeing the mini-D4/high-iso champ.

I think it's all because of expectations. Expectations based on the previous history of 'entry-level' FX cameras. Nikon's was high-iso, D3-on-a-budget. Canon's was we've-got-you-beat-on-pixels-at-a-lower price.

Flip those models on their heads and you get a lot of surprised people.

You know, at least in Nikonland, all will be well if only the D800 shoots at ISO 6400 as well as the D700, buy one measurement or another. (100% or scaled down.)

In Canonland, they want a camera priced lower than the Nikon equivalent, with more pixels. They also want decent AF. They don't think they're going to get it.

--
Craig
http://www.cjcphoto.net
 
Higher res is higher quality, just as a lens w/ more res shows higher sharpness/contrast across the spectrum.

It would seem that Nikon does know more about image quality than people who'll believe the bizarre myth that more detail and sharpness are pointless.
High megapixel does not automatically equal "ultimate quality". It means "Ultimate resolution"

Nikon will sell a bunch of D800's. They knew what they where doing putting 36 megapixels in a $3,000.00 body.

Seems to me a lot of future D800 buyers want to think that Nikon made a "opps" with the D800, or it is a D4 killer in terms of overall photo IQ.
I'm willing to bet Nikon knows what their doing.

I'm sure Nikon could have put a few more mega pixels on the D4, sacrificed some high iso, frame rates and photo IQ, but I am so happy they didn't.
 
High megapixel does not automatically equal "ultimate quality". It means "Ultimate resolution"

Nikon will sell a bunch of D800's. They knew what they where doing putting 36 megapixels in a $3,000.00 body.

Seems to me a lot of future D800 buyers want to think that Nikon made a "opps" with the D800, or it is a D4 killer in terms of overall photo IQ.
I'm willing to bet Nikon knows what their doing.

I'm sure Nikon could have put a few more mega pixels on the D4, sacrificed some high iso, frame rates and photo IQ, but I am so happy they didn't.
+1

I was going to warn you this post would bring out the morons but I arrived too late.

Of course, if Canon come out with even more pixels they'll find reasons to write off that increase as marginal, too much, or poorly thought through.
 
High megapixel does not automatically equal "ultimate quality". It means "Ultimate resolution"

Nikon will sell a bunch of D800's. They knew what they where doing putting 36 megapixels in a $3,000.00 body.

Seems to me a lot of future D800 buyers want to think that Nikon made a "opps" with the D800, or it is a D4 killer in terms of overall photo IQ.
I'm willing to bet Nikon knows what their doing.

I'm sure Nikon could have put a few more mega pixels on the D4, sacrificed some high iso, frame rates and photo IQ, but I am so happy they didn't.
+1

I was going to warn you this post would bring out the morons but I arrived too late.

Of course, if Canon come out with even more pixels they'll find reasons to write off that increase as marginal, too much, or poorly thought through.
Hey, wasn't it you who was feigning complaints against me about "straw men" not a day ago? Now, I'm not going to claim that hypocrisy is always wrong, but you should at least try to understand the words you're trying to pin on others first.
 
High megapixel does not automatically equal "ultimate quality". It means "Ultimate resolution"

Nikon will sell a bunch of D800's. They knew what they where doing putting 36 megapixels in a $3,000.00 body.

Seems to me a lot of future D800 buyers want to think that Nikon made a "opps" with the D800, or it is a D4 killer in terms of overall photo IQ.
I'm willing to bet Nikon knows what their doing.

I'm sure Nikon could have put a few more mega pixels on the D4, sacrificed some high iso, frame rates and photo IQ, but I am so happy they didn't.
+1

I was going to warn you this post would bring out the morons but I arrived too late.

Of course, if Canon come out with even more pixels they'll find reasons to write off that increase as marginal, too much, or poorly thought through.
You guys made my point perfectly.
Thanks!

Like I said....Nikon knew you guys would get stars in your eyes with so many megapixels. You probably think they priced the d4 and d800 backwards.
 
Weird reply.
Higher res is not higher quality, stop spreading that myth.

I know of a ton of compac camera's that do not output better quality even though they had higher megapixel count than lets say a D2x.

A D7000 (16megapixel) does not give a better quality photo than a D3s (12megapixel) with same lens. I have both....don't kid yourself.
We all know good quality lens are paramount.

More detail and sharpness is not pointless....stop trying to make points we all agree on.
Higher res is higher quality, just as a lens w/ more res shows higher sharpness/contrast across the spectrum.

It would seem that Nikon does know more about image quality than people who'll believe the bizarre myth that more detail and sharpness are pointless.
High megapixel does not automatically equal "ultimate quality". It means "Ultimate resolution"

Nikon will sell a bunch of D800's. They knew what they where doing putting 36 megapixels in a $3,000.00 body.

Seems to me a lot of future D800 buyers want to think that Nikon made a "opps" with the D800, or it is a D4 killer in terms of overall photo IQ.
I'm willing to bet Nikon knows what their doing.

I'm sure Nikon could have put a few more mega pixels on the D4, sacrificed some high iso, frame rates and photo IQ, but I am so happy they didn't.
 
Weird reply.
Higher res is not higher quality, stop spreading that myth.
No, it's rather the claim that higher resolution is only useful for "large prints" that is the myth. The reality is that ISO 100 film provides better quality than 400, for example.
I know of a ton of compac camera's that do not output better quality even though they had higher megapixel count than lets say a D2x.
That's because they have very small sensors which capture much less light, but given equal sensor size, the "finer grain" sensor will generally be better.
A D7000 (16megapixel) does not give a better quality photo than a D3s (12megapixel) with same lens. I have both....don't kid yourself.
We all know good quality lens are paramount.
Yes, they are paramount for the exact same reason: they're exposing to the same area of film/sensor. A lens of better quality but exposing a smaller patch of film will provide less quality regardless of film type, for example.
More detail and sharpness is not pointless....stop trying to make points we all agree on.
Higher sensor res provides more detail and sharpness. It also translate to greater contrast even when downsized.
Higher res is higher quality, just as a lens w/ more res shows higher sharpness/contrast across the spectrum.

It would seem that Nikon does know more about image quality than people who'll believe the bizarre myth that more detail and sharpness are pointless.
High megapixel does not automatically equal "ultimate quality". It means "Ultimate resolution"

Nikon will sell a bunch of D800's. They knew what they where doing putting 36 megapixels in a $3,000.00 body.

Seems to me a lot of future D800 buyers want to think that Nikon made a "opps" with the D800, or it is a D4 killer in terms of overall photo IQ.
I'm willing to bet Nikon knows what their doing.

I'm sure Nikon could have put a few more mega pixels on the D4, sacrificed some high iso, frame rates and photo IQ, but I am so happy they didn't.
 
Some pretty smart people have done quit a bit of work showing how good the D800 will be. Many people will not buy it for multiple reasons. IQ will be on the bottom of that list. It will probably have better DR at base ISO than any dslr.
 
Some pretty smart people have done quit a bit of work showing how good the D800 will be. Many people will not buy it for multiple reasons. IQ will be on the bottom of that list. It will probably have better DR at base ISO than any dslr.
I see your point. This is how I see it.

1. The theories expounded by Raw file analysts are not being disputed. We all know small pixels don't necessarily mean poor noise performance.

2. We've seen many cameras in the past which didn't perform the way theory would suggest. It's easy to find smaller sensors outperforming larger ones for noise. Look at the Nikon 1 vs M4/3 bodies. For an example of sensors in the same generation producing a noisier output when pixel counts are increased look at the Nex 5N and 7.

3. Nikon's last generation of cameras used the same sensor in two bodies differentiated by price. Canon did the same thing. This time round they've diverged and both companies are limiting the pixel count in their flagship bodies. Two sensors cost more to develop than one so margins are down on both bodies. They have a reason for doing this and in Canon's case it's clear they would have done anything necessary to compete with Nikon on low-light performance.

4. Nikon could have used any sensor they are capable of developing in any body they sell. Speed is a factor of the shutter engineering and processing speed not the pixel count. Canon have shown that a slower processor can simply be doubled, or tripled, to meet speed requirements when pixel counts rise. Nikon could produce a high-res, fast body if they choose to. It would almost certainly be cheaper to use two signal processing chips per body than to develop and fabricate a new sensor. Saying pixel counts are forced down to keep speed up doesn't make sense.

The point isn't that more pixels are bad. They're not. It's that Nikon and Canon are behaving exactly the same way and making the same decisions about how to produce their best cameras.

Both the 1D X and the D4 are being sold on the basis of their excellent noise handling. There has to be a clear advantage to justify the expense of creating two sets of internals, when both companies previously used one. Both sought the best low-light images and the result was Nikon pushed pixels up conservatively and Canon pushed them down.

If either company could bring high MP and great low-light performance to the table now they would. The theory doesn't matter in light of the fact of their actions.

We won't know exactly how the bodies perform until real tests on finished bodies are done. Until then the argument seems to be between people who trust in the theory and people who trust in the companies expertise.

I am trusting in both. I think the arguments are valid but for reasons I don't know, in 2012 both companies see a noise benefit to lowering the pixel count.

If it's not the case, and the real world performance is almost identical, for the first time in history both manufactures will have made the same huge mistake in the same generation. People will abandon the flagship bodies and we'll never see a low pixel count on a professional body again.

I think that's unlikely. I could be wrong.
 
Nikon release an amazing low MP high speed camera, and an amazing high resolution - ultimate image quality camera.

At the same time the D700 is reduced in price dramatically, and the d3s and D3x (cameras only outdone in their fields of IQ by the new Nikon pair) will be available used for less than ever.

and yet people still moan!!!! loudly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

the choose of Nikon cameras has NEVER been so good -
What specifically are their "moans"?
--

read the forums and you will see the moans from too many MPs down to Nikon didn't make the camera I wanted
Diverroy
 
Nikon release an amazing low MP high speed camera, and an amazing high resolution - ultimate image quality camera.

At the same time the D700 is reduced in price dramatically,
Reduced from what?
Is that a Dream or a Wish?
D700 still £1700

The same dream people had when 5D2 released and they were expecting reduced price on 5D (mark 1) that never happen.
and the d3s and D3x (cameras only outdone in their fields of IQ by the new Nikon pair) will be available used for less than ever.

and yet people still moan!!!! loudly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

the choose of Nikon cameras has NEVER been so good -
 

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