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hitting the a wall

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painterdude

painterdude

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I still have my S200EXR ,..and I have shot a lot of good stuff with it. The greater percentage of the images on my web site below were done with it.

Recently I have been shooting my D90 a lot ..here are some shots from last week in Edmonton ..

































These are okay ..but even with the D90 I am hitting a wall. Its the pixel wall. I find with the S200EXR or with the 12 meg D90 extreme cropping is really limited.The image breaks down. I shot a number of people shots with my D90 from a distance and wanted to isolate them into a image via extreme cropping. No go. Not enough info. My brother shooting his 5D MK2 does not experience this issue and sometimes is able to crank two or three decent images out of one randomly shot street scene ..which he then uses to paint images from ..(He also paints.) He loves that cam for that reason.

Anyways looks like the answer for me which I have been mulling over for a long while ..is simply a higher mega pixel camera ..unless I am mistaken here somehow. The NEX-7 or the new D800 look like good options ..

g
  • yes the pp in some of these was fast and crappy ..sorry bout #4 ..over cooked the sky somehow it seems !!
http://skylightvistas.weebly.com/index.html
 
This is a Fujifilm hardware forum - it is not a Nikon D90 forum, nor is it a 'photo-sharing' forum.
 
A small sensor camera may not be the answer, but would you consider the XS1 or the new HS30 as alternatives since they give you a better zoom and maybe enough detail to base a painting on?
--
Just a Pixelpusher, currently shooting Fujifilm Finepix HS10
 
painterdude said:
I still have my S200EXR ,..and I have shot a lot of good stuff with it. The greater percentage of the images on my web site below were done with it.

Recently I have been shooting my D90 a lot ..here are some shots from last week in Edmonton ..
. ..

These are okay ..but even with the D90 I am hitting a wall. Its the pixel wall. I find with the S200EXR or with the 12 meg D90 extreme cropping is really limited.The image breaks down. I shot a number of people shots with my D90 from a distance and wanted to isolate them into a image via extreme cropping. No go. Not enough info.
Click to expand...
To get better images from a higher resolution camera you'll need more than megapixels. You'll need to shoot with either very high shutter speeds or a good, solid tripod, otherwise enough camera movement, only one pixel's worth on the sensor will put you back into the D90's 12mp territory. Thom Hogan wrote an article explaining why so many Nikon shooters were complaining that their D3x photos didn't have any more detail than their D3 and D300 photos. It wasn't the camera. It wasn't the lens. It was not paying enough attention to camera shooting technique.

painterdude said:
My brother shooting his 5D MK2 does not experience this issue and sometimes is able to crank two or three decent images out of one randomly shot street scene ..which he then uses to paint images from ..(He also paints.) He loves that cam for that reason.
Click to expand...
That's really bizarre. He should be able to use a 1mp, highly compressed photo for that purpose. He's not producing 3ft x 2ft B&W prints and tracing over them with paint, is he? If you tell me that his paintings have more detail than photos I can take with my F70EXR in 5mp mode, I simply won't believe it.

painterdude said:
Anyways looks like the answer for me which I have been mulling over for a long while ..is simply a higher mega pixel camera ..unless I am mistaken here somehow. The NEX-7 or the new D800 look like good options ..
Click to expand...
Complete overkill, unless you want them for additional reasons. From the reasons you've given so far, the very slight gain you'd get from these cameras isn't, from my point of view worth the thousands of dollars that it would cost, even if you're flush in cash, Daddy Warbucks.
 
Hi there ..Always a good deal chatting with you bro ..

Ya I have my eye on the HS30 ..and I intend to see how it fares with a try out when it comes out. I will give the NEX -7 a shot as well..and will watch the responses to the D800. I will be buying something in the next few months..I really do not care what the thing cots ..well within reason. It just needs to work for me.
All the best
g

--
http://skylightvistas.weebly.com/index.html
 
Thanks for responding sans personal attacks Bill..and to such a response I shall respond.

I am going on what my brother has been sharing and what I have been seeing with close image comparisons here and on other sights. I indicated I can be mistaken on the need for more mega pixels and am open to insight on that issue.

The routine my brother has been using of late has involved a totally random approach. No tripods, no planning, no aiming ..just holding his camera over head ..aiming in the general direction of a peopled street scene with a wide angle lens ( 16-35L) cranking off a flow of shots. He then crops out segments and uses them for reference. Neither he nor I trace anything ..but rather uses bits of photos as references for often quite diverse scenes. He has showed me some of the stuff and yes it appears he indeed can get a level of detail in highly cropped images that I can't.

Given that he is working with an image some 2X as large as I have to work with ..it makes some sense..however I am unclear as to whether it is all of the reason.

As to my S200EXR and D90 I have wondered if the quality of lenses, and in the case of the S200EXR the sensor as well, are inhibiting factors..Dunno. Perhaps better results would come from examining only RAWs.

I do note that earlier top of the line DSLRs were very limited in megapixels but they were able to be blown up and cropped to a high degree ..I assume ???

Any whooo I am going to do my own hands on test soon with the NEX-7 when it comes out and I shall muck around with the HS30. Kindah been there done that with the HS20 ..but I am open to being surprised ..
Thanks for the articles ..I shall read them.
all the best
g
 
How about some shots of these paintings your brother makes? The approach he takes to making a painting sounds extremely unique, like nothing I've ever heard of before. I'd like to see the end result if possible.

--

http://fujifilmimages.aminus3.com/
 
LOL ..you rat !! Hey man I will find a way if it is a killer offering. It may indeed be more than I need..but man oh man those high pixel count images APPEAR..to have some real depth to them..in tone and detail.
g

http://skylightvistas.weebly.com/index.html
 
hi there ..and hope you are well

I only get to see what my brother is up to in person. Photos of his work I only get rarely. I will check however and see what I can do about your request. I will be staying over at his house soonish.

all the best
g
--
http://skylightvistas.weebly.com/index.html
 
Just read this re the D800:

Exactly how good the D800's image quality turns out to be is something that we're very keen to establish. On balance, increased pixel count generally counts as a good thing in everyday photography. The most important 'headline' benefits, all other things being equal, are that you get more detail in your images and greater scope for cropping . But there are potential downsides, too. The D3X, Nikon's current flagship, makes very high demands on lenses at 'only' 24MP and we wouldn't be surprised if some of the optics which D700 owners love so much don't shine quite so brightly at 100% on screen when bolted on front of a 36.3MP sensor...

--
http://skylightvistas.weebly.com/index.html
 
painterdude said:
. . .

I am going on what my brother has been sharing and what I have been seeing with close image comparisons here and on other sights. I indicated I can be mistaken on the need for more mega pixels and am open to insight on that issue.
Click to expand...
My point was that you need more resolution, and if there's something in your technique that's the limiting factor, more megapixels won't get you more resolution. When I did my Nikon DSLR vs HS10+1.7xTC comparisons, it was very easy to get the best from the HS10 but a lot harder to get the best from the D300. The main reason was mirror bounce, so with the HS10, all I had to do was use the self timer to avoid camera movement due to pressing the shutter button, and avoid shooting when gusts of wind could move the camera.

When I shot indoors, moving several feet back from the window was enough to eliminate effects from the wind. I used a good carbon fiber tripod, but a cheap one would have been good enough for the HS10. Not so for the DSLR, and I used a remote shutter release with the D300's ability to raise the mirror on the first press, and then after a second or two when vibration subsided, another press would trip the shutter. That was almost enough, but I still had to use relatively fast shutter speeds because I guess that the focal plane shutter also contributed a bit to camera movement. This is why (as I mentioned) that many D3x owners couldn't understand why they weren't seeing more detail from their 24mp camera than they used to get from the 12mp D3, D700 or D300. Forget what you may think you know about resolution from a 12mp or 16m small sensor Fuji camera. It doesn't come close to the resolution from a well shot 12mp DSLR. The problem is using good enough technique to get what the DSLR is capable of producing.

painterdude said:
The routine my brother has been using of late has involved a totally random approach. No tripods, no planning, no aiming ..just holding his camera over head ..aiming in the general direction of a peopled street scene with a wide angle lens ( 16-35L) cranking off a flow of shots. He then crops out segments and uses them for reference. Neither he nor I trace anything ..but rather uses bits of photos as references for often quite diverse scenes. He has showed me some of the stuff and yes it appears he indeed can get a level of detail in highly cropped images that I can't.
Click to expand...
I didn't think that you or your brother were literally tracing anything. I was trying to understand why even a 1mp or 2mp camera wouldn't give you enough detail. There are several reasons why you and your brother got different results. His Canon may have a quieter, gentler mirror than the D90. That's one of the advantages of the new Nikons like the D7000. Its mirror doesn't shake the camera like the D90 does. It could also be that your brother is able to hold the camera steadier that you can. There are several ways that you can test this out. One way is to swap cameras and see how your shots with the 5D Mk II compare with what your brother gets with the D90. Another way is to use your D90 the way you normally do, and take a few more shots with the D90 on a good tripod, or sitting on something flat and very heavy. Unless your hand held shots are about as good as the tripod shots, it's unlikely that more megapixels will help, unless it's mirror bounce that's the limiting factor. I found with the DSLR that sometimes I'd get more detail shooting at ISO 400 than ISO 200, just due to the faster shutter speed that it allowed. Most people wouldn't think that this would be necessary when using a good tripod.

If it really is the camera's design that's limiting the detail that you can get, I think that you might even get better hand held results using Canon's new G1 X. With its 14mp sensor that's almost as large as the D90's sensor it should provide even more detail, unlike the small sensor cameras that suffer from diffraction blurring. The NEX cameras may not have mirrors, but I've heard that they use focal plane shutters that are fairly loud and clanky. I assume that the G1 X uses an electronic shutter like the J1/V1, so it should be silent and vibration free.

painterdude said:
As to my S200EXR and D90 I have wondered if the quality of lenses, and in the case of the S200EXR the sensor as well, are inhibiting factors..Dunno. Perhaps better results would come from examining only RAWs.
Click to expand...
The S200EXR is ok, but it's really a 6mp camera where resolution is concerned. It's sort of like the 16mp HS20EXR which is basically an 8mp camera. For easy subjects like camera test charts it can match 12mp cameras, but very fine natural detail like leaves will be smudged away, making it tough to reach the detail that 10mp cameras produce. Most of Nikon's non-pro lenses are pretty good. I reposted a photo shot with a D700 and Nikon's 28-300mm Zoom lens recently and I was more than happy with the resolution. I don't know what focal length you need but on a D90 it's equivalent to a 42-450mm lens. I'm sure that you're aware that by using a longer focal length and taking 2 or 3 times as many photos, you could cover the same area and see far more detail in the shots you take. Heck, you could do this with Nikon's J1 or V1. They're only 10mp but give you more resolution than the S200EXR and you could machine gun it while waving the camera as it takes bursts at up to 60 frames/second.

painterdude said:
I do note that earlier top of the line DSLRs were very limited in megapixels but they were able to be blown up and cropped to a high degree ..I assume ???
Click to expand...
Yes. Ronnie Gaubert shot many amazing photos with his 6mp D100. You can check some of them here, and note that most of these (well, at least the first) were downsized to less than 1mp.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1039&message=37330748

painterdude said:
Thanks for the articles ..I shall read them.
Click to expand...
Articles?
 
Silent Oracle said:
G, Bill gave some sage advice - it's about more than MPs. Here are few links that you might enjoy reading:

http://gizmodo.com/5155942/giz-explains-why-more-megapixels-isnt-always-more-better
http://kenrockwell.com/tech/mpmyth.htm
http://www.digitalcamerainfo.com/content/Do-Megapixels-Matter-Anymore-17480.htm
http://www.digitaltrends.com/photography/digital-cameras-do-megapixels-matter/
Click to expand...
In the reply that I just posted, I wondered what he meant about the articles. He probably was thinking of yours. I'll add one to another article that explains one of my points more clearly, that it's better to upgrade your technique before buying new gear.

http://bythom.com/blame.htm
 
Thanks for the effort put into that response. This issue now has my interest and I shall reference the germane points raised as I try and find the true solution to higher resolution. If it is technique as opposed to more megapixels ..cool, however I am unsure how much more I can get out of my cam if it is merely an issue of technique.

Those 6 meg shots from that full frame cam were stellar..but I am thinking those loosely packed pixels lounging on that king sized sensor bed must have been akin to small basketballs...which clearly indicates that meg count is only one aspect of the resolution equation.

That said, and to unhelpfully confuse matters, it seems to me there have been threads in here detailing how more megapixels no matter what = better resolving power, even on small sensors at that ! Argh!!

Anyways, thanks ..I shall motor on and see what I can find out with practice.
The articles ..should have been THEE article ..that you referenced.
all the best
g

http://skylightvistas.weebly.com/index.html
 
Nice shots as ever, number 2 and number 7 are my personal faves.

You may be in luck, I spotted this rumour the other day

http://nikonrumors.com/2012/02/05/first-rumored-nikon-d3200-specs-are-in.aspx/

If Nikon are planning to plonk the 24mp Nex 7 into their entry level camera, that will definitely be my next DSLR, cheap, light, with great controls, a killer sensor and the cool entry level help screens for newbies. I also want more MP because I am shooting a fisheye lens and my Nikon D40 and Fuji S5 are woeful with it because spreading 6mp over 180 degrees is robbing the images of virtually all fine detail.

I will buy a monopod for the camera so I don't lose any of those 24 glorious MP in my fisheye shots.

The 24mp Sony sensor also has great DR so I am definitely holding out now for this little gem in the hope that it is real.

I might also buy a HS30 towards the end of the year when prices have tumbled and I am 100 percent content to keep the S100 for the long haul now.

--
S100, S6500, S5, F300, F200, F70, F11, F31 (deceased), Z5, V10, D40, EX1
 
hey there !!

good to hear from you again ..and glad you got something from those shots ..Man was it bitterly cold when I shot that stuff..I have decided I will,,NEVER EVER live in such a cold clime again in my Life ..Done with that whole snow/cold scene. When I got home I thanked God once again for this Island and jogged around a local lake ..in sweats...and was not a bit cold ..

Anyways talk about dropping a bomb!!! ..The NEX -7 sensor in the Nikon 3200???WOOO...rather cool thought.
Wonder what the D5200 will get if there is one ??

Thanks for this tid bit ..it really messes with the possibilities out there now doesn't it !
all the best
g!

--
http://skylightvistas.weebly.com/index.html
 
Mark H said:
This is a Fujifilm hardware forum - it is not a Nikon D90 forum, nor is it a 'photo-sharing' forum.
Click to expand...
Painter was well within the rules to post his D90 pictures here, he specifically mentioned his D90 in comparison to his S200 and presented the D90 images to illustrate points he was making about his Fuji gear. This is a gear forum and his post is gear related. There is no rule that says you cannot show third party camera images on the FTF especially if they relate to a point about Fuji gear.

Anyway, like I said before, rules are made to be broken and anyhow Painter neatly got around the stupid rules by linking the D90 images to his current and future Fuji gear with his text. Using this strategy, he can legitimately post D90 images on the FTF for the rest of 2012 and I hope he does because his images are so good.

I urge everyone to use this strategy to bust the red tape on the FTF so that anyone who wants to show their pictures on this forum feels inspired to do so, whatever camera brand they own.

Mark H you may as well drop this position and start posting your own great images, because lots of other people are and you are missing out on half the fun of the forum.

--
S100, S6500, S5, F300, F200, F70, F11, F31 (deceased), Z5, V10, D40, EX1
 
Netcopping is his life.
Wellington100 said:
Mark H said:
This is a Fujifilm hardware forum - it is not a Nikon D90 forum, nor is it a 'photo-sharing' forum.
Click to expand...
Painter was well within the rules to post his D90 pictures here, he specifically mentioned his D90 in comparison to his S200 and presented the D90 images to illustrate points he was making about his Fuji gear. This is a gear forum and his post is gear related. There is no rule that says you cannot show third party camera images on the FTF especially if they relate to a point about Fuji gear.

Anyway, like I said before, rules are made to be broken and anyhow Painter neatly got around the stupid rules by linking the D90 images to his current and future Fuji gear with his text. Using this strategy, he can legitimately post D90 images on the FTF for the rest of 2012 and I hope he does because his images are so good.

I urge everyone to use this strategy to bust the red tape on the FTF so that anyone who wants to show their pictures on this forum feels inspired to do so, whatever camera brand they own.

Mark H you may as well drop this position and start posting your own great images, because lots of other people are and you are missing out on half the fun of the forum.

--
S100, S6500, S5, F300, F200, F70, F11, F31 (deceased), Z5, V10, D40, EX1
Click to expand...
--

“There is only you and your camera. The limitations in your photography are in yourself, for what we see is what we are.” Ernst Haas

http://garyp.zenfolio.com/p518883873/
 
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