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D800E & Video: Philip Bloom

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bob elkind said:
There really is no point in discussing this.
  • The video output of the D800 and D800e are at most 1920x1080 resolution, roughly 2Mpixel down-sampled from roughly 36Mpixel. Hence, there is no resolution advantage to be had in the D800e, compared to the D800, for video purposes.
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Unfortunately, it isn't down sampled, it is sub sampled moire in dslr video is a problem even in dslrs with aa filters

Only a portion of the sensels are used and they are quite far apart in such a high sensel count imager

If the aa filters was constructed such that blurred enough for light to cover adjacent sensels in video mode, still pictures would look like crap

Now it is possible Nikon is sampling in groups of sensels, like the canon c300 in which case there would be a difference

Also one of he crop video modes might benefit, but I doubt that

It could very well be that for video, there is no difference

Certainly in nikons literature I can find no mention of a difference in video mode between the cameras

Perhaps Nikon will clarify this or we will see some comparisons of vide from the two cameras
 
David314 said:
bob elkind said:
There really is no point in discussing this.
  • The video output of the D800 and D800e are at most 1920x1080 resolution, roughly 2Mpixel down-sampled from roughly 36Mpixel. Hence, there is no resolution advantage to be had in the D800e, compared to the D800, for video purposes.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
David314 said:
Unfortunately, it isn't down sampled, it is sub sampled moire in dslr video is a problem even in dslrs with aa filters
Click to expand...
You don't know how the D800 develops its video output.
David314 said:
Only a portion of the sensels are used and they are quite far apart in such a high sensel count imager
Click to expand...
You don't know how the D800 develops its video output.
David314 said:
If the aa filters was constructed such that blurred enough for light to cover adjacent sensels in video mode, still pictures would look like crap
Click to expand...
No-one is suggesting such a design.
David314 said:
Now it is possible Nikon is sampling in groups of sensels, like the canon c300 in which case there would be a difference
Click to expand...
In other words, you don't know how the D800 develops its video output.

Once aliasing is captured by the D800e, there is no comprehensive (100% foolproof, 100% of the time) impairment-free means for correction. This is true for still images and for video. Agreed?

--
Bob Elkind

Family, mostly sports. Seriously, folks, I'm not that good. If I can do it, you can do it!
photo galleries at http://eteam.zenfolio.com
my relationship with my camera is strictly photonic
 
studio311 said:
Here's a quote from Philip Bloom on the D800E & video / moire:

"Oh…one last thing, any video shooters out there AVOID the D800E. It has no low pass filter which means aliasing and moire hell! It is designed to give more detail and resolution. We don’t need it!"

Read full article here: http://philipbloom.net/2012/02/07/d800/
Click to expand...
Since the D800/D800E will downsample like crazy to make 1920 (X res) images from a 7360 res sensor I'd venture to guess that there will be little to no difference between the D800 and D800E once that data makes it's way to a video file format. If the sensor was 1920x1080 and had no AA filter that would probably make for dramatic moire I'd guess. But each pixel on that 1920 video file will be made of the average of about 15 actual pixels that's a LOT of anti-aliasing. No physical AA required.

All that said, for 1920 video, there's no reason to remove the AA filter, as it won't give you (much if any) more resolution.
 
bob elkind said:
David314 said:
bob elkind said:
There really is no point in discussing this.
  • The video output of the D800 and D800e are at most 1920x1080 resolution, roughly 2Mpixel down-sampled from roughly 36Mpixel. Hence, there is no resolution advantage to be had in the D800e, compared to the D800, for video purposes.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
bob elkind said:
Unfortunately, it isn't down sampled, it is sub sampled moire in dslr video is a problem even in dslrs with aa filters
Click to expand...
You don't know how the D800 develops its video output.
Click to expand...
Considering it offers cropp modes for video, I would wager that like all previous dslrs, it ain't using all sensors
bob elkind said:
bob elkind said:
Only a portion of the sensels are used and they are quite far apart in such a high sensel count imager
Click to expand...
You don't know how the D800 develops its video output.
Click to expand...
And neither do you and neither does mr. Bloom
bob elkind said:
bob elkind said:
If the aa filters was constructed such that blurred enough for light to cover adjacent sensels in video mode, still pictures would look like crap
Click to expand...
No-one is suggesting such as design.
Click to expand...
bob elkind said:
bob elkind said:
Now it is possible Nikon is sampling in groups of sensels, like the canon c300 in which case there would be a difference
Click to expand...
In other words, you don't know how the D800 develops its video output.
Click to expand...
bob elkind said:
Once aliasing is captured by the D800e, there is no comprehensive (100% foolproof, 100% of the time) impairment-free means for correction. This is true for still images and for video. Agreed?
Click to expand...
Sure but as you so eloquently pointed out we don't know how Nikon samples the sensels for video

I would love to be wrong, but I am guessing it is more like all previous dslrs which suffer from moire

If Nikon is using a majority of sensels in creating video, that would be huge, both in terms of bandwidth and impact on the video industry

I sort of imagine Nikon would make a bigger deal of it if this was the case

So the bottom line is, we don't know Nikon captures sensel data for video so no one can say at this point if the d800 or d800e has any difference for video
 
If the D800 or D800E is taking samples from a sub set of non adjacent pixels rather than averaging all pixel BOTH of them would have horrible artefacts, probably moire and certainly awful low light performance.

I'll bet good money these cameras "downsample" using all the pixels in the imaging area being used for the selected crop/aspect.

The pontification on this AA filter subject based on pure speculation and little more knowledge than what can be learned by the Nikon press release is amazing. People who wouldn't know an AA filter from their nose suddenly are speaking like they are Harry Nyquist reincarnate.
bob elkind said:
David314 said:
bob elkind said:
There really is no point in discussing this.
  • The video output of the D800 and D800e are at most 1920x1080 resolution, roughly 2Mpixel down-sampled from roughly 36Mpixel. Hence, there is no resolution advantage to be had in the D800e, compared to the D800, for video purposes.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
bob elkind said:
Unfortunately, it isn't down sampled, it is sub sampled moire in dslr video is a problem even in dslrs with aa filters
Click to expand...
You don't know how the D800 develops its video output.
bob elkind said:
Only a portion of the sensels are used and they are quite far apart in such a high sensel count imager
Click to expand...
You don't know how the D800 develops its video output.
bob elkind said:
If the aa filters was constructed such that blurred enough for light to cover adjacent sensels in video mode, still pictures would look like crap
Click to expand...
No-one is suggesting such a design.
bob elkind said:
Now it is possible Nikon is sampling in groups of sensels, like the canon c300 in which case there would be a difference
Click to expand...
In other words, you don't know how the D800 develops its video output.

Once aliasing is captured by the D800e, there is no comprehensive (100% foolproof, 100% of the time) impairment-free means for correction. This is true for still images and for video. Agreed?

--
Bob Elkind

Family, mostly sports. Seriously, folks, I'm not that good. If I can do it, you can do it!
photo galleries at http://eteam.zenfolio.com
my relationship with my camera is strictly photonic
Click to expand...
 
Hi Bob,

I am curious about how the D800 derives its video frames. We've puzzled over the possibility that Nikon is doing something beyond just line-skipping at this point. But it looks like they are not doing just a straight downsampling from a full-frame capture. Any ideas?

This makes me wonder about the role of the AA filter, which is calibrated to full-frame sampling. Does this actually have the same benefit in a line-skipping situation, where the spatial frequencies are altered significantly?
 
I don't think any DSLR derives video frames from full-frame captures yet. But at the same time, we're not sure that the D800 uses simple line-skipping either. It seems to be something in between, and Nikon is keeping quiet about it.
dylanear said:
studio311 said:
Here's a quote from Philip Bloom on the D800E & video / moire:

"Oh…one last thing, any video shooters out there AVOID the D800E. It has no low pass filter which means aliasing and moire hell! It is designed to give more detail and resolution. We don’t need it!"

Read full article here: http://philipbloom.net/2012/02/07/d800/
Click to expand...
Since the D800/D800E will downsample like crazy to make 1920 (X res) images from a 7360 res sensor I'd venture to guess that there will be little to no difference between the D800 and D800E once that data makes it's way to a video file format. If the sensor was 1920x1080 and had no AA filter that would probably make for dramatic moire I'd guess. But each pixel on that 1920 video file will be made of the average of about 15 actual pixels that's a LOT of anti-aliasing. No physical AA required.

All that said, for 1920 video, there's no reason to remove the AA filter, as it won't give you (much if any) more resolution.
Click to expand...
 
David314 said:
dylanear said:
If the D800 or D800E is taking samples from a sub set of non adjacent pixels rather than averaging all pixel BOTH of them would have horrible artefacts, probably moire and certainly awful low light performance.
Click to expand...
Unfortunately, that is how things currently work in the dslr world

http://techcrunch.com/2008/12/02/for-image-quality-buffs-dslr-video-is-off-the-table/
Click to expand...
Interesting info. That's sad. I really hope Nikon is downsampling, but they may not be, 36MP is a awful lot of data to read off the sensor at 30fps so I really doubt that's happening. I was assuming the pixel "binning" was being done on the sensor chip, but that is an assumption.

I was hoping there would be a 4 into one pixel binned RAW (or 16bit TIFF) mode for fast shooting, 9MP. I'd love to know more about that sensors handles data.
 
Luke Kaven said:
Hi Bob,

I am curious about how the D800 derives its video frames. We've puzzled over the possibility that Nikon is doing something beyond just line-skipping at this point. But it looks like they are not doing just a straight downsampling from a full-frame capture. Any ideas?

This makes me wonder about the role of the AA filter, which is calibrated to full-frame sampling. Does this actually have the same benefit in a line-skipping situation, where the spatial frequencies are altered significantly?
Click to expand...
Well the AA filter would pull a bit of light that would be hitting unsampled pixels and put it on active sensors, but that effect is probably small compared to the effect of skipping more pixel than not.

I still can't see the AA filter making much difference in video given that either A: so many pixel are being downsized, or B: so many pixels are being thrown away. The AA filter is all about slightly mixing adjacent pixels. Either of those techniques is going to make that less important than in stills.

Can't wait to see D800 and D800E video compared in controlled A to B conditions. I doubt huge differences, but I suspect there will be unexpected results once the two cameras are compared closely, still and video.
 
dylanear said:
Can't wait to see D800 and D800E video compared in controlled A to B conditions. I doubt huge differences, but I suspect there will be unexpected results once the two cameras are compared closely, still and video.
Click to expand...
That's right, and Philip did not use the camera yet so he may be right the D800 has less video issues but he may be wrong that the E is "a lot" worse. He and everyone who has not tested both together also doesn't know that the E may be sharper with higher resolution and the D800 might look a little soft for video.

I think the D800E might be THE pro dslr video camera of the moment.
 
ScottMac said:
dylanear said:
Can't wait to see D800 and D800E video compared in controlled A to B conditions. I doubt huge differences, but I suspect there will be unexpected results once the two cameras are compared closely, still and video.
Click to expand...
That's right, and Philip did not use the camera yet so he may be right the D800 has less video issues but he may be wrong that the E is "a lot" worse. He and everyone who has not tested both together also doesn't know that the E may be sharper with higher resolution and the D800 might look a little soft for video.

I think the D800E might be THE pro dslr video camera of the moment.
Click to expand...
Well, as we've said, no one outside Nikon knows. But I doubt the E will offer much if any advantage, I just doubt the E will be crippled by moire on video either.
 
dylanear said:
If the D800 or D800E is taking samples from a sub set of non adjacent pixels rather than averaging all pixel BOTH of them would have horrible artefacts, probably moire and certainly awful low light performance.
Click to expand...
Neither "skipping" not averaging are good designs for downsampling. I'll save the lecture for another post in another thread, but the quick summary is that averaging represents horrible blurring and skipping represents horrible aliasing in the result. Skipping would exacerbate any aliasing introduced as a result of the D800e lacking a proper antialiasing filter.
dylanear said:
I'll bet good money these cameras "downsample" using all the pixels in the imaging area being used for the selected crop/aspect.
Click to expand...
We'll see in good time.
dylanear said:
The pontification on this AA filter subject based on pure speculation and little more knowledge than what can be learned by the Nikon press release is amazing. People who wouldn't know an AA filter from their nose suddenly are speaking like they are Harry Nyquist reincarnate.
Click to expand...
Agreed 100%. The original point of controversy is Philip Bloom's statement, which is based on the undeniable truth that aliasing is bad. Downsampling, by any means, does not "undo" aliasing (in fact, it can be made considerably worse with "line-skipping"), and that is what some people cannot grasp.

--
Bob Elkind

Family, mostly sports. Seriously, folks, I'm not that good. If I can do it, you can do it!
photo galleries at http://eteam.zenfolio.com
my relationship with my camera is strictly photonic
 
Luke Kaven said:
Hi Bob,

I am curious about how the D800 derives its video frames. We've puzzled over the possibility that Nikon is doing something beyond just line-skipping at this point. But it looks like they are not doing just a straight downsampling from a full-frame capture. Any ideas?
Click to expand...
Yes, and I've posted my speculations already in another thread among the seemingly endless procession of D800 threads. Marianne has challenged me to compose a tutorial on the subject, which I've started but not finished. This is a tough and stiff-necked audience, and I want to get it right from the start.

It's clear this will be an ongoing discussion topic.
Luke Kaven said:
This makes me wonder about the role of the AA filter, which is calibrated to full-frame sampling. Does this actually have the same benefit in a line-skipping situation, where the spatial frequencies are altered significantly?
Click to expand...
It is even more essential in a "line-skipping" (or sample-dropping) situation.
--
Bob Elkind

Family, mostly sports. Seriously, folks, I'm not that good. If I can do it, you can do it!
photo galleries at http://eteam.zenfolio.com
my relationship with my camera is strictly photonic
 
dylanear said:
Since the D800/D800E will downsample like crazy to make 1920 (X res) images from a 7360 res sensor I'd venture to guess that there will be little to no difference between the D800 and D800E once that data makes it's way to a video file format.
Click to expand...
Most of the time you will be right. Occasionally you will be wrong. In the right circumstances, you will be very wrong. In video, patterns happen.
dylanear said:
... But each pixel on that 1920 video file will be made of the average of about 15 actual pixels that's a LOT of anti-aliasing. No physical AA required.
Click to expand...
This is utterly wrong. A cross-hatch pattern which closely (but not identically) matches the sampling positions ("sensels") can alias as a broad, dark cloud or a bright coloured field. A small position shift can changed the aliased dark cloud to a bright field. The R and B planes are much more sensitive to such aliasing than the G plane.

So downsampling is not an antidote for aliasing.
dylanear said:
All that said, for 1920 video, there's no reason to remove the AA filter, as it won't give you (much if any) more resolution.
Click to expand...
You are half right.

--
Bob Elkind

Family, mostly sports. Seriously, folks, I'm not that good. If I can do it, you can do it!
photo galleries at http://eteam.zenfolio.com
my relationship with my camera is strictly photonic
 
David314 said:
So the bottom line is, we don't know Nikon captures sensel data for video so no one can say at this point if the d800 or d800e has any difference for video
Click to expand...
We know that aliasing artifacts have no limit in the worst-case circumstances, and that downsampling is not a completely effective cure for aliasing (in fact, it can exacerbate aliasing artifacts). So yes, we can say that selecting the D800e is unwise for professional video purposes.

--
Bob Elkind

Family, mostly sports. Seriously, folks, I'm not that good. If I can do it, you can do it!
photo galleries at http://eteam.zenfolio.com
my relationship with my camera is strictly photonic
 
You can say that, but you'd be speculating.
bob elkind said:
We know that aliasing artifacts have no limit in the worst-case circumstances, and that downsampling is not a completely effective cure for aliasing (in fact, it can exacerbate aliasing artifacts). So yes, we can say that selecting the D800e is unwise for professional video purposes.
Click to expand...
 
Bob....thank you for be a saving grace to this thread.
bob elkind said:
There really is no point in discussing this.
  • The video output of the D800 and D800e are at most 1920x1080 resolution, roughly 2Mpixel down-sampled from roughly 36Mpixel. Hence, there is no resolution advantage to be had in the D800e, compared to the D800, for video purposes.
  • Moire or other aliasing artifacts in the D800e can very well be manifested in the video output of the D800e. We know this because moire aliasing artifacts have been proven and demonstrated in other sensors without anti-aliasing filters, and the D800e sensor behaves very much like other sensors in this context.
These are not opinions, these are fundamental characteristics of any sampling device without an anti-aliasing filter. You are welcome to castigate Philip Bloom for not having demonstrated the problem personally, but you are doing so in ignorance of fundamental and proven principles which do not need to be re-proven for each and every camera on the market.

So spare the indignant outrage. Philip Bloom is doing us all a favour, and he is not your evil enemy. Accept helpful and instructive advice from someone who is knowledgeable and experienced and accomplished in this field.

--
Bob Elkind

Family, mostly sports. Seriously, folks, I'm not that good. If I can do it, you can do it!
photo galleries at http://eteam.zenfolio.com
my relationship with my camera is strictly photonic
Click to expand...
 
dylanear said:
You can say that, but you'd be speculating.
Click to expand...
Which statements do you consider speculation:
  • aliasing artifacts have no limit in worst-case circumstances
  • downsampling is not a completely effective cure for aliasing
  • downsampling can exacerbate aliasing artifacts
  • D800e has no anti-aliasing filter
  • D800e is more susceptible to aliasing than D800
--
Bob Elkind

Family, mostly sports. Seriously, folks, I'm not that good. If I can do it, you can do it!
photo galleries at http://eteam.zenfolio.com
my relationship with my camera is strictly photonic
 
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