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Pentax 645D vs D800 Image Quality

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Kesha270057

Kesha270057

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Thank you Jonny1976 for your thread in the neighbour forums.

All your research for D800 IQ vs 645D is very true, it is different league, Camaro vs Roll Royce.

I saw many photos from 645D in this forum and internet, they certainly has the extremely good IQ but the sample of D800 are just okay, but not to wow factors.

D800's IQ is not far from D7000 or K5, so why to buy a camera that just give you double size with double price, with the same iso but lower fps?

--
------------------------------------------
-- Rusma

my multiply : http://kesha.multiply.com
 
Kesha said:
Thank you Jonny1976 for your thread in the neighbour forums.

All your research for D800 IQ vs 645D is very true, it is different league, Camaro vs Roll Royce.
Click to expand...
Johnny isn't a neutral observer. 645D scores about the same as K-5 on dxomark. D800 will easily do better than both (if the sensor tech in D800 is same as K-5). As I said, wait for studio shots on IR. It's too early to claim anything.
Kesha270057 said:
D800's IQ is not far from D7000 or K5, so why to buy a camera that just give you double size with double price, with the same iso but lower fps?
Click to expand...
I find this double standard funny. So D800 isn't as good as 645D because 645D has a larger sensor than D800, but K-5 is just as good as D800, even though K-5 sensor is smaller than D800 (and the resolution difference between 16 MP vs 36 MP is far larger than 36 MP vs 40 MP).

Could it be that you are just biased, so both K-5 and 645D are good, but D800 just not so good, in your world?
 
Bigger viewfinder, shallower DOF, higher resolution, more crop factor, bigger prints, plus the 16bit images & ISO 50 will all show the sensor is a champion on DxO.

The IQ on the 645d is still better as you mention, but the FX D800 is a step up from APS-C, and it's the first time this has happened in a few years really.

I will happily take the Pentax fullframe equiv to the D800/e for the same price.
--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/autisticreaction/
 
Freestyler said:
I will happily take the Pentax fullframe equiv to the D800/e for the same price.
Click to expand...
I can't help but think that if the D800 had've been the long awaited Pentax FF DSLR then we'd 'all be here taking pot shots at it's specs. ie. not high enough ISO capability, not enough fps, too many megapickles, RAW files too big, too expensive etc etc.

Yet the rest of the market, (outside of this sub-forum), loves it.

Personally I'd love to have something like this with a K-mount. Makes a lot more sense than buying a 645D.
--
Zooms? pfffft!
 
sir_bazz said:
I can't help but think that if the D800 had've been the long awaited Pentax FF DSLR then we'd 'all be here taking pot shots at it's specs.
Click to expand...
Indeed you can be sure that Pentaxians will find a way to hate whatever Pentax (or anyone else) will or would of done.

But in this case I think it's exactly what the fullframe market needed, even the price is quite decent for an opening price. Can't help but think of how much I would of loved Pentax if they had of been first with this sensor and a fullframe option.

I'm sure whatever they do now they will be considered the bridesmaid and not the bride.
Member said:
Zooms? pfffft!
Click to expand...
Hehehe, Yeah the joy of FA's Ltds on a 36.3Mp K-5ish bodied full frame makes me giddy.

--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/autisticreaction/
 
ET2, as I said, the Image Quality.

I got the Jonny1976 points, the image from 645D is not same with D800, although they have almost enough Mpix.
It is not about the ISO, but the IQ.
ET2 said:
Kesha said:
Thank you Jonny1976 for your thread in the neighbour forums.

All your research for D800 IQ vs 645D is very true, it is different league, Camaro vs Roll Royce.
Click to expand...
Johnny isn't a neutral observer. 645D scores about the same as K-5 on dxomark. D800 will easily do better than both (if the sensor tech in D800 is same as K-5). As I said, wait for studio shots on IR. It's too early to claim anything.
Click to expand...
Studio shot on IR, you mean Infrared?

I have studio shot on Infrared, used my old and dinosaurus age Pentax K10D, but I like the CCD for IR.

here are some:





I didn't do any masking of those photos.

In Studio, when you have a good setup light, and shot with base ISO, it is not very far the photo from APS-C to FF, but medium format is a different story.
ET2 said:
ET2 said:
D800's IQ is not far from D7000 or K5, so why to buy a camera that just give you double size with double price, with the same iso but lower fps?
Click to expand...
I find this double standard funny. So D800 isn't as good as 645D because 645D has a larger sensor than D800, but K-5 is just as good as D800, even though K-5 sensor is smaller than D800 (and the resolution difference between 16 MP vs 36 MP is far larger than 36 MP vs 40 MP).

Could it be that you are just biased, so both K-5 and 645D are good, but D800 just not so good, in your world?
Click to expand...
No, I mean D800's best IQ is not up to 645D's best IQ.

D800 is a good camera, but the IQ is on par with D7000 or K5 (as what I saw in the samples), not for 645D.

--
------------------------------------------
-- Rusma

my multiply : http://kesha.multiply.com
 
sure, I am consider also for Pentax FF, because of the DOF.
I am thinking to modify the body to infrared, if available.
Freestyler said:
Bigger viewfinder, shallower DOF, higher resolution, more crop factor, bigger prints, plus the 16bit images & ISO 50 will all show the sensor is a champion on DxO.

The IQ on the 645d is still better as you mention, but the FX D800 is a step up from APS-C, and it's the first time this has happened in a few years really.

I will happily take the Pentax fullframe equiv to the D800/e for the same price.
--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/autisticreaction/
Click to expand...
--
------------------------------------------
-- Rusma

my multiply : http://kesha.multiply.com
 
ET2 said:
Kesha said:
Thank you Jonny1976 for your thread in the neighbour forums.

All your research for D800 IQ vs 645D is very true, it is different league, Camaro vs Roll Royce.
Click to expand...
Johnny isn't a neutral observer. 645D scores about the same as K-5 on dxomark. D800 will easily do better than both (if the sensor tech in D800 is same as K-5). As I said, wait for studio shots on IR. It's too early to claim anything.
Click to expand...
I am not a neutral observer neither as I use K-5, 645D, D700 and D3s.

The D800 sensor shares the same sensor technology than the K-5 and does even feature the same pixel density (the D800 in DX mode shoots nearly 16MP). But the sensor has likely become some small tweaks since the dev. of the K-5/D7000 sensor which will result in a slight better score on dxomark.
ET2 said:
ET2 said:
D800's IQ is not far from D7000 or K5, so why to buy a camera that just give you double size with double price, with the same iso but lower fps?
Click to expand...
I find this double standard funny. So D800 isn't as good as 645D because 645D has a larger sensor than D800, but K-5 is just as good as D800, even though K-5 sensor is smaller than D800 (and the resolution difference between 16 MP vs 36 MP is far larger than 36 MP vs 40 MP).

Could it be that you are just biased, so both K-5 and 645D are good, but D800 just not so good, in your world?
Click to expand...
I do not talk about sensor size but sensor technology. The K-5, D7000 and D800 CMOS sensors have been trimmed for wonderful high iso performance and video capabilities. The 645D CCD sensor has been trimmed for best low ISO performance. When I compare my photos at base iso from the K-5 and 645D with the base iso samples of D800, the CMOS photos show a rather plastic color rendition with less microcontrast than the CCD photos featuring also a much richer color rendition.

For high iso performance, I do not really care, I use the D3s and soon D4.

CMOS sensors allow better high iso performance, live view and video capabilities, but in terms of image quality, they do not compete on the CCD sensor level.
--
Dominique

International Press Association
http://ipaimpress.com/author/dominique/

http://www.pbase.com/tcom
http://www.flickr.com/photos/dschreckling/
 
Kesha said:
No, I mean D800's best IQ is not up to 645D's best IQ.

D800 is a good camera, but the IQ is on par with D7000 or K5 (as what I saw in the samples), not for 645D.
Click to expand...
D800 IQ would be closer to 645D (definitively higher score than 645D on dxomark) than K-5 would be to D800. That's my prediction based on common sense --- and you will find it out too once the reviews and studio samples (and dxomark scores) are posted.

(1) D800 IQ > K -5 (no doubt about that)

(2) D800 vs 645D? 645D will win the resolution match, but overall IQ, will put my money on D800, especially D800 will have better DR than 645D.
 
Dom, I am still amazing how you can play with that expensive things.

Photos are photos, when we do some work we will expect for the "best", and you are very lucky that you can chase to that "best" limit, and you know how to do that limit.
Love to see your 645D shots again.
tcom said:
ET2 said:
Kesha said:
Thank you Jonny1976 for your thread in the neighbour forums.

All your research for D800 IQ vs 645D is very true, it is different league, Camaro vs Roll Royce.
Click to expand...
Johnny isn't a neutral observer. 645D scores about the same as K-5 on dxomark. D800 will easily do better than both (if the sensor tech in D800 is same as K-5). As I said, wait for studio shots on IR. It's too early to claim anything.
Click to expand...
I am not a neutral observer neither as I use K-5, 645D, D700 and D3s.

The D800 sensor shares the same sensor technology than the K-5 and does even feature the same pixel density (the D800 in DX mode shoots nearly 16MP). But the sensor has likely become some small tweaks since the dev. of the K-5/D7000 sensor which will result in a slight better score on dxomark.
tcom said:
tcom said:
D800's IQ is not far from D7000 or K5, so why to buy a camera that just give you double size with double price, with the same iso but lower fps?
Click to expand...
I find this double standard funny. So D800 isn't as good as 645D because 645D has a larger sensor than D800, but K-5 is just as good as D800, even though K-5 sensor is smaller than D800 (and the resolution difference between 16 MP vs 36 MP is far larger than 36 MP vs 40 MP).

Could it be that you are just biased, so both K-5 and 645D are good, but D800 just not so good, in your world?
Click to expand...
I do not talk about sensor size but sensor technology. The K-5, D7000 and D800 CMOS sensors have been trimmed for wonderful high iso performance and video capabilities. The 645D CCD sensor has been trimmed for best low ISO performance. When I compare my photos at base iso from the K-5 and 645D with the base iso samples of D800, the CMOS photos show a rather plastic color rendition with less microcontrast than the CCD photos featuring also a much richer color rendition.

For high iso performance, I do not really care, I use the D3s and soon D4.

CMOS sensors allow better high iso performance, live view and video capabilities, but in terms of image quality, they do not compete on the CCD sensor level.
--
Dominique

International Press Association
http://ipaimpress.com/author/dominique/

http://www.pbase.com/tcom
http://www.flickr.com/photos/dschreckling/
Click to expand...
--
------------------------------------------
-- Rusma

my multiply : http://kesha.multiply.com
 
Dear ET2, things are therefore simple: you sell your K5 and your D645, and you buy one D800 and one D800E. Everything is resolved smoothly. Where is the problem ?
--
JLS
 
tcom said:
The D800 sensor shares the same sensor technology than the K-5 and does even feature the same pixel density (the D800 in DX mode shoots nearly 16MP). But the sensor has likely become some small tweaks since the dev. of the K-5/D7000 sensor which will result in a slight better score on dxomark.
Click to expand...
This is not true. Even if D800 sensor tech is identical to D7000 (and let's assume it is), then D800, given it's 36 MP, will score much higher than D7000. That's because Dxomark scores are calculated by normalizing all cameras to 8 MP. Obviously, the gain from down-sampling 16 MP to 8 MP would be lower than down-sampling 36 MP to 8 MP. So D800, even if it performs identically to D7000 at pixel level, will score much higher than D7000 when both are normilzed to 8 MP. That's how Dxomark calculates scores; they normalize everything to 8 MP.

In fact, I won't be surprised if D800 becomes the highest rated camera ever on dxomark.
 
ET2, pls see this D800 shot.

h t t p: cmphotography.com/images/content/Cliff_Mautner_40.jpg

the halos from the black fabric is very annoying my screen.

h t t p: cmphotography.com/images/content/Cliff_Mautner_D800_04.JPG

the eyes are extremely sharp, but it seem it lost its soul.

I don't know it is overdone sharpness from the owner or it is the D800's standard
ET2 said:
Kesha said:
No, I mean D800's best IQ is not up to 645D's best IQ.

D800 is a good camera, but the IQ is on par with D7000 or K5 (as what I saw in the samples), not for 645D.
Click to expand...
D800 IQ would be closer to 645D (definitively higher score than 645D on dxomark) than K-5 would be to D800. That's my prediction based on common sense --- and you will find it out too once the reviews and studio samples (and dxomark scores) are posted.

(1) D800 IQ > K -5 (no doubt about that)

(2) D800 vs 645D? 645D will win the resolution match, but overall IQ, will put my money on D800, especially D800 will have better DR than 645D.
Click to expand...
Just to refresh you before you loose your money:

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/2010_mini_medium_format_shoot_out.shtml

If you think D800 can beats Phase One, Leica and Canon 1Ds MKIII, you can read somewhere on the article:

"The Canon 1Ds MkIII images are not competitive with any of the others presented above, but I say more about this at the end of the article."

--
------------------------------------------
-- Rusma

my multiply : http://kesha.multiply.com
 
Hi Dom

Spot on the IQ of an image seems more close related to Tech and Bucket size than Pixel density

CCD produces much less noise per pixel and as such requires considerably less image processing in camera.

This can be seen even from the K10d Vs K5 the 2 generation newer Cmos in the K5 only just matches the k10d @ iso 100 even with a 60% increase in pixel count.

This gain is easily noticeable at low ISO but as the sensitivity is increased CMOS gains the advantage with less noise and equal image processing required.

As a rough indication (and some guess work)

D7000 pixel =4.75 uM
d800 pixel = 4.8 uM
645d Pixel = 6uM

Given the CCD tech in the 645d and its greater SNR per pixel I would expect this advantage to be noticeable in low ISO images

Indeed early indication make this point where the colour fidelity and perceived detail is greater for the 645d than the difference in Mp would indicate.

Any advantage the d800 has over the d7000 besides the stop gain in perceived image (if viewed at the same size) will be a direct result of Sony Tech and higher quality components in the camera rather than a inherit advantage of the larger sensor.

I look forward to user reports on the camera as it really looks the biz if you want a stil/video hybrid that truly looks like its the master of both for the advance amateur consumer.

I also agree with the comment within this thread that if it had Pentax on the front it would have been well and truly spanked. This must be a major concern to Pentax if they do have any FF plans as I very much doubt they could produce a FF camera any where near this feature list.

If the Tech holds true the a FF camera based on current CMOS will require about 60 Mega pixles to match the current 40 Megapixel CCD unit in the 645D for Human viewed images at base ISO.

--
My PPG
http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/artists/andrewwaldram
My Photo Stream
http://www.flickr.com/photos/awaldram/
1x.com
http://1x.com/artist/awaldram/wall
 
Kesha said:
Dom, I am still amazing how you can play with that expensive things.
Click to expand...
Well, yes, I came to the conclusion that there is no camera shining in all situations I want to cover.
  • when needing a light setup: K-5
  • when needing fast AF and/or high ISO capabilities: D700 + D3s. The D700 is now sold and I am going to replace it by the D4.
  • when needing an extra high resolution or fantastic colors: 645D
At the moment, I am tempted by the D800E (which I already ordered but unsure if I keep the order given the sample shots published so far). I do not really have the need or a special purpose for this, it is more wondering how it performs against the 645D. The D800E is certainly more flexible than the 645D, but the 645D feels better in the hands than the D700/D3s.
Kesha270057 said:
Photos are photos, when we do some work we will expect for the "best", and you are very lucky that you can chase to that "best" limit, and you know how to do that limit.
Click to expand...
True, I can take the best suited camera for a given purpose.
Kesha270057 said:
Love to see your 645D shots again.
Click to expand...
Thank you Rusma.

--
Dominique

International Press Association
http://ipaimpress.com/author/dominique/

http://www.pbase.com/tcom
http://www.flickr.com/photos/dschreckling/
 
awaldram said:
I also agree with the comment within this thread that if it had Pentax on the front it would have been well and truly spanked.
Click to expand...
lol @ that. Both K-5 and Kx got universal positive reviews. Why D800 would have been spanked if it was Pentax branded? That's just outright stupid statement.

If D800 had Pentax on the front, most here would have called it the greatest thing since the slice bread.
 
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