Explaining the D4

MrSkelter

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The D800 is a triumph as people here know. It's price/performance is astounding and it'll be loved by the many people who'll buy one.

That said there seems to be confusion one the place of the D4. As someone who've able to buy both I've been thinking about them relative to each other and will share why I'm still buying a D4.

1. Build. The D4 is a tougher camera. Even the card-bay-doors are metal. That makes a difference to a few people. To that few, it's vital.

2. Speed. The big one. The D4 is faster. If you need the speed the D800 is no substitute.

3. Resolution. The D4's files are smaller but large enough for 99.9% of uses (including fashion, landscape and portrait work which are all being done today, on DSLRS with fewer pixels). The world kept turing when the Ds MkII was resolution champ. Magazines didn't shrink. Billboards weren't all shot on MF backs. If you're shooting away from home, being able to transfer files faster (more than twice as fast) matters. Extra pixels are literally a waste of time.

4. Precision. Given enough resolution for almost any scenario, the benefit of the 36MP sensor is cropping. This is most useful if you don't have lenses with the framing you need, or you're not able to capture the who you need in the moment. Professional D4 users have all the glass they need and are skilled in getting the framing right.

This isn't to suggest the D800 isn't awesome. If it was faster I'd have one. That said the D4 is Nikon's flagship and meant for a very specific market. Professional shooters working for publication.

I think the extreme excitement is because the forums are dominated by landscape shooters and amateurs. Landscape shooters ability to use tripods, wait for light and use long exposures means they have the ability to compensate for things which make the D800 impossible, or impractical, for those that don't. Amateurs don't have the glass, the money, or the skill to exploit the full potential of lower-resolution cameras because their photos are made in the edit and need to be cropped.

Unless you're printing a crop, or at a a giant size AND that giant print will be viewed close-up - which is incredibly rare - the D800's file are bigger than you'll need.

What they do offer is the ability to reduce size, and reduce noise, without eating detail. This is how the files will be used in the real world most of the time. Appearing in print, or online, at normal sizes with NR applied when used at higher ISO.

For those shooters they'll have a cheaper, smaller, less robust camera with a much smaller shot-per-charge capacity. Their images will look almost as good as the D4's after noise reduction at higher ISO, and better at low ISO if used very, very large - which will e almost never.

That's a reasonable set of compromises and the one Nikon are selling. The D800 doesn't make the D4 redundant. It slots in below it, exactly as it's supposed to. It'll be very hard to find an outlet in which the D800's resolution is visible (unless you're cropping or shooting at low ISO in controlled conditions).

With the D4 you're buying a lot of advantages that professionals crave, and losing some of the 'cushion' that amateurs rely on and features some professionals (product photographers, MF guys and landscape shooters etc., don't need.)

The D4 is the best 35mm camera Nikon have ever made. The D800 is a good 35mm and an amazing small MF body, which predictably lacks the speed and strength of a best 35mm bodies.

It's a great time to be a photographer. The future looks exciting.
 
The D800 is a triumph as people here know. It's price/performance is astounding and it'll be loved by the many people who'll buy one.

That said there seems to be confusion one the place of the D4. As someone who've able to buy both I've been thinking about them relative to each other and will share why I'm still buying a D4.

1. Build. The D4 is a tougher camera. Even the card-bay-doors are metal. That makes a difference to a few people. To that few, it's vital.

2. Speed. The big one. The D4 is faster. If you need the speed the D800 is no substitute.

3. Resolution. The D4's files are smaller but large enough for 99.9% of uses (including fashion, landscape and portrait work which are all being done today, on DSLRS with fewer pixels). The world kept turing when the Ds MkII was resolution champ. Magazines didn't shrink. Billboards weren't all shot on MF backs. If you're shooting away from home, being able to transfer files faster (more than twice as fast) matters. Extra pixels are literally a waste of time.

4. Precision. Given enough resolution for almost any scenario, the benefit of the 36MP sensor is cropping. This is most useful if you don't have lenses with the framing you need, or you're not able to capture the who you need in the moment. Professional D4 users have all the glass they need and are skilled in getting the framing right.

This isn't to suggest the D800 isn't awesome. If it was faster I'd have one. That said the D4 is Nikon's flagship and meant for a very specific market. Professional shooters working for publication.

I think the extreme excitement is because the forums are dominated by landscape shooters and amateurs. Landscape shooters ability to use tripods, wait for light and use long exposures means they have the ability to compensate for things which make the D800 impossible, or impractical, for those that don't. Amateurs don't have the glass, the money, or the skill to exploit the full potential of lower-resolution cameras because their photos are made in the edit and need to be cropped.

Unless you're printing a crop, or at a a giant size AND that giant print will be viewed close-up - which is incredibly rare - the D800's file are bigger than you'll need.

What they do offer is the ability to reduce size, and reduce noise, without eating detail. This is how the files will be used in the real world most of the time. Appearing in print, or online, at normal sizes with NR applied when used at higher ISO.

For those shooters they'll have a cheaper, smaller, less robust camera with a much smaller shot-per-charge capacity. Their images will look almost as good as the D4's after noise reduction at higher ISO, and better at low ISO if used very, very large - which will e almost never.

That's a reasonable set of compromises and the one Nikon are selling. The D800 doesn't make the D4 redundant. It slots in below it, exactly as it's supposed to. It'll be very hard to find an outlet in which the D800's resolution is visible (unless you're cropping or shooting at low ISO in controlled conditions).

With the D4 you're buying a lot of advantages that professionals crave, and losing some of the 'cushion' that amateurs rely on and features some professionals (product photographers, MF guys and landscape shooters etc., don't need.)

The D4 is the best 35mm camera Nikon have ever made. The D800 is a good 35mm and an amazing small MF body, which predictably lacks the speed and strength of a best 35mm bodies.

It's a great time to be a photographer. The future looks exciting.
PERFECT explanation.

Many key points which are making me consider staying with my D700.
 
My D4 order stands. The D800 is packed with remarkable features and for only $3000 it's in easy reach for many. I'm tempted to buy one too.
--
Peter
Ontario, Canada
 
I completely agree!!! I too am looking for a camera upgrade since I am still shooting with a D200 and I was hoping that the D800 might be the answer. I am now considering a D700 because I can't see myself needing the D800.
 
Excellent write-up. I never print billboards, but do sometimes crop. Framing, though, gets better with experience. What practice can't fix, however, is faster FPS and better high ISO performance. Because of the points you mentioned and a few others, I'm greatly considering making the jump from my D700 to the D4 instead of the D800.

I like the idea of huge resolution, but I'm thinking FPS and better low-light capabiltiy would see much more use that 72MB image files.
 
DONT FORGET to add the part about probable motion blur and the need to use a tripod when you use the D800 ...not hand held taking photos of your kids.. Folks tempted to buy their first "real camera" (full frame) It may seem like a pure bargain at $3k half the price of the D4 but is is for very specific use..landscape, portrait studio work...IMO of course. ;) My d700 upgrade =D4 FTW!!!
Read about motion blur here
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1021&message=40343416

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1021&message=40536040
 
.. but thanks for taking the time to explain it for people that just don't get it ;)
The D800 is a triumph as people here know. It's price/performance is astounding and it'll be loved by the many people who'll buy one.

That said there seems to be confusion one the place of the D4. As someone who've able to buy both I've been thinking about them relative to each other and will share why I'm still buying a D4.

1. Build. The D4 is a tougher camera. Even the card-bay-doors are metal. That makes a difference to a few people. To that few, it's vital.

2. Speed. The big one. The D4 is faster. If you need the speed the D800 is no substitute.

3. Resolution. The D4's files are smaller but large enough for 99.9% of uses (including fashion, landscape and portrait work which are all being done today, on DSLRS with fewer pixels). The world kept turing when the Ds MkII was resolution champ. Magazines didn't shrink. Billboards weren't all shot on MF backs. If you're shooting away from home, being able to transfer files faster (more than twice as fast) matters. Extra pixels are literally a waste of time.

4. Precision. Given enough resolution for almost any scenario, the benefit of the 36MP sensor is cropping. This is most useful if you don't have lenses with the framing you need, or you're not able to capture the who you need in the moment. Professional D4 users have all the glass they need and are skilled in getting the framing right.

This isn't to suggest the D800 isn't awesome. If it was faster I'd have one. That said the D4 is Nikon's flagship and meant for a very specific market. Professional shooters working for publication.

I think the extreme excitement is because the forums are dominated by landscape shooters and amateurs. Landscape shooters ability to use tripods, wait for light and use long exposures means they have the ability to compensate for things which make the D800 impossible, or impractical, for those that don't. Amateurs don't have the glass, the money, or the skill to exploit the full potential of lower-resolution cameras because their photos are made in the edit and need to be cropped.

Unless you're printing a crop, or at a a giant size AND that giant print will be viewed close-up - which is incredibly rare - the D800's file are bigger than you'll need.

What they do offer is the ability to reduce size, and reduce noise, without eating detail. This is how the files will be used in the real world most of the time. Appearing in print, or online, at normal sizes with NR applied when used at higher ISO.

For those shooters they'll have a cheaper, smaller, less robust camera with a much smaller shot-per-charge capacity. Their images will look almost as good as the D4's after noise reduction at higher ISO, and better at low ISO if used very, very large - which will e almost never.

That's a reasonable set of compromises and the one Nikon are selling. The D800 doesn't make the D4 redundant. It slots in below it, exactly as it's supposed to. It'll be very hard to find an outlet in which the D800's resolution is visible (unless you're cropping or shooting at low ISO in controlled conditions).

With the D4 you're buying a lot of advantages that professionals crave, and losing some of the 'cushion' that amateurs rely on and features some professionals (product photographers, MF guys and landscape shooters etc., don't need.)

The D4 is the best 35mm camera Nikon have ever made. The D800 is a good 35mm and an amazing small MF body, which predictably lacks the speed and strength of a best 35mm bodies.

It's a great time to be a photographer. The future looks exciting.
 
Great explanation...
I know exactly what I am paying for in a D4.
Build quality.
Pro weather sealing.
High frame rates.
World class high Iso.
Perfect file size. (for me)
Top HD dlsr video capabilities/connections.
Extra button access on camera-backlit.
 
Excellent comments.

I'm buying both BUT if I could only have one I would buy the D4. Why? Because it has less megapixels. Surprised? Why? Do you realize that you'll be shooting about 75-100megs per picture? How many of you do 30"x48" prints on a regular basis? If that's all you do, BUY IT! And that's why I want the D800 BUT 80-90% of my work is low light, or helped by the extra speed and durability of the D3. I do, for that, I use my D3X. I also want it for the good high ISO noise performance. So now, the only camera I would want is a D4 if I could only have one.

The day after the D4 is supposed to come out, I start a 10 day contract with a winter festival, 60% of which will be outside, the rest of which will be low light. My D300 couldn't handle the cold. I've never had the D700, but know multiple people who have had problems with that as well as the 5DMKII (which I also use for video but not outside).

So, for me, the D800 is has MUCH too large a file to use on a regular basis and although with the new weather sealing it's likely to do well, the D4 will be my daily camera.

MrSkelter, your comment about "I think the extreme excitement is because the forums are dominated by landscape shooters and amateurs." is very close. I don't consider photographers to be "amateurs" or "pros" I think those terms get thrown around really negatively. I prefer to call myself a full time photographer, and those who are not, are simply not full time photographers.

That's what I think is going on, I know for sure that the forums are dominated by photographers who are not full timers, and the ratio is likely 100 to 1, so when 100 people are excited for a new camera that came out only a day ago and there is one who is happy the D4 was announced around a month ago, the 100 will be heard a lot louder.

None of this is a big deal, read what helps you, move on from what doesn't. None of this changes the fact that this is a great time to be a Nikoner.
--
-Dan
'Cameras don't take pictures, people do.'
'No one sees your camera when they're looking at your pictures.'
http://www.danharperphotography.com/ -BLOG/stock site
http://www.danharperphoto.com/ -Commercial portfolio
http://www.wpgphoto.com/ -My Winnipeg based photography community
 
Great explanation...
I know exactly what I am paying for in a D4.
Build quality.
Pro weather sealing.
High frame rates.
World class high Iso.
Perfect file size. (for me)
Top HD dlsr video capabilities/connections.
Extra button access on camera-backlit.
My 2001 Nokia mobile phone had back lit buttons. Yes, but everything else is good.
--
Geoff B
http://www.gbphoto.com.au/
 
Great explanation...
I know exactly what I am paying for in a D4.
Build quality.
Pro weather sealing.
High frame rates.
World class high Iso.
Perfect file size. (for me)
Top HD dlsr video capabilities/connections.
Extra button access on camera-backlit.
My 2001 Nokia mobile phone had back lit buttons. Yes, but everything else is good.
--
Geoff B
http://www.gbphoto.com.au/
So then you are saying you'd rather the D4 NOT have backlit buttons? THat doesn't make sense.
 
that's why I have it on order and it will arrive in 9 days :)
The D800 is a triumph as people here know. It's price/performance is astounding and it'll be loved by the many people who'll buy one.

That said there seems to be confusion one the place of the D4. As someone who've able to buy both I've been thinking about them relative to each other and will share why I'm still buying a D4.

1. Build. The D4 is a tougher camera. Even the card-bay-doors are metal. That makes a difference to a few people. To that few, it's vital.

2. Speed. The big one. The D4 is faster. If you need the speed the D800 is no substitute.

3. Resolution. The D4's files are smaller but large enough for 99.9% of uses (including fashion, landscape and portrait work which are all being done today, on DSLRS with fewer pixels). The world kept turing when the Ds MkII was resolution champ. Magazines didn't shrink. Billboards weren't all shot on MF backs. If you're shooting away from home, being able to transfer files faster (more than twice as fast) matters. Extra pixels are literally a waste of time.

4. Precision. Given enough resolution for almost any scenario, the benefit of the 36MP sensor is cropping. This is most useful if you don't have lenses with the framing you need, or you're not able to capture the who you need in the moment. Professional D4 users have all the glass they need and are skilled in getting the framing right.

This isn't to suggest the D800 isn't awesome. If it was faster I'd have one. That said the D4 is Nikon's flagship and meant for a very specific market. Professional shooters working for publication.

I think the extreme excitement is because the forums are dominated by landscape shooters and amateurs. Landscape shooters ability to use tripods, wait for light and use long exposures means they have the ability to compensate for things which make the D800 impossible, or impractical, for those that don't. Amateurs don't have the glass, the money, or the skill to exploit the full potential of lower-resolution cameras because their photos are made in the edit and need to be cropped.

Unless you're printing a crop, or at a a giant size AND that giant print will be viewed close-up - which is incredibly rare - the D800's file are bigger than you'll need.

What they do offer is the ability to reduce size, and reduce noise, without eating detail. This is how the files will be used in the real world most of the time. Appearing in print, or online, at normal sizes with NR applied when used at higher ISO.

For those shooters they'll have a cheaper, smaller, less robust camera with a much smaller shot-per-charge capacity. Their images will look almost as good as the D4's after noise reduction at higher ISO, and better at low ISO if used very, very large - which will e almost never.

That's a reasonable set of compromises and the one Nikon are selling. The D800 doesn't make the D4 redundant. It slots in below it, exactly as it's supposed to. It'll be very hard to find an outlet in which the D800's resolution is visible (unless you're cropping or shooting at low ISO in controlled conditions).

With the D4 you're buying a lot of advantages that professionals crave, and losing some of the 'cushion' that amateurs rely on and features some professionals (product photographers, MF guys and landscape shooters etc., don't need.)

The D4 is the best 35mm camera Nikon have ever made. The D800 is a good 35mm and an amazing small MF body, which predictably lacks the speed and strength of a best 35mm bodies.

It's a great time to be a photographer. The future looks exciting.
 
I am rather exited by the D800 but will stick with the D4 also and maybe in a few months time purchase the D800. I'd like to see high iso shots of the D800.
 
Excellent writeup by the thread starter.

I am also tossing up between these two excellent choices. For me although budget is limited, as I am going to run with my purchase for some time, I am going to ignore the price difference.

I am also not hugely interested in the extra pixels, except for cropping. Shooting my 70-200/2.8 with a 1.4x multiplier and still be able to DX crop to get a good result is awesome.

What I really miss on the D4 (and all D bodies) is the integrated flash. I simply love that I can popup a Flash Commander that is light weight (i.e. zero!), and I don't have to carry a separate commander flash or controller.

On the other hand, I love the D4's speed, vertical grip large battery and extra strength.

I am pretty sure that the D4 will win for me, but it is not an easy choice, for sure!
--
paul szilard
http://photos.remektek.com.au
 
I had a D4 on order, but decided to cancel it. I prefer to get a D800 first. After all, the D3s is still perfect for pj work. As in: perfect. D4 does not make the difference big enough to invest right now. For people still using D3, it may be more meaningful.

I'll wait till my D3s fails or till D4 price drops :)

D.

--
My equipment: Nikon D3s, D700, D7000
The ladies equipment: Panasonic LX5 and GH2 for video
 
The D800 is a triumph as people here know. It's price/performance is astounding and it'll be loved by the many people who'll buy one.

That said there seems to be confusion one the place of the D4. As someone who've able to buy both I've been thinking about them relative to each other and will share why I'm still buying a D4.

where did you order from??bI just got.my 2nd bh photo courtesy email this morning. It said they still do not know when tbe d4 will ship or how many units tbey will receive :( i ordered in the first 30 min tbe preorder became available.
 
I think the extreme excitement is because the forums are dominated by landscape shooters and amateurs. Landscape shooters ability to use tripods, wait for light and use long exposures means they have the ability to compensate for things which make the D800 impossible, or impractical, for those that don't. Amateurs don't have the glass, the money, or the skill to exploit the full potential of lower-resolution cameras because their photos are made in the edit and need to be cropped.
Why is it that so many self appointed experts think that just because I am an Amateur I don't have the skill to use a high end camera or I don't have the money to buy high end lenses.

For your information I have both.Along with the D800 I will get the 70-200 2.8 VR lens so I will have the so called holy trinity plus the nikkor 105 macro and 1.7 teleconverter

--
Diverroy
 
I must confess that I am not immune to this new disease either, but until the most recent announcements, I had not heard of people complaining bitterly that their D3s or D700 has such a frustratingly low resolution that they can't wait to buy higher res.

Now everywhere I turn, people are talking about the "low res" of the D4 (50% more pixels than the D3s, hello!).

I would like to ask the D3 sensor users: what size prints do you produce that is still satisfactory to your eye?

My own dilemma is also on D4 vs D800. I am going to pretend that price doesn't matter, but am struggling with

D800 pluses:
  • smaller/lighter body
  • integrated flash WITH commander functions (THIS is my hot button)
  • higher res (- yes I told you I am infected too), means that even DX crops are great
D4 pluses:
  • speed of AF
  • speed of shutter
  • high ISO
  • bigger battery capacity
  • integrated vertical grip
  • better strength and weather seal
  • illuminated button
  • higher quality pixels (?)
I can't wait for some D4 image samples...
--
paul szilard
http://photos.remektek.com.au
 
Thank you for one of the best written comparisons of the D4/D800 debate.

I've got a deposit on both. My type of shooting includes portrait, sports, concerts, corporate events, landscapes, HDR, etc.

The D800 will perform very well in most situations and poorly in others.

The D4 will perform very well in most situations and well in others.

I know if it wasn't for the price difference that the D4 would be an easy choice. With the D4 I won't have any regrets about its limitations, just the extra cost.

With the D800 I might have regrets down the road, especially low light, FPS and buffer capacity.

I will keep looking at example photos before the release but know that the D4 is the correct long-term decision.

Thanks again

Gordon
 
Just don't understand why Nikon didn't make, at least an an option, a D4 sensor in a D800 body (i.e. following the D3 --> D700 formula). Would have already been preordered for me if they had, but now I'll be sticking with my D700 for the foreseeable future instead, it's a shame. Wish I could justify 6K for the D4, but I can't (for me).
 

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