Anyone else feeling duped by Fuji XpPro 1 hype???

I think the bigger question here is how vicious the responses are when a simple question is posted.

Your conclusion that I am posting this because I can't "afford it" is hilarious. I can't afford a 25 million dollar beach home in the Hamptons, that I will give you, but this camera I think I can handle.

The thought of "affording" something this small would never cross my mind. How small your world must be if you think being able to buy a $2000 camera in some way makes you special. Its not a question of affording, it's a question of being ripped off. Can I afford a Leica, yeah, would I buy one, no. Why, because the price doesn't justify what the camera can produce. The last thing I want to do is impress anther equipment geek (unless of course it was an attractive female one) and that's basically what you buy when you buy a Leica.

Again, the points are these:

1) Fuji made the assertion that the image quality is better than FF with nothing to back it up. There was all this buzz about the sensor being so superior, different color filter blah blah blah. The images posted on the Fuji site frankly do not support this. It looks a lot like a 16M APS sensor to me.

2) They announced a product with no MSR, and waited for the market response before announcing a price (initially I remember seeing a $1300 body price on some European websites, where did the sites get that price?).

These are the question that I asked. Not that its any of your business, but believe me, I can afford to buy many more that one of these son.

dellaaa said:

I think the bigger question here is how vicious the responses are when a simple question is posted.

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That, you are absolutely right.

dellaaa said:

Your conclusion that I am posting this because I can't "afford it" is hilarious. I can't afford a 25 million dollar beach home in the Hamptons, that I will give you, but this camera I think I can handle.

The thought of "affording" something this small would never cross my mind. How small your world must be if you think being able to buy a $2000 camera in some way makes you special. Its not a question of affording, it's a question of being ripped off. Can I afford a Leica, yeah, would I buy one, no. Why, because the price doesn't justify what the camera can produce. The last thing I want to do is impress anther equipment geek (unless of course it was an attractive female one) and that's basically what you buy when you buy a Leica.

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I am with you. Each product has a price/value, and although I found the X1-pro concept to be quite interesting, I think this is an over-hyped product with some retro look, but the guts of this camera are not worth 1700 USD.

dellaaa said:

Again, the points are these:

1) Fuji made the assertion that the image quality is better than FF with nothing to back it up. There was all this buzz about the sensor being so superior, different color filter blah blah blah. The images posted on the Fuji site frankly do not support this. It looks a lot like a 16M APS sensor to me.

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It is a 16 MP APS-C sensor without AA filter. An upgraded APS-C sensor I must agree, but nowhere near FF capabilities. People want to hear that APS-C can beat FF capabilities, but reality is entirely different. I have been shooting with APS-C and FF sensors, it is simply two different worlds.

dellaaa said:

2) They announced a product with no MSR, and waited for the market response before announcing a price (initially I remember seeing a $1300 body price on some European websites, where did the sites get that price?).

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I think 1500-1600 USD for X1-pro + 1 lens combo would have been its "more normal" value in my opinion.

dellaaa said:

These are the question that I asked. Not that its any of your business, but believe me, I can afford to buy many more that one of these son.

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Don't worry you are not alone.

Jeff what is the pre-order number ?

You seem to be so convinced that sales on this overpriced camera is going off the roof ?

camera is over-priced. Just go out and make more money, or don't buy it.

Jeff Seltzer said:

To address your issues:

Jeff Seltzer said:

For starters they have made the claim that the camera is compatible with full frame cameras. They haven't substantiated this claim. Everyone knows that sensor design is a compromise between low light capability and resolution. ( D3 vsr D3s ) Which class is Fuji making this claim for?

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First of all, they never said that the X-Pro is "compatible" with full frame - that makes no sense. They said it compares well to full frame. I'm not aware that any camera companies publishes side-by-side comparisons of images like this, do they? Don't worry, DPreview will so you can compare for yourself. Here's what I do know, though. I own both the 5DII and X100, and there's no doubt the X100 compares very favorably to 5DII's files (particularly high ISO shots). So, it's not that much of a stretch for me to believe the X-Pro will perform ever better. Regardless, just wait until the reviews of the camera come out. Settle down.

Jeff Seltzer said:

Secondly I think the pricing is ridiculous. Fuji knew before they started production what the costs of this camera would be to the Yen. They waited to see how the market would react before setting the price. I have not see a camera company do that before. They monitor these sites and felt that enough people would be willing to pay, so $1700 US it is. Ridiculous.

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Really? That's what you think? They invested millions in development and marketing, then trolled the DPreview forums just weeks before launching to determine pricing?? If that was true, the camera would be 50% of the price, what with all the whining and complaining on this site. Their goal is to sell at the highest price to as many consumers as possible. Judging from the pre-order frenzy, they priced it just fine.

Jeff Seltzer said:

Finally the price is ridiculous. From what I hear, the manual focus is so so, and lets face it, its an APS camera with no in body image stabilization and no weather sealing. Granted the styling is great and the lenses look very temoting (although I would have liked to see a zoom and a 20mm also). Had it been full frame, 24 M then with the Sony EVF then $1800 is a great deal. For what it is it is not worth the money.

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You mean it's not worth the money, for you. That's fine. I take it you won't buy it. Way to go, that's called voting with your wallet.

Jeff Seltzer said:

As it stands now the Sony NEX7 makes more sense.

What do you guys thing?

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--
http://www.jeffseltzerphotography.com

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I assume most people wanting an XPro1 will buy at least 1 Fuji lens. More profits from lens or from body are the same thing to Fuji.

Btw, didn't we all rave on how cheap the lenses were? If anything this just supports my speculation.

Before anyone starts with the "can't afford" thing. I did preorder this overpriced camera because it's closer to what I want than other alternatives. I wish there were more choices.

Michael Kaufman said:

hellocrowley said:

Of course I cannot say it with 100% certainty. But a price leak by the largest retailer on the planet around the announcement time, for a few hours. Mistake? Coincidence? I'll let you decide. I can bet $10 no one got fired for that incident though

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If this was intentional perhaps you can explain why the price didn't go out when it was the number one selling camera. The price of the lenses went up, but not the camera. Are you thinking that there was more demand for the lenses then the body so they felt comfortable raising the rice on the lenses? That makes no sense.

--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/michaelthek/

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dellaaa said:

I feel a little duped by the way Fuji announced and is going about marketing the X Pro1.

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dellaaa said:

What do you guys thing?

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Da! I thing when USA become worker's paradise, cameras become entitlement. Pay what you want and seller must sell. Everybody happy as in old Soviet. Only difference—free WODKA! No pursuit of happy—happy legislated—everybody officially happy. Not have to drink to forget troubles—nyet! Drink to celebrate happiness when shooting pictures. Hoi!



I don't see it as an entitlement, and actually expected the price to be higher. Shigetaka Komori has been flapping his face for months to any writer who would listen about the new "high-end" X camera. I was expecting something more in the $3-4000 range. I am not entitled to a camera at what ever price I think is fair. If it is beyond my budget, I will get the best I can actually afford.

Just checking the B&H site, the highest priced digital still camera they sell that is made by Fujifilm is $43,995US with only a normal lens. The X-Pro1 with a normal lens is around $2,300—do you still feel as duped?

--
larry!
http://www.larry-bolch.com/

I found the decision simple. I wanted the Fuji Pro so I ordered it with the three lenses sight on seen. I did the same with the X100 and love it.

It's not that I don't own other cameras. I do. But size wise and optics wise this new one seems to do it. Looking good doesn't hurt either. It is a pretty design.

I have known the Fuji company for many years and they have always been image solid. Did they look around to see about pricing. Maybe, but the prices seems fair.

So for those who are unhappy about the price or the camera, just don't buy it. Fortunately there are other choices.

Elliot

You are hilarious, thanks for your insight too, it was great.

There is the demand for this camera. End story. I don't care if you feel duped; I don't particularly care if you like this camera. People vote with their wallets and the exit polls indicate a strong performance by Fuji. I'm sorry this doesn't jive with people who feel it's a bad value or something equally abstract and absurd?

The thing I have a problem with is coming to this forum looking for honest discussion and insight into cameras, and all I get are bogus pontifications on the "worth" of the camera. Come on. Anyone who feels duped is solely responsible for that themselves.

So many conclusions with little information.

How do we know if we should feel duped when nobody has a production camera yet?. At least nobody that is talking.

These questions are just mind exercises until the camera is out.

I love my X100. Maybe the X-Pro1 is oversold. Maybe it will be a great camera.

The only thing that I know is that in one years time there will be another next great camera.

It really sounds like you want want want a new camera, but you can't commit to any of the available models for fear of something better coming out six months later. And so, you wait, and wait, and wait, finding fault with each new camera, secure in the knowledge that perfection is coming.

dellaaa said:

I feel a little duped by the way Fuji announced and is going about marketing the X Pro1.

For starters they have made the claim that the camera is compatible with full frame cameras. They haven't substantiated this claim. Everyone knows that sensor design is a compromise between low light capability and resolution. ( D3 vsr D3s ) Which class is Fuji making this claim for?

If what they say is true then Fuji should post images of the X Pro1 against the finest full frame cameras out there in both low light and high resolution tests. Let us judge. From where I sit this is genius marketing hype.

Secondly I think the pricing is ridiculous. Fuji knew before they started production what the costs of this camera would be to the Yen. They waited to see how the market would react before setting the price. I have not see a camera company do that before. They monitor these sites and felt that enough people would be willing to pay, so $1700 US it is. Ridiculous.

Finally the price is ridiculous. From what I hear, the manual focus is so so, and lets face it, its an APS camera with no in body image stabilization and no weather sealing. Granted the styling is great and the lenses look very temoting (although I would have liked to see a zoom and a 20mm also). Had it been full frame, 24 M then with the Sony EVF then $1800 is a great deal. For what it is it is not worth the money.

As it stands now the Sony NEX7 makes more sense.

What do you guys thing?

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Really, if one wanted to try to come up with a short on-line tutorial of how to have everybody disagree with you in an on-line digital camera forum ... this thread could serve as an example of what to say.

It's got it all.

Of course, at the base, the OP's comments are based on nothing. We don't even know how snappy the camera will be in terms of wake-up time and focus time.

My old Canon 1D Mark II, it can go from being asleep to capturing an image just as fast as I can push the button. If this new Fuji can do the same, it would be well worth the price.

And the lenses too. How good will they be ? If they are great lenses, then the prices will be correct too.

It could even work out to be a bargain. But maybe it won't be a bargain.

Apparently the OP is upset because they didn't announce the price the same day they announced the camera. Big woop-dee-do.

dellaaa said:

I feel a little duped by the way Fuji announced and is going about marketing the X Pro1.

For starters they have made the claim that the camera is compatible with full frame cameras. They haven't substantiated this claim. Everyone knows that sensor design is a compromise between low light capability and resolution. ( D3 vsr D3s ) Which class is Fuji making this claim for?

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Are we to assume that you meant to type d3s vs d3x? D3 and d3s have the same resulotion, the d3s is just an improved d3.

Fuji have claimed that the resolution will challenge that of an eos5d mkII.

dellaaa said:

If what they say is true then Fuji should post images of the X Pro1 against the finest full frame cameras out there in both low light and high resolution tests. Let us judge. From where I sit this is genius marketing hype.

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There will be lots of comparisons by other sources as soon as the camera is finished.
Of course it is marketing. That doesn't mean it can't be true.

dellaaa said:

Secondly I think the pricing is ridiculous. Fuji knew before they started production what the costs of this camera would be to the Yen. They waited to see how the market would react before setting the price. I have not see a camera company do that before. They monitor these sites and felt that enough people would be willing to pay, so $1700 US it is. Ridiculous.

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They announced the estimated price of 1700usd on the day of the announcement of the camera. Some people just can't be bothered to read information.

dellaaa said:

Finally the price is ridiculous. From what I hear, the manual focus is so so, and lets face it, its an APS camera with no in body image stabilization and no weather sealing. Granted the styling is great and the lenses look very temoting (although I would have liked to see a zoom and a 20mm also). Had it been full frame, 24 M then with the Sony EVF then $1800 is a great deal. For what it is it is not worth the money.

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With that sort of manual controls and optical viewfinder there's not much competition. Fuji knows that.

dellaaa said:

As it stands now the Sony NEX7 makes more sense.

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Fuji x pro 1s target audience won't consider what is basically a videocam with high resolution to be an alternative to a stills camera. No optical finder, no money.

dellaaa said:

What do you guys thing?

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I think that you're not part of the intended audience for the marketing.

--
Anders

'It is nice to be important but it is more important to be nice'

Your original post was far less neutral [the word ridiculous occurs several times] in the tone than the way you are asking them now. You got the tone of reply you should have expected

dellaaa said:

I think the bigger question here is how vicious the responses are when a simple question is posted.

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...

dellaaa said:

Again, the points are these:

1) Fuji made the assertion that the image quality is better than FF with nothing to back it up. There was all this buzz about the sensor being so superior, different color filter blah blah blah. The images posted on the Fuji site frankly do not support this. It looks a lot like a 16M APS sensor to me.

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Well, that is marketing and creating buzz. What else is new?

BTW, I leave your verdict on the samples to you; I never look at pr-realese official samples.

dellaaa said:

2) They announced a product with no MSR, and waited for the market response before announcing a price (initially I remember seeing a $1300 body price on some European websites, where did the sites get that price?).

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Most likely explanation: made them up as they tought it should be priced a bit over the nex-7.

The way companies set their pricing has been explained very well elsewhere in this thread.

There are no rules on what you have to tell on a [pre-]announcement. When a product is finalized, you also have decided what initial price you are going to ask. But when creating advance publicity, you don't necessarily want to tell the punters how much it is going to cost them.
Anyway, if you think it is too expensive, just wait till the price drops.

The title of your initial message really sounds as a complaint against the price (´secondly, the price is ridiculous´ and next paragraph stating again that ´finally, the price is ridiculous´) besides a rant on unseen qualities yet, whatever your explanations about it later. It also really sounds as if you would like to have this camera, but not at that price point...

In short:

• there have already been publications claiming that the sensor delivers IQ comparable to Canon 5DII (which does not say a thing about FOV, WA etc...)
• the initial quote by the French magazine was close to 1,400€ if memory serves me right, that´s far from 1,300$... Lens included or not was an open question.
• NEX7 appearing a better deal is quite a statement: it has only one good native lens (although sub-par for the logo), but that will set you back 2,200$ in total as well...

I confess having been interested in a NEX7 for a short while, but the fact that I intended it solely for street as a complement to my A900, as a support for other legacy lenses, so Manual Focus only, held me off some time, besides the flooding in Thailand. The X-Pro1 with its probably far better Fuji lens line, its feature set and overall appeal, rings far more bells for me than any NEX! So, it´s too expensive for you; I´m fine with that, couldn´t care less to be honest. I´ll get one asap, and even if it sells less than expected because of that and the price drops later, I´ll be happy with the opportunity to shoot it earlier and pay a premium for that. Frankly, I think it´s wishful thinking, IMO it will sell well at that price point.
Thank you Fuji!!!

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1052&message=40238980

...and pretty close to the average price of the NEX-7 in most places
that offer it right now in EU: between 1149 and 1249 euro,

which seemed reasonable, but before we've learned that Fuji decided
to skimp and delete the adjustable diopter from XP1 (x100 have and
so does x10),

jpr2

JasperD said:

The title of your initial message really sounds as a complaint against the price (´secondly, the price is ridiculous´ and next paragraph stating again that ´finally, the price is ridiculous´) besides a rant on unseen qualities yet, whatever your explanations about it later. It also really sounds as if you would like to have this camera, but not at that price point...

In short:

• there have already been publications claiming that the sensor delivers IQ comparable to Canon 5DII (which does not say a thing about FOV, WA etc...)
• the initial quote by the French magazine was close to 1,400€ if memory serves me right, that´s far from 1,300$... Lens included or not was an open question.
• NEX7 appearing a better deal is quite a statement: it has only one good native lens (although sub-par for the logo), but that will set you back 2,200$ in total as well...

I confess having been interested in a NEX7 for a short while, but the fact that I intended it solely for street as a complement to my A900, as a support for other legacy lenses, so Manual Focus only, held me off some time, besides the flooding in Thailand. The X-Pro1 with its probably far better Fuji lens line, its feature set and overall appeal, rings far more bells for me than any NEX! So, it´s too expensive for you; I´m fine with that, couldn´t care less to be honest. I´ll get one asap, and even if it sells less than expected because of that and the price drops later, I´ll be happy with the opportunity to shoot it earlier and pay a premium for that. Frankly, I think it´s wishful thinking, IMO it will sell well at that price point.
Thank you Fuji!!!

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--
~
street candids (non-interactive):
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/qmusaget/sets/72157609618638319/
music and dance:
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/qmusaget/sets/72157600341265280/
B&W:
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/qmusaget/sets/72157623306407882/
wildlife & macro:
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/qmusaget/sets/72157600341377106/
interactive street:
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/qmusaget/sets/72157623181919323/

Comments and critique are always welcome!
~

They announced a camera, they're marketing it and that, by definition, involves marketing hype, they've set a price I'm not willing to pay, so I won't. I'm sure I'd love much about the camera and not love some other things about it - I'd love to have it, but won't pay $2300 as the price of entry. Maybe if it lives up to the marketing hype I'll be willing to at some point, maybe the price will come down, maybe they'll produce a less expensive body, maybe a lot of thing.

What's to feel duped about? When was the last time a product delivered on everything said and implied in marketing? If you ever believed it would be the first flawless and perfect camera that would meet every marketed expectation, then you HAVE been duped, but not by Fuji - by yourself.

Take in all of the information, decide to buy it or not, live with your decision, or revisit it later. This is really all pretty simple.

-Ray
-------------------------
http://www.flickr.com/photos/20889767@N05/collections/72157626204295198/

dellaaa said:

I feel a little duped by the way Fuji announced and is going about marketing the X Pro1.

What do you guys thing?

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I think being "duped" is a personal permissive thing.

You wanna be duped?

O.K. Consider yourself duped.

(Consider it a self-inflicted wound.)

I'm sorry, what? The first E-mount cameras ever , be it stills or video, were the NEX-3 and NEX-5. The first video e-mount camera was the VG-10 camcorder, which was basically a NEX-5 in an other body. After that, we've seen the VG-20 which is a NEX-5N in a camcorder body, as well as the FS-100, which is a stripped down F3 in a more compact body, and with a E-mount.

Sony cine cameras have used, and still use, the PL-mount, not the E-mount. The only cine camera with the E-mount is the budget FS100. The F3 and F65 are both PL-mount cameras. I really, really wouldn't say that the E-mount was designed with video on mind.

theswede said:

You do realize that Sony first and foremost were planning cameras to capitalize on their video mount, and that the lenses thus far are video lenses which happen to work for cameras too? If you don't, you will never understand what points Sony got and which they missed.

The disadvantage of the Sony approach is they can't make compact, distorted lenses with software adjustment - that would be bad for the video side. The advantage is that the NEX series is pretty much a freebie to them, and the success of it (and people treating it like a micro-DSLR range) appears to have surprised them a lot.

Jesper

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Duped ?

When DPReview announced this a few weeks ago, the $2300 entry fee has been mentioned. Fuji did not suddenly pulled this figure just because there was a positive reaction when the product became available. So OP's reaction is the result of ignorance.

Yes, the price is high....but then again...this is a choice by the consumers. I could name a dozen digital camera items where the price seems ridiculous...Sony Zeiss lenses...etc. Leica M9, take it or leave it.....Leica's name added another $5000 to the price of that camera....Please do not tell me their electronics are better than other brands.....

Will I buy the Leica M9 ? If I have the resources....definitely YES.

Will I buy the X=Pro1 ...... yes. But I need to find out some performance review specially its ability to focus in low light.

I am planning to buy one as the entry fee is within my resources.

I use Contax G system to this day. No image stabilzation...but the lenses are excellent for my style of shooting. NO HD video......I could not care less as I never use this.

If the Fujifilm will focus on low light without any issues...I will pay the entry fee to this system.....as this will be an ideal tool for my own style of street photography.

I do not care for image stabilization.....as I only intend to purchase the 35mm.....if you can not hold that body steady enough to capture sharp images....get a monopod.

Please stop expecting this camera to perform like the Canon/Nikon DSLR which were designed for sports photography, wildlife photography.

If you are buying this camera for sports/wildlife....stick with your Canon and Nikon.....X-Pro1 is not the tool for this.

Likewise if you want your camera to have HD Video....again X-Pro1 is not for you.

Weather Sealing ? .... hahahahaha this camera is not for you.

Street photography ? This will be a great tool.....specially if this camera could focus in dim light accurately.

Ray Sachs said:

They announced a camera, they're marketing it and that, by definition, involves marketing hype, they've set a price I'm not willing to pay, so I won't. I'm sure I'd love much about the camera and not love some other things about it - I'd love to have it, but won't pay $2300 as the price of entry. Maybe if it lives up to the marketing hype I'll be willing to at some point, maybe the price will come down, maybe they'll produce a less expensive body, maybe a lot of thing.

What's to feel duped about? When was the last time a product delivered on everything said and implied in marketing? If you ever believed it would be the first flawless and perfect camera that would meet every marketed expectation, then you HAVE been duped, but not by Fuji - by yourself.

Take in all of the information, decide to buy it or not, live with your decision, or revisit it later. This is really all pretty simple.

-Ray
-------------------------
http://www.flickr.com/photos/20889767@N05/collections/72157626204295198/

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Nowhere near what FF sensor? The 5D? The 1DsII? The Kodak DCS-14n? APS-C will naturally never be the same quality as FF when comparing the same technology, but APS-C is the format that is leading development. As the 5DII is nearing the end of its life, it's no surprise that APS-C sensors come close, and in some cases, even surpass it. The NEX7 sensor has as good as identical resolution, and better dynamic range and tonal depth as well. The same goes for the 16mp Sony sensor outside of resolution. Now, a 16mp Sony sensor without a AA filter will probably be very close the the 5DII for both resolution and SNR, and should easily surpass it for dynastic range and tonal depth.

As for price, look how much 35mm F/1.4s cost, and then think how cheap the body would need to be for a combo to be 1500-1600$. A 5DII would set you back 2600$ with a decent 50mm. A Sony NEX7 would set you back 2200$ with one decent lens. Yet the X-Pro 1 should be 1500$?

moimoi said:

It is a 16 MP APS-C sensor without AA filter. An upgraded APS-C sensor I must agree, but nowhere near FF capabilities. People want to hear that APS-C can beat FF capabilities, but reality is entirely different. I have been shooting with APS-C and FF sensors, it is simply two different worlds.

I think 1500-1600 USD for X1-pro + 1 lens combo would have been its "more normal" value in my opinion.

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