alexisgreat
Veteran Member
Sounds like it matches your "real world" testing with your Pentax DSLR doesn't it, Ralph 
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X-S1 Night shots.
- Thread starter PAUL TILL
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Wellington100
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alexisgreat
Veteran Member
Ralph, I dont think those tests were even performed in EXR mode, as the new Canon Powershot S100 scores even higher, at 11.6 EV. Add +2 stops to the Fuji score and you have it squarely in APS-C territory at close to 13 EV (about the same as the Sony NEX series in DR.)
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Ralph McKenzie
Senior Member
Yeah Alex that makes sense too.
I was thinking the other day that the sensor size of the XS1 is bigger than the HS20/f600's, but it aint all that much bigger in terms of area, but with the reduced pixel size should be giving better results than the up and down results we are currently seeing.
Even when the HS20/HS10's were introduced There didn't seem to be (if my memory is right) that big a discrepancy in the IQ from the camera. I'm beginning to think that in the effort to make the "ultimate bridge camera" Fuji have over cooked things in the sensor area a bit.
If you have seen Paul's s100fs bird shots, it easy to see that he's more than capable of getting good results from that cam. I think the same should be true of his XS1, and yet the bird shots ( granted they are at long end ) just dont seem to have quite the same zip. I want to see what he can do with some of those after PP work.
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Love dat Fuji
http://akiwiretrospective.blogspot.com/
Fuji HS20EXR
Fuji HS10,
Pentax K1000, Pentax sf7, Pentax zx-50
I was thinking the other day that the sensor size of the XS1 is bigger than the HS20/f600's, but it aint all that much bigger in terms of area, but with the reduced pixel size should be giving better results than the up and down results we are currently seeing.
Even when the HS20/HS10's were introduced There didn't seem to be (if my memory is right) that big a discrepancy in the IQ from the camera. I'm beginning to think that in the effort to make the "ultimate bridge camera" Fuji have over cooked things in the sensor area a bit.
If you have seen Paul's s100fs bird shots, it easy to see that he's more than capable of getting good results from that cam. I think the same should be true of his XS1, and yet the bird shots ( granted they are at long end ) just dont seem to have quite the same zip. I want to see what he can do with some of those after PP work.
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Love dat Fuji
http://akiwiretrospective.blogspot.com/
Fuji HS20EXR
Fuji HS10,
Pentax K1000, Pentax sf7, Pentax zx-50
alexisgreat
Veteran Member
I agree and I remember something Kim said about the newer/larger sensored Fuji cams maybe being less sharp and perhaps having a bit less DR because of blending of strong highlights or something like that. The older sensors seemed to be better in this respect.
I certainly hope it isnt that new NR algorithm that they might be using in the new HS30, which might actually hurt its performance too.
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I certainly hope it isnt that new NR algorithm that they might be using in the new HS30, which might actually hurt its performance too.
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He's being very coy. Is it possible he's tried out this download? -
http://www.photographyblog.com/news/topaz_star_effects/
Nick
Danielepaolo
Senior Member
From that link you provided
F550 10.6
P7100 10.7
S100 11.6
EX1 11.1
XZ1 10.4
The F550 is one of the lowest. The tests don't use the EXR mode though and are done in JPG. Is that correct? So RAW and EXR would see an improvement for the F550 over the others.
From DXO Mark website
NEX 7 13.2
Alpha 550 11.8
D90 12.5
D7000 13.9
550D/600D 11.5
E520 10.4 ( )
The Sony, Nikon and Canon are ahead, can be shot in RAW and some have DR improvements technologies. The Olypus is poor in comparison though. In fact I can't find a budget Olympus with a higher DR rating than the F550 - (is this a recognised issue with Olympus DSLR? I don't know how this brand performs).
Now, you would appear correct if you limited your original statement to Olympus DSLR but not DSLR in general.
Some interesting reading from Kim's blog
http://kimletkeman.blogspot.com.au/2012/01/f550exr-dxomark-scores-have-vindicated.html
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Apologies if my lack of photographic knowledge is catching.
F550 10.6
P7100 10.7
S100 11.6
EX1 11.1
XZ1 10.4
The F550 is one of the lowest. The tests don't use the EXR mode though and are done in JPG. Is that correct? So RAW and EXR would see an improvement for the F550 over the others.
From DXO Mark website
NEX 7 13.2
Alpha 550 11.8
D90 12.5
D7000 13.9
550D/600D 11.5
E520 10.4 ( )
The Sony, Nikon and Canon are ahead, can be shot in RAW and some have DR improvements technologies. The Olypus is poor in comparison though. In fact I can't find a budget Olympus with a higher DR rating than the F550 - (is this a recognised issue with Olympus DSLR? I don't know how this brand performs).
Now, you would appear correct if you limited your original statement to Olympus DSLR but not DSLR in general.
Some interesting reading from Kim's blog
http://kimletkeman.blogspot.com.au/2012/01/f550exr-dxomark-scores-have-vindicated.html
--
Apologies if my lack of photographic knowledge is catching.
Daniel Lowe
Senior Member
Funny you say that, I used to fight like cats and dogs with a chap on a political blog in NZ and now we are good friends.
Never say never, you may take a trip of a lifetime and explore the south west pacific, find your way to the South island of NZ and shoot a magnificent West Coast sunset to hear "Hi Bill hows it going".
never say never Bill.I really don't get why you think it is so bad, I don't know if it is a cultural thing or something else, but I do know that things that don't bother people from where I am from really upset people from your part of the world. I'm not saying I'm right and your wrong, but it does genuinely fascinate me as to why that is.
And I don't hate America, but you must try and understand why others have strong opinions about your land. NZ doesn't matter to most Americans, and to be fair why should it? but we can't take that opinion down here, the USA has huge influence over our lives and many NZers pay close attention to what goes on in the States and have strong opinions on those issues.
I actually think the inconsistency you think you are seeing is more likely the difficulty you are having in placing me in a box with a label. Some people are harder to define than others and we are from very different cultural backgrounds even though we speak the same language.
Well I run my own business so I get to be all bossy all day long
I'm not sure that you would let me be any different Bill, in my experience people see what they want to see regardless of evidence to the contrary.
Daniel Lowe
Senior Member
Larry, the problem was that most reviews tested the HS20 at full res, when in reality it is best seen as an 8mp EXR camera.
Some of the full res shots without adjusting noise reduction were truly hideous, but once you get the sensor working to it's best it is capable of some excellent results. Kim L got some very good results out of this sensor (f550) in RAW as did several other users.
I think the new Panasonic FZ150 probably now has a smidgen more pixel level detail but not better dynamic range. It is the next generation though and would be better compared with the HS30.
Personally I think this sensor has good potential which is why I was interested in your pixel pitch comment, it depends on what Fuji have managed to improve and their claims of a 30% noise reduction at least sound impressive.
alexisgreat
Veteran Member
Yep, they use full resolution auto mode, so not including EXR, so if you added the +2 stops for that, you would get into Sony NEX territory.
Check out some of the other larger sensor cameras, Im surprised their DR is so low. The Nikon V1 and the Canon entry level DSLR (600D and 1100D).
F600EXR 10.8 EV
Nikon V1 11.0 EV
Canon 1100D 11.0 EV
Canon 600D 11.5 EV
Canon 1100D very nearly matches F600, and F600 is at full res!
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Check out some of the other larger sensor cameras, Im surprised their DR is so low. The Nikon V1 and the Canon entry level DSLR (600D and 1100D).
F600EXR 10.8 EV
Nikon V1 11.0 EV
Canon 1100D 11.0 EV
Canon 600D 11.5 EV
Canon 1100D very nearly matches F600, and F600 is at full res!
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alexisgreat
Veteran Member
Actually, most Americans think there's a lot of bad stuff going on over here. There are some people who have their head buried in the sand, but not any of us intellectual types
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alexisgreat
Veteran Member
Panasonic FZ150 gets a pretty scathing review from DXOMark, I was surprised....
http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/News/DxOMark-news/Review-of-the-Panasonic-DMC-FZ150
DR is pretty good at 10.9 EV but the score is low overall because this camera doesnt perform so well in low light.
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http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/News/DxOMark-news/Review-of-the-Panasonic-DMC-FZ150
DR is pretty good at 10.9 EV but the score is low overall because this camera doesnt perform so well in low light.
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alexisgreat
Veteran Member
This was Dpreview's review of a previous EXR camera:
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/Q210grouptravelzoom/page4.asp
EXR Mode
The F80 EXR is unique in this collection of cameras for its triple-mode sensor. After extended use, we've really come to appreciate the benefits of the DR mode for increased dynamic range - so much so, in fact, that we consider this the main selling point of the camera. In its full resolution mode, the F80 EXR gives decent, but not outstanding image quality, and struggles especially with scenes containing a lot of green, such as landscapes. The reason the F80 EXR has trouble rendering detail accurately in the green channel is almost certainly down to the unconventional way in which its sensor is designed, but although things can look a little suspect at 100% onscreen, we're confident that its shortcomings will be invisible in normal use.
The advantage of DR mode is the noticeable increase in dynamic range in areas like bright sky or sunlit stonework, which you can see in the comparison images shown below. The difference that DR mode makes is hugely beneficial in tricky lighting conditions, and brings the quality of the F80 EXR's output to a similar level that we'd expect from a Micro Four Thirds camera or DSLR.
The high-ISO 'SN' mode is interesting too, and definitely offers a meaningful improvement in high ISO performance compared to full 12MP output. Just like the DR mode, resolution drops to 6MP, but unless you intend to make prints greater than letter size, this decrease will remain essentially unnoticeable. It is a shame though that (for some reason) the highest available ISO setting in 'SN' mode is ISO 1600. Like SN and DR modes, the ultra-high ISO settings are also achieved by pixel-binning (the highest 12,800 setting outputs a 3Mp file) and it does therefore seem odd that you have to switch out of the EXR setting to access them.
If we owned the F80 EXR, we would tape up the shooting mode dial so that it never comes off 'EXR'. these extra modes - and especially DR - are definitely the key selling point of the camera. It is a shame though that Fujifilm doesn't have the confidence make EXR more central to the camera's operation in all shooting modes. The entire system is complicated by the fact that 'DR' can mean very different things when it appears as an option in the camera's menu. Set to full resolution, at ISO 100, the F80 is limited to 'DR 100%'. At ISO 200, a 'DR 200%' option appears, and at ISO 400, a 'DR 400%' is also unlocked. This isn't EXR. This is just tonal adjustment, pushing and pulling the tone curve to give the illusion of greater dynamic range in a single exposure. The only way that you can shoot in the 'true' DR mode is to either switch the shooting dial to 'EXR', as already mentioned, or (in one of the other modes) to manually drop the resolution from 12MP to 6Mp. At this point, 'DR 200%' and 'DR 400%' do actually engage the EXR function.
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http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/Q210grouptravelzoom/page4.asp
EXR Mode
The F80 EXR is unique in this collection of cameras for its triple-mode sensor. After extended use, we've really come to appreciate the benefits of the DR mode for increased dynamic range - so much so, in fact, that we consider this the main selling point of the camera. In its full resolution mode, the F80 EXR gives decent, but not outstanding image quality, and struggles especially with scenes containing a lot of green, such as landscapes. The reason the F80 EXR has trouble rendering detail accurately in the green channel is almost certainly down to the unconventional way in which its sensor is designed, but although things can look a little suspect at 100% onscreen, we're confident that its shortcomings will be invisible in normal use.
The advantage of DR mode is the noticeable increase in dynamic range in areas like bright sky or sunlit stonework, which you can see in the comparison images shown below. The difference that DR mode makes is hugely beneficial in tricky lighting conditions, and brings the quality of the F80 EXR's output to a similar level that we'd expect from a Micro Four Thirds camera or DSLR.
The high-ISO 'SN' mode is interesting too, and definitely offers a meaningful improvement in high ISO performance compared to full 12MP output. Just like the DR mode, resolution drops to 6MP, but unless you intend to make prints greater than letter size, this decrease will remain essentially unnoticeable. It is a shame though that (for some reason) the highest available ISO setting in 'SN' mode is ISO 1600. Like SN and DR modes, the ultra-high ISO settings are also achieved by pixel-binning (the highest 12,800 setting outputs a 3Mp file) and it does therefore seem odd that you have to switch out of the EXR setting to access them.
If we owned the F80 EXR, we would tape up the shooting mode dial so that it never comes off 'EXR'. these extra modes - and especially DR - are definitely the key selling point of the camera. It is a shame though that Fujifilm doesn't have the confidence make EXR more central to the camera's operation in all shooting modes. The entire system is complicated by the fact that 'DR' can mean very different things when it appears as an option in the camera's menu. Set to full resolution, at ISO 100, the F80 is limited to 'DR 100%'. At ISO 200, a 'DR 200%' option appears, and at ISO 400, a 'DR 400%' is also unlocked. This isn't EXR. This is just tonal adjustment, pushing and pulling the tone curve to give the illusion of greater dynamic range in a single exposure. The only way that you can shoot in the 'true' DR mode is to either switch the shooting dial to 'EXR', as already mentioned, or (in one of the other modes) to manually drop the resolution from 12MP to 6Mp. At this point, 'DR 200%' and 'DR 400%' do actually engage the EXR function.
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Danielepaolo
Senior Member
I note that you did not take in to account shooting in RAW. You were involved in the following thread. There basically the wash-up was the there is no real advantage in shooting EXR if someone shoots in RAW.
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1012&message=40338407
Perhaps you need to qualify your statement further by restricting it to JPG shooting only.
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alexisgreat
Veteran Member
Daniel, note how the review mentions trouble rendering greens---- maybe this is what you saw when you were at full res too.
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alexisgreat
Veteran Member
Are you talking about the Techradar tests, Dan? Because those were done in Jpeg only yes, but the ones done on DXOMark's website are done specifically in RAW and RAW only (note: there are no results there from cameras that do not have a RAW mode.) Tech Radar bought the DXOMark software and ran their own tests on cameras in Jpeg mode, but the ones on DXOMark's website were done in house and in RAW mode only.
Also, note that out of all the cameras in the Techradar tests, only Fuji and Panasonic have a RAW mode.
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Also, note that out of all the cameras in the Techradar tests, only Fuji and Panasonic have a RAW mode.
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alexisgreat
Veteran Member
Note the Dpreview review of the F80EXR, where they mention:
The advantage of DR mode is the noticeable increase in dynamic range in areas like bright sky or sunlit stonework, which you can see in the comparison images shown below. The difference that DR mode makes is hugely beneficial in tricky lighting conditions, and brings the quality of the F80 EXR's output to a similar level that we'd expect from a Micro Four Thirds camera or DSLR.
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http://Alex_the_GREAT.photoshop.com
The advantage of DR mode is the noticeable increase in dynamic range in areas like bright sky or sunlit stonework, which you can see in the comparison images shown below. The difference that DR mode makes is hugely beneficial in tricky lighting conditions, and brings the quality of the F80 EXR's output to a similar level that we'd expect from a Micro Four Thirds camera or DSLR.
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Daniel
Sad Really
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JB
I am not a photographer, I am just a guy that takes pictures.
http://buckshotsimageblog.blogspot.com/
From me? Yes. I just wrote that some of us thought the S100fs should have had a 4/3 sensor. It was not enough of an upgrade from my S9100 to justify the cost at the time. My S9100 has really died at this point and I want a Fujifilm replacement Fujifilm not any other brand or type of camera. They finally deliver what I thought would be my next camera and from what I have seen I might as well forget it.
Sad Really
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JB
I am not a photographer, I am just a guy that takes pictures.
http://buckshotsimageblog.blogspot.com/
alexisgreat
Veteran Member
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/fujifilmf200exr/page9.asp
This is great, because it illustrates the point graphically. Note that additional highlight headroom extends the dynamic range, but the shadow range is about the same (at least shadows dont clip any sooner)
Dynamic range
In addition to its low-light pixel-binning mode, the F200 EXR also has a mode to allow the capture of a wider range of tones (and therefore offer greater dynamic range). Again this takes advantage of the neighboring pairs of same-colored photosites but also makes use of another new capability of the underlying hardware. The F200's sensor has two readouts with each receiving the output from alternate rows of photosites. In EXR DR mode, the readout process for one half of the sensor begins before the end of the full exposure, giving underexposed information for half of the photosites. This underexposure helps prevent the brightest areas of the image becoming overexposed. The camera then combines the information from these underexposed photosites with the other, fully exposed ones, providing additional detail in the highlights.
In its 12MP modes, the camera also offers the more conventional dynamic range boosting modes seen on previous Fujifilm cameras. These underexpose the entire shot to retain highlights, then apply a different tone curve to present the correct final exposure. The downside of this process is that additional noise tends to be generated as the dark, potentially noisy, regions of the image are 'pulled-up'. These modes limit the sensitivity settings that are available, so that 200% dynamic range is only available at ISO 200 and upwards (because the camera is under-exposing its base ISO by a stop and hence appearing to use an ISO 200 exposure).
However, thanks to the EXR technology, the F200 can underexpose half of its photosites and incorporate that additional highlight data without creating additional noise in the shadows (the detail for which is captured by the other half of the sensor). This allows it to offer up to 400% DRange expansion at ISO 100 (with half the photosites reading out a quarter of the way through the full exposure to provide two extra stops of dynamic range).
At ISO 200 the camera can even provide 800% DRange expansion, but still with the level of shadow noise you'd expect to see in a normal ISO 200 exposure. The results are astonishing for a compact camera, with impressive amounts of additional detail being retained in some scenes. Confusingly, some of the capability (but not the 800% option, oddly), appears to be available in the non-EXR modes if you reduce the resolution to 6MP. Certainly it's possible to engage 400% DR at ISO 100 in 6MP mode but don't expect the user manual to come to your aid in understanding the camera's capabilities.
It's worth being aware though, that you can manually select the amount of dynamic range expansion being used in EXR DR mode, (though you can't set the ISO, as the camera needs to retain the ability to push to ISO 200 to use the 800% mode). The risk is that it's possible to accidentally leave the camera locked at DR 100% - substantially limiting the DR mode's capability.
As can be seen, the effects in terms of retaining highlights are extremely impressive, with a great deal more detail being retained. And, since the camera has kept the overall ISO to 200, there isn't the same noise penalty to be paid as when conventional sensors try to underexpose and then pull the brightness back up. There's a slight increase in shadow noise but the F200 seems to be very good at using data from its underexposed photosites to build the highlight areas of the image and the normally-exposed photosites for the dark regions.
For this shot, setting DRange to 'Auto' saw the camera select 400% but it can sometimes be a bit conservative (it rarely appears to select the 800% setting), so it's often worth making sure you've specified a high DRange expansion if there's a high degree of contrast in your scene.
It's worth remembering that if you're want to fit a broader range of tones into your image (by capturing more data between complete black and clipped white), then the tone curve of the image has to be made more gentle, resulting in lower overall contrast. On the whole the F200 EXR seems to strike this balance about right, pulling additional detail into the image without making it look too 'flat' or gaining too much of the 'unreal' appearance that can mar poorly tonemapped HDR images.
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This is great, because it illustrates the point graphically. Note that additional highlight headroom extends the dynamic range, but the shadow range is about the same (at least shadows dont clip any sooner
)Dynamic range
In addition to its low-light pixel-binning mode, the F200 EXR also has a mode to allow the capture of a wider range of tones (and therefore offer greater dynamic range). Again this takes advantage of the neighboring pairs of same-colored photosites but also makes use of another new capability of the underlying hardware. The F200's sensor has two readouts with each receiving the output from alternate rows of photosites. In EXR DR mode, the readout process for one half of the sensor begins before the end of the full exposure, giving underexposed information for half of the photosites. This underexposure helps prevent the brightest areas of the image becoming overexposed. The camera then combines the information from these underexposed photosites with the other, fully exposed ones, providing additional detail in the highlights.
In its 12MP modes, the camera also offers the more conventional dynamic range boosting modes seen on previous Fujifilm cameras. These underexpose the entire shot to retain highlights, then apply a different tone curve to present the correct final exposure. The downside of this process is that additional noise tends to be generated as the dark, potentially noisy, regions of the image are 'pulled-up'. These modes limit the sensitivity settings that are available, so that 200% dynamic range is only available at ISO 200 and upwards (because the camera is under-exposing its base ISO by a stop and hence appearing to use an ISO 200 exposure).
However, thanks to the EXR technology, the F200 can underexpose half of its photosites and incorporate that additional highlight data without creating additional noise in the shadows (the detail for which is captured by the other half of the sensor). This allows it to offer up to 400% DRange expansion at ISO 100 (with half the photosites reading out a quarter of the way through the full exposure to provide two extra stops of dynamic range).
At ISO 200 the camera can even provide 800% DRange expansion, but still with the level of shadow noise you'd expect to see in a normal ISO 200 exposure. The results are astonishing for a compact camera, with impressive amounts of additional detail being retained in some scenes. Confusingly, some of the capability (but not the 800% option, oddly), appears to be available in the non-EXR modes if you reduce the resolution to 6MP. Certainly it's possible to engage 400% DR at ISO 100 in 6MP mode but don't expect the user manual to come to your aid in understanding the camera's capabilities.
It's worth being aware though, that you can manually select the amount of dynamic range expansion being used in EXR DR mode, (though you can't set the ISO, as the camera needs to retain the ability to push to ISO 200 to use the 800% mode). The risk is that it's possible to accidentally leave the camera locked at DR 100% - substantially limiting the DR mode's capability.
As can be seen, the effects in terms of retaining highlights are extremely impressive, with a great deal more detail being retained. And, since the camera has kept the overall ISO to 200, there isn't the same noise penalty to be paid as when conventional sensors try to underexpose and then pull the brightness back up. There's a slight increase in shadow noise but the F200 seems to be very good at using data from its underexposed photosites to build the highlight areas of the image and the normally-exposed photosites for the dark regions.
For this shot, setting DRange to 'Auto' saw the camera select 400% but it can sometimes be a bit conservative (it rarely appears to select the 800% setting), so it's often worth making sure you've specified a high DRange expansion if there's a high degree of contrast in your scene.
It's worth remembering that if you're want to fit a broader range of tones into your image (by capturing more data between complete black and clipped white), then the tone curve of the image has to be made more gentle, resulting in lower overall contrast. On the whole the F200 EXR seems to strike this balance about right, pulling additional detail into the image without making it look too 'flat' or gaining too much of the 'unreal' appearance that can mar poorly tonemapped HDR images.
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