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After film or printing paper goes through the processing chemicalsNO FINAL WASH! That is why I would never use a Mini Lab of any kind!
If you are doing pro work at pro prices then use a pro lab!
End of Story!
Bob
the chemicals must be removed by rinsing in water.
--
Chris Crawford
http://www.crawfordandkline.com
Ahh, ok. I knowwhat you mean, I have worked with both the Frontier and the earlier Fuji SFA series optical labs. These Fuji machines were designed for pro labs. One hour labs are supposed to use simpler machines like the Gretag Master-Lab that are made for speed, not pro level color corrections and cropping and such.Yes I know what a final wash is. I was wanting Bob's idea of a
final wash. The frontier has 4 seperate rinse tanks with about 60%
of the time of proc. being in those tanks. The standard for most
equipment today both pro and minilabs.
Christopher Crawford wrote:
LOL..yep. I don't think I have the original Ilford paper anymore; I read it when I was in college. I do have that Photo Techniques article that references the Ilford work....I'll try to dig it up.HI Christopher I know what your are saying about bob but it just
rubs me the wrong way that he complains about someone he judges non
pro talking on the pro forum yet he spouts off about minilabs and
he is not at all correct in what he says. But you seem well versed
I would like to read that report by ilford.
After reading all the great things about CostCo and their Fuji
Frontier, yesterday I submitted a batch of customer proofs to them
online for printing. As part of my workflow, all images are
routinely tagged as copyright with my name and info. All proofs
also have a 'PROOF' stamp attached with the image number.
I just got an email from them telling me they won't print them:
=========================================
Thank you for ordering from the KODAK Picture Center at Costco.com!
Upon review of your order, it was determined that all or a portion
of your order is Copyrighted material. Therefore, we are unable to
reproduce any such print.
Any print or image bearing the name of a photographer or photographic
studio such as "COPYRIGHT," "COPR," "C," or the words "PROOF,"
"PRE-VUE" or any image that would appear to be copyrighted or
contain copyrighted images; or any combination of the foregoing
cannot be printed because a valid copyright claim is apparently
being made on such print or image. Reproduction of this image or
print may subject our company to possible litigation for copyright
infringement.
You have not been charged for this order. We appreciate your business
and hope your can appreciate our position on this matter.
Sincerely,
KODAK Picture Center at Costco.com
=========================================
Well, that's great - they're stopping people printing copyrighted
material - but how does that help me, the photographer, who's
trying to protect himself?! Has anyone else had this problem?
Jens
--
http://www.saeculis.com
GOOD!SImilar thing happened at Walmart when my wife tried to get scanned
copies of a photo from the class photos. mark
.Bob
Cost Co prints just as good as a pro lab's work?
Well I think you will find that is an over simplification of the
facts.
Anyone who has been a pro for a few years knows this to not be the
case.
You pay for whar you get.
I just hope you are not using Costco or Wallmart for pro jobs!
Bob
I was impressed, and, you know... felt pretty good that my images
make a one hour lab tech stop and ask questions....
them. The only difference was on reprints the local Pro lab did do
a better and more consistant job
After reading most of this thread, I had to weigh in on the side of sanity. I must agree with Bob on nearly everything he says. I have a degree in chemistry and have worked "behind the scenes" at true "prolabs" for 20 years. There is a difference, a minilab may be just fine on its good days , but a prolab survives because it almost never has a bad day. They pay people to monitor and produce consistant products and that costs more.Do you think every professional who pays these "outrageous" prices is stupid ? And you are wise because you use a quick and dirty lab ? Or maybe thats all there is where you live. But in big cities, where there is a choice, pros work with pros. The pros we printed for were given our best effort to make them look good for their customers, while the ones who pretended to be pros and bitched and moaned all the time while trying to make their poor efforts somehow look good enough to sell , did not. Just remember that on your next trip to the lab.only difference I was seeing is the price not the quality.
--
Ray
Lou,After reading most of this thread, I had to weigh in on the side of
sanity. I must agree with Bob on nearly everything he says. I have
a degree in chemistry and have worked "behind the scenes" at true
"prolabs" for 20 years. There is a difference, a minilab may be
just fine on its good days , but a prolab survives because it
almost never has a bad day. They pay people to monitor and produce
consistant products and that costs more.Do you think every
professional who pays these "outrageous" prices is stupid ? And you
are wise because you use a quick and dirty lab ? Or maybe thats all
there is where you live. But in big cities, where there is a
choice, pros work with pros. The pros we printed for were given our
best effort to make them look good for their customers, while the
ones who pretended to be pros and bitched and moaned all the time
while trying to make their poor efforts somehow look good enough to
sell , did not. Just remember that on your next trip to the lab.
Lou
The city I live in used to have three pro labs; now we only have one. The market's just dying because the quality difference is going away thanks to digital; photographers can do for themselves what they paid the lab for.just fine on its good days , but a prolab survives because it
almost never has a bad day.
I live in a big city lou. Fort Wayne's the second largest city in Indiana with almost 300,000 people. Like I said we had three pro labs; now there's one.there is where you live. But in big cities, where there is a
choice, pros work with pros.
--
RA4 still has a final wash or an inferior stabilization soak.LOL..yep. I don't think I have the original Ilford paperHI Christopher I know what your are saying about bob but it just
rubs me the wrong way that he complains about someone he judges non
pro talking on the pro forum yet he spouts off about minilabs and
he is not at all correct in what he says. But you seem well versed
I would like to read that report by ilford.
anymore; I read it when I was in college. I do have that Photo
Techniques article that references the Ilford work....I'll try to
dig it up.
--
Chris Crawford
http://www.crawfordandkline.com
What I'm saying Bob is based on something we here in Indiana like to call Ed-ju-ka-shun! Unscientific tests don't prove a thing. I have an education in chemistry which is quite a bit more valuable than any number of year spent working in labs. You guys in the labs don't formulate this stuff Bob, you just follow the directions on the bottle and pour it in. Do you know HOW the RA-4 process works at the molecular level? RC papers don't require long washes. If you do a residual Hypo test on an RC print washed by the method that follows you will find that the levels are at the archival standard of .02 micrograms per square meter. Put theprint in a tray of water, agititate for 30 seconds. Transfer to another tray of water, agitiate for another 30 seconds. Do this through 4-5 trays, and it's done. No running water needed. That's basically how the wash system of the frontier works. Pumps in the tanks agitate the water constantly. The agititation allows the tanks to have a considerable amount of chemistry in them and still wash (the final one has almost none, as it's replenished with fresh water at a very high rate). There's no stabilizer in the Fuji Labs setup...Kodak still usues it. Many chemists now believe thatthe stabilizers, most based on Formaldyhyde, are what is responsible for the fading you saw on older minilab prints. Which is to say you were right about the final wash atthe time you did the tests, and with the chemistry and papers you tried. But the Frontier's prints are archival.RA4 still has a final wash or an inferior stabilization soak.
The large RA4 color print processors still use the final wash
because it is still the best way to remove residual chemistry even
now the end of 2002.
I guess you will learn all about print longevity when customers
come back to you with prints that are fading and color shifting.
But you seem to know it all. I am sure you will know how to deal
with irate customers in a few years.
I would like to know how many fading tests you have conducted
personally? I am going to guess none! I have conducted numerous
tests in this area. So I can speak from first hand knowledge.
Do the tests then I will listen to what you have to say in this area.
I constantly run tests to make sure product is up to standards can
yopu say that as well?
Bob
Bob
If you read my post, I said 'for 20 years' , not 20 years ago, my experience is continuing to the present. And sorry, Fort Wayne ain't exactly a mecca for pro photography that NY or even Seattle is. That is a sorry situation there and I wouldn't use a lab that disrespected it's customers the way you describe and they deserve to bite the dust as well. These are hard times for traditional photo labs , but not entirely for the reasons you list. Bob had steered the discussion towards a critique of mini-labs RA4 chemistry QC when I joined in. This is a separate issue from all the other purely digital concerns. If you want to spend your hard earned bucks at a mini lab, fine, but it's not the equal of a well run Pro lab."prolabs" for 20 years.
Lou,just fine on its good days , but a prolab survives because it
almost never has a bad day. .Do you think every
professional who pays these "outrageous" prices is stupid ? And you
are wise because you use a quick and dirty lab ?
Lou I to have spent many hours in the darkroom working my behind off to save some half whit photographers bacon when he did a bad job on his end. Then he would ***** and moan about the poor prints..Bob
Cost Co prints just as good as a pro lab's work?
Well I think you will find that is an over simplification of the
facts.
Anyone who has been a pro for a few years knows this to not be the
case.
You pay for whar you get.
I just hope you are not using Costco or Wallmart for pro jobs!
BobI was impressed, and, you know... felt pretty good that my images
make a one hour lab tech stop and ask questions....them. The only difference was on reprints the local Pro lab did do
a better and more consistant jobAfter reading most of this thread, I had to weigh in on the side ofonly difference I was seeing is the price not the quality.
--
Ray
sanity. I must agree with Bob on nearly everything he says. I have
a degree in chemistry and have worked "behind the scenes" at true
"prolabs" for 20 years. There is a difference, a minilab may be
just fine on its good days , but a prolab survives because it
almost never has a bad day. They pay people to monitor and produce
consistant products and that costs more.Do you think every
professional who pays these "outrageous" prices is stupid ? And you
are wise because you use a quick and dirty lab ? Or maybe thats all
there is where you live. But in big cities, where there is a
choice, pros work with pros. The pros we printed for were given our
best effort to make them look good for their customers, while the
ones who pretended to be pros and bitched and moaned all the time
while trying to make their poor efforts somehow look good enough to
sell , did not. Just remember that on your next trip to the lab.
Lou
Fort Wayne may not be New York, but it's the only big city in Northern Indiana...as a result virtually all commercial photography done in Indiana is either in Indianapolis or Fort Wayne. I've been told that the situation in Indianapolis is similar to here...people go to Frontier labs cause it's the same as the overpriced pro lab. The only thing the pro labs are good for is E-6 processing. The pro lab in Fort Wayne is the only place in all of Northern Indiana thatruns E-6 without sending it out. I go to them fot that, and I don't think their quality is very consistant. Several of the commercial people I know here have had problems with them on processing that came out pulled or pushed by mistake, and the lab ALWAYS blames the photographer. They never make mistakes!If you read my post, I said 'for 20 years' , not 20 years ago, my"prolabs" for 20 years.
experience is continuing to the present. And sorry, Fort Wayne
ain't exactly a mecca for pro photography that NY or even Seattle
is. That is a sorry situation there and I wouldn't use a lab that
disrespected it's customers the way you describe and they deserve
to bite the dust as well. These are hard times for traditional
photo labs , but not entirely for the reasons you list. Bob had
steered the discussion towards a critique of mini-labs RA4
chemistry QC when I joined in. This is a separate issue from all
the other purely digital concerns. If you want to spend your hard
earned bucks at a mini lab, fine, but it's not the equal of a well
run Pro lab.
Geez, It's nice to see what the people "behind the scenes" think of the people who keep them in business.Lou I to have spent many hours in the darkroom working my behindThe pros we printed for were given our
best effort to make them look good for their customers, while the
ones who pretended to be pros and bitched and moaned all the time
while trying to make their poor efforts somehow look good enough to
sell , did not. Just remember that on your next trip to the lab.
Lou
off to save some half whit photographers bacon when he did a bad
job on his end. Then he would ***** and moan about the poor prints.
All I could say is when you give the cook Shi# to work with then
you are going to get a Shi# sandwich.
I think all Pro photographers should work as custom color printers
for two years as a prerequisite to turning pro. Then you would know
better than to expect the lab to save your backside as a
photographer when you screw up.
Bob
Contrast that with the wal-mart I go to (different one) I've
never, ever had a problem. I'm friends with the manager of the
department, so they know I own the copyright to these professional
looking pictures. I drop the Cd off, an hour later, I've got
amazing prints. I tell them "these are cropped and color
corrected. Don't make any changes, just print one copy of each
image." So far, they've never let me down, and I'd recommend that
particular Wal-Mart to anyone.
Russ Jennings
When I first started going in, I just took normal stuff the first
couple times and learned who the best tech was. It is important to
talk to someone who know what they are doing and understands your
needs. The first few times I went in, they "corrected" my photos. I
asked what happened to them and they said "They're too dark. We
lightened them for you." I had them reprint them with no changes.
When I met their best tech, I made alot of conversation with her,
explained I'm a professional and that I spend quite a bit of time
on an expensive workstation using a $600 photo editing application
and that my results are exactly what I want printed. At my next
visit she remembered me and all the specifics. I now know here
schedule and only go in if she is there.
Getting to know the top person and letting them get to know you and
your professional will really smooth things over. It also helps
when Something goes wrong and they let you have mistakes at no
charge.
I had some business cards made up - 3 to a 4x6 - and asked for 100
copies. The machine went bonkers and it accidentally printed 500. I
didnt ask for them and they didnt need them so I got 1500 business
cards for $30. Wouldn't have happened with a tech I didnt "know".
Just some thoughts,
GageFX
--
E-10, LiPo, FL-40, Stroboframe 120 QF, Lumiquest Softbox,
Speedotron Force 10s, AlienBee B800s, HP P1100, Epson 777, Epson
1280
Well I have 25 years of darkroom experience, 17 years of minilab
and pro lab experience and 8 years of working as a teck for both
the big names. As with the camera its not so much the equipment as
the operator. There are plenty of minilabs that have good
operators who care about what they do that can put out great
consistent work. And there are some pro labs that I would not
trust with my snapshots. More and More the minilab and the prolab
are using the same equipment. The higher price at the Pro lab goes
to paying for better quality staff. I.E. not having to convince
them you shot the image. Good chemical control. And consistent
work. Extra effort services. But if you can find the right wally
world or other 1 hour lab that takes pride in its work and has the
right equipment then it would be worth it to take certain jobs to
them to save some money. This stuff about the longevity is total
nonsense I have prints from 1 to 10 years ago and have not noticed
any problems in fading. This is an area very important to Kodak
Fuji and the rest. I am sorry is simply is not an issue in a
properly run lab. whether it is mini or pro. The only thing that
I agree with bob on is know your lab, that is the key. If you
think all pro labs are created equall then you have not seen some
off the ones I have seen and If you think that all minilabs are
created equall then let me show you how to run one. When I worked
in one I put out the best work possible plots where tight and color
control was tight. Please dont judge all labs the same it is not
fair to the good ones and they are out there. And dont complain
abuot customer care issues with the minilab at wally world they
charge less but they pay there employees less to. You will always
get what you pay for. With the minilab you just have to do more of
the work for them and think ahead that is the price of cheaper
prints.
Well I have 25 years of darkroom experience, 17 years of minilab
and pro lab experience and 8 years of working as a teck for both
the big names. As with the camera its not so much the equipment as
the operator. There are plenty of minilabs that have good
operators who care about what they do that can put out great
consistent work. And there are some pro labs that I would not
trust with my snapshots. More and More the minilab and the prolab
are using the same equipment. The higher price at the Pro lab goes
to paying for better quality staff. I.E. not having to convince
them you shot the image. Good chemical control. And consistent
work. Extra effort services. But if you can find the right wally
world or other 1 hour lab that takes pride in its work and has the
right equipment then it would be worth it to take certain jobs to
them to save some money. This stuff about the longevity is total
nonsense I have prints from 1 to 10 years ago and have not noticed
any problems in fading. This is an area very important to Kodak
Fuji and the rest. I am sorry is simply is not an issue in a
properly run lab. whether it is mini or pro. The only thing that
I agree with bob on is know your lab, that is the key. If you
think all pro labs are created equall then you have not seen some
off the ones I have seen and If you think that all minilabs are
created equall then let me show you how to run one. When I worked
in one I put out the best work possible plots where tight and color
control was tight. Please dont judge all labs the same it is not
fair to the good ones and they are out there. And dont complain
abuot customer care issues with the minilab at wally world they
charge less but they pay there employees less to. You will always
get what you pay for. With the minilab you just have to do more of
the work for them and think ahead that is the price of cheaper
prints.
Sorry to burst your bubble Chris but I have my 6+ years of collage education as well as 5 + years of teaching and scientific research, at a 6 plus year Collage. I do not know what is being taught at the "Indiana University of Hog Calling", but it resembles Voodo Science.What I'm saying Bob is based on something we here in Indiana likeRA4 still has a final wash or an inferior stabilization soak.
The large RA4 color print processors still use the final wash
because it is still the best way to remove residual chemistry even
now the end of 2002.
I guess you will learn all about print longevity when customers
come back to you with prints that are fading and color shifting.
But you seem to know it all. I am sure you will know how to deal
with irate customers in a few years.
I would like to know how many fading tests you have conducted
personally? I am going to guess none! I have conducted numerous
tests in this area. So I can speak from first hand knowledge.
Do the tests then I will listen to what you have to say in this area.
I constantly run tests to make sure product is up to standards can
yopu say that as well?
Bob
Bob
to call Ed-ju-ka-shun! Unscientific tests don't prove a thing.
I have an education in chemistry which is quite a bit more valuable
than any number of year spent working in labs. You guys in the
labs don't formulate this stuff Bob, you just follow the directions
on the bottle and pour it in. Do you know HOW the RA-4 process
works at the molecular level? RC papers don't require long
washes. If you do a residual Hypo test on an RC print washed by
the method that follows you will find that the levels are at the
archival standard of .02 micrograms per square meter. Put
theprint in a tray of water, agititate for 30 seconds. Transfer to
another tray of water, agitiate for another 30 seconds. Do this
through 4-5 trays, and it's done. No running water needed.
That's basically how the wash system of the frontier works. Pumps
in the tanks agitate the water constantly. The agititation allows
the tanks to have a considerable amount of chemistry in them and
still wash (the final one has almost none, as it's replenished with
fresh water at a very high rate). There's no stabilizer in the
Fuji Labs setup...Kodak still usues it. Many chemists now
believe thatthe stabilizers, most based on Formaldyhyde, are what
is responsible for the fading you saw on older minilab prints.
Which is to say you were right about the final wash atthe time you
did the tests, and with the chemistry and papers you tried. But
the Frontier's prints are archival.
--
Chris Crawford
http://www.crawfordandkline.com
