Questions about going from G2 to 1Ds

Robert P Miller · Dec 26, 2002

I'd agree with 1/2 that statement. Nothing beats a true optical path for clarity. And on a properly designed SLR, it gives 100% of the view that is getting recorded.

On the other hand, IF live LCD preview COULD be implimented on a "PRO" class DSLR, I'm sure more than a few of us would welcome it. At the current state of technology, the sensor types used in non-"PRO" digital cameras allow live LCD use, but at a cost to quality. Perhaps the higher end DSLR chips will someday annex this feature. It is handy like a waist level finder which "Pros" have used for years. Current high end DSLR sensors in no way support Live LCD.

Even the much maligned Contax digital ( and non-digital )has an attachment to allow the optical viewfinder to display as a live LCD. A neat feature in certain cicumstances. Just a tool That's all. Just like any camera. Just tools.

Actually, Olympus has a decent approach with its live LCD and optical VF sharing the same path through a transparent pelical (Spelled right?) mirror/prizm. The camera is dead quiet (good for solemn moments,etc) as it has no mirror flip.

The downside is 2/10 a stop light trade off and they implimented the LCD with cludgy software. Live LCDs can look so much better than what Oly gave the Exxs.

I'm getting too non-nimble to be on the ground shooting pictures of children (to be at their level). I would welcome a live LCD preview which could flip to an angle where I am more able to control my mobility. That's why I shoot with a Sony 707 or the E-20 for now. I will miss these features which I've grown to like when I move to the "PRO" class DSLRs(any day now).

Picture a PJ in a war zone. A flip LCD could offer a chance to look and shoot around a corner or roof with out sticking his/her head directly behind the camera. Of course it is something else to break and the battry drain and luminosity may become issues, but it could still have vaue. It is just another means to get the shot.

So, yes I am an amature. I shot with Contax gear for 20 years, Kodak (they had some really good 35mm stuff in the 60's with Schneider lenses) and Canon as well for 15 years before that. I've sold a lot of prints and done many assignments. Not a working pro, but a casual one at times.

And yes I prefer the pentaprizm, but recognize the value of a live LCD. It seems to carry a stigma in some circles. I bet it won't in the coming years. It is too neat a tool to be relagated to the consumer pool forever.
Best,
Robert

John Mason · Dec 26, 2002

I was shooting Olympus OM1 at the time and I did a roll shot for a friend who had me use his canon. I couldn't believe the contrast and sharpness jump.

But Canon, long ago, made their switch to an electronic lens system.

Todd Corzett · Dec 26, 2002

While I can't comment on the 1D or 1Ds I was wondering what type of photography you take... and which lenses you were planning on getting? When spending +$7K on a camera, you don't want to put cheap lenses on it. I was wondering if you looked into any (my choice would be the 16-35f/2.8, 24-70f/2.8, 70-200f/2.8IS, 5of/1.4, 100 macro, and a tele depending on what you shoot)

I'd rather get the lenses I wanted (so I can take the picture I want) rather than a higher resolution camera, especially since I would only occasionally need the higher resolution (like only one or two times ever printing over 11x14). Also, for shooting action/motorsports the 8fps of the 1D would be used much more than 11MP.

I don't think you could ever be disappointed with the 1Ds, but just to buy it because it's the "best" doesn't make sense... I want to buy what I will/might use - the 1Ds in my opinion is a high $$$ camera for those who need high resolution images to print very large (but then you need a printer as well).

Just think about what you need, and if the higher resolution is a necessity (printing over 11x14 often) or if you'd be better of getting the higher fps of the 1D (while saving some money at the same time).

-Todd...

Juli Valley · Dec 26, 2002

Forget your FD lenses. The adaptors are not satisfactory.

Pasha · Dec 27, 2002

like the title says it's too big of a leap...

having the money to spend and spending it wisely are two different things... eventhough the latter of the two can pretty much guarantee that the first is always there...

first off, forget about the fd lenses... if you go for any modern canon slr the fd's just won't do... you mentioned that one of the reasons that you didn't want a d60 is because of it's "questionable" AF... well, how do you thing your 1Ds will perform when it has to shoot FD's through a converter?

second, you are much, MUCH mistaken if you think that you will fit anywhere within $8k... the first thing you'll need is a new set of lenses... since you're buying the "greatest and latest dslr" i assume that you will want to mount L's on it.. so let's start off with your 3 basic L's... 16-35, 28-70, and 70-200... this will get you started, while covering a decent range...

these 3 essential L's should run new for around $4K combined (if not more)... add to that all the flashes, extra batteries and all the other accessories that suddenly become a necessity and you're quickly starting to round $5-6K... of course that's not mentioning the fact that now you'll be commanding an 11mp camera, and after reading this forum you'll want to shoot RAW, so you'll suddenly find yourself running out of room on both your flash cards and your hd's... at 3fps the difference between write speeds of microdrives and flash cards is rather noticeable, so you'll suddenly find yourself buying a few extra 512mb cards instead of the cheaper microdrives... processing all those big files will also be a step to deal with... chances are you'll need a couple of extra extra large hd's just to process everything, as well as a more or less up to date cd or dvd burner (backing up all those raw files, and those big wonderful tiffs sure takes a tonn of space)... and i really hope your computer is uptodate when it comes to processor, chipset and memory... for the sake of argument let's say that you're only missing some of these things, so let's add another grand to the total and we'll be somewhere between $6-7K...

now that totals up to around $15K (a price of a small civic)... that's quite a leap from a

my advice is simple - wait... the first thing you should realize is that your investment is in the lenses not the body... your L's will hold their value very well and it'll be quite awhile untill they're anywhere near obsolete... in the meantime start making phone calls... B&H, Adorama and Sammy's all have great used departments... ask them to give you a call when a clean L comes in... chances are the 3 L's mentioned above should all be available from at least one of these places... i bought a few lenses used from these three in the last year, all were in fantastic shape at a really great price...

then you should decide on your body... d60 is a very capable camera... and is a great entry into the dslr arena... if you have your mind set on the 1 class instead of the D class, start off with the 1d instead of the 1ds... you can pick up a nice refurb from a number of places for under $3k... it'll use the same batteries as 1ds and since it's the same body it'll be a nice way to learn the finer details of the 1 line... if after that you stil feel that you absolutely need 11mp, then sell your 1d sometime in March/April... you should be able to recover most of what you paid for it, and by that time the price of 1ds should drop, and drop nicely...

i know it's a long rambling post, but there's a point in there somewhere...

Henrik Tived · Dec 27, 2002

all the below equipment were stolen on December 19th 2002
Perth Western Australia
--

D60 w/grip 16-35L,28-70L,70-200L IS, 300L f/4 and 100f/2.5Macro,50mm f/1.4, 1.4xII 2x550EX, ST-E2 - remote timer
too much to carry!! but a lot of fun to use, it was

Stuart Rider · Dec 27, 2002

Jack,

I can understand why you want to move up from a G2, but a 1Ds is a huge leap. It may be such a big step that it'll actually put you off at first.

The 1D and 1Ds are big, heavy cameras. The L series lenses are also big and heavy. Believe me, you don't carry a 1D around all day unless you think you're going to get some good shots. The big cameras and lenses also draw a lot of attention, some unwanted. They can also be very intimidating for subjects, especially in candid/informal situations. I'm actually thinking of getting an S45 next year because of this.

The file sizes from the 1Ds are huge! Storage and processing requirements are very high. RAW files from a 6Mp D60 convert to 36Mb Tiffs, which takes a lot of PC power to work with. I have a 2Ghz P4, with 200Gb HD, and 512Mb RAM, and handling these files is still not quick. You'll also need a big backup system, such as a DVD-R.

I'd strongly recommend taking a step inbetween where you are now, and a 1Ds style camera. A used D30 or D60 would be a good start. You can start building a lens collection, and get used to the handling and other issues surrounding DSLRs. Then, when you're ready, you can look at a 1D class body, if you need it.

For most purposes, the D60 is all the camera you'll ever need. The AF isn't as bad as people say, and the resolution is good enough for a good A3 print (as is the 1D). It's main drawbacks are lack of wideangle, and AF which isn't suitable for sport or fast action.

For me it's not about the money, if you want to spend $10K+ on a camera, that's up to you. I do feel strongly however that a 1Ds may be a bit overwhelming at this point. It's difficult to think of a good analogy, but I think it's a bit like going from a Civic to a Ferrari because you wanted something a bit quicker. Sure, it gets the job done, but comes with a host of issues of it's own.

By the way, I own a D60, 1D, and lots of other kit, so I speak from experience. My own camera history is Kodak DC265, Olympus E10, D30, D60, 1D. Each time I upgraded when I was being held back by the body. The 1D is used for Motorsport BTW.

Whatever you choose, enjoy it!

--
Cheers,

Stuart Rider.

laupi · Dec 27, 2002

I love your decision - I always appreciate people who think big! Many others of this forum discuss over d60 vs. d30 vs 1D. Your step is simple and straightforward - no long argue - its great - continue like that and dont become a peanut counter like many others answering your questions...... you are doing right!!!!!!

Joo · Dec 27, 2002

Hmmm...

First I'll answer your question. The LCD on the 1Ds does not show a live preview. Because of the nature of an SLR that uses a mirror, a live preview on the LCD is generally not possible. I won't go into the reasons right now.

But, even if you could get a live preview, I doubt I would advise using it unless you had it on a tripod. DSLRs, especially the 1D and 1Ds, are heavy beasts. Then add on top of it the weight of the lens. I find that its much more stable to hold the camera closer to the body than to hold it further away. If you hold it further away, then your arms are extended which makes it harder to hold a heavy camera.

Joo

--

Maybe one day I'll take a decent picture. In the meantime, I'll blame the equipment.
http://www.pbase.com/jchung/portfolio

Juli Valley · Dec 27, 2002

Sorry, Henrik.

Matthew Cromer · Dec 27, 2002

I too can't understand the snobbery that refuses to recognize a useful innovation when its available.

With my Sony 717 I use the LCD viewfinder more than half the time. Whenever the camera is on a tripod, when I need to hold the camera up in the air, or shoot from down low, the pivoting LCD just makes it easy.

I only use the viewfinder when I need to track motion and/or shoot handheld.

--
my favorite work: http://www.pbase.com/sdaconsulting/favorite_work

Georg Herbet · Dec 27, 2002

Jack, you'll love the IDs. Your thinking is right on. No reason to try to D60 first. Its AF is insulting. Also, this business about going from the G2 to 1Ds being like going from Windows to Cray is just bunk. The 1Ds is a camera, quite user friendly for those who know cameras, and it takes wonderful photos.

salim madjd · Dec 27, 2002

Jack,

Don't forget about lenses. A camera like that need a lot of nice glasses to go with it.

Expect to spend $2-3k for a couple of nice L zooms (24-70, and 70-200), plus a 550ex flash, filters and etc.

I hope you have about $12-13k to spend all together.

Good luck, and I hope you get the equimpment.

salim

Calvin Chann · Dec 27, 2002

Jack

When I first read your post, I was about to go the way of many in this thread. However, due to technical problems, replying was too much trouble, so I gave up.

Not knowing your personal financial situation, and I really don't want to, if you have more than the necessary funds to purchase the 1Ds with all the additional items mentioned in various posts, then by all means go for it, I'm sure you won't be disappointed, but, if you have saved carefully enough just for the 1Ds, then you may wish to consider points made by others here.

I am learning through this forum that it is better to build a system around a good set of lenses and get the body that will be enough for what I need, rather than be fixated on a particular body, which will be replaced faster than the lenses you may chose to buy now.

Even after reading your second post, I would still say, think about it. Especially as your FD lenses won't work and that will incurr additional expenditure that you may not have considered previously.

HTH

Franklin · Dec 27, 2002

Jack,
Go get 1Ds and post some images from it.

You are a man who is serious about his hobby (F1 is not cheap in its days). and I think 1Ds is made for you. When I was single and serious about photography, I had Nikon F3 with several Nikkor lenses and Hasselblad on my meer teaching assist salaies in graduate school. But I found myself using compact/auto camera more often than my SLRs after I got married and had kid. If I want a DSLR, I can afford one comfortably on my not-so-shabby salary for a highly experienced and specialized IT professional. However I don't see myself drag a SLR with several lens on family vacations and other gatherings. Now after going through over 10 digital cameras in the last 2-3 years, I am now a proud owner of Canon G3 with 420ex, ST-E2. I like the setup and it fits my need perfectly. Maybe I will get another 420ex or 550ex to do multiple flashes.
All in all, if you like it and the size and weight is not an issue, go get it.

Forrest41926 · Dec 27, 2002

I really don't agree. I'm using a 16-35L, a 50/1.4, and a 100/2.8 Macro. I can't see any use for a 24/28-70L or a 70-200L. I can see an occasional need for a 200 mm prime ( and sometimes a 400 mm ) ... but that's rare enough that I could rent them for now.

I've also been getting by without a flash.

That's why they make so many lenses, flashes, macro ringlights, and everything else ... because we all have different needs. If you're going to use a one-size-fits-all mentality, you might as well stick with a G2.

Robert P Miller · Dec 27, 2002

I'm glad to see I'm not the only voice in the woods on the Live LCD concept. And no one flamed us -yet!

Nice pictures on your site. I liked all I saw. " Dawn Migration" has a pretty muted tone for a Sony. Some times those Sonys are hard to tame. You work with yours well.

I'm on the Canon forum 'cause I'm still fence sitting on this DSLR thing. I'm #2 on a waiting list for the delayed Kodak 14n, but really thinking hard about the 1Ds or 1D. I gave up on the D60 as I was on waiting lists for months with no camera coming my way. Very frustrating!

I love wide angle and natural low light, so the 1Ds has qiute an appeal for me. And I hear you can get them!
Best,
Robert

Z (is real) · Dec 27, 2002

A better analogy is that it is like going from a PDA to a laptop.

-Z-

bill71053 · Dec 27, 2002

Jack

The real reason for not having a preview screen is that with the G2, there is no thru the lens focusing, it is purely autofocus. On an SLR, you focus by looking through the lens. Yes, it can use autofocus, and does a good job, but sometimes you need to focus manually. The preview screen is not a good tool for determining crisp focus.

Enjoy the 1Ds. I'm sure you will love it.

I do agree with some of the other posters though, that you might want to try something like a D60 first. By the time you got used to everything on the D60, you could probably have both for the original cost of the 1Ds. If money is no object, just go for the 1Ds. You did say, though, that you saved up for the 1Ds.

Enjoy!!!
Bill

--
Bill

Georg Herbet · Dec 29, 2002

Perhaps. But I find PDAs more difficult to use than laptops.

You know, luxury items can often be easier to use than their lower-priced counterparts. I would not hesitate to give my 1DS to my p&s girlfriend.

It really comes down to how much money you have combined with how important photography is to you.

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