Noob question: Aperture ring on lens

dbrowdy

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Hi, quick simple question: If I get an older pre-AFS lens that isn't "gelded", do I HAVE to use the aperture ring to set the aperture size on my D5000? Or will my camera take care of it? How does that work if I have to use the ring, if I'm in "P" mode, will the camera act like it's in "A" mode?

Thanks!
 
If your non 'gelded' lens is a 'D' lens then set you set the lens's aperture to it's smallest value and control aperture through the camera as usual. If it's an 'AI' lens then you control the aperture on the lens, in which case I don't think 'P' mode will operate.
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Pat
 
If your lens is an AF or AF-D the autofocus will not work but it will couple to the meter and the camera functions in all exposure modes (P,S,A,M). Meter does not function with non-CPU lenses such as AI lenses and camera only operates in manual (M) exposure mode.
 
If your lens is an AF or AF-D the autofocus will not work but it will couple to the meter and the camera functions in all exposure modes (P,S,A,M). Meter does not function with non-CPU lenses such as AI lenses and camera only operates in manual (M) exposure mode.
One correction: there are several AF-D lenses that are also AF-S. Two are still in production, the 17-35 f/2.8 and the 300 f/4. There are also a couple G lenses that are not AF-S, as I recently found out in a similar thread.

Summary: look for AF-S not D or G when determining if a lens will focus on your D5000.
 
If your non 'gelded' lens is a 'D' lens then set you set the lens's aperture to it's smallest value and control aperture through the camera as usual. If it's an 'AI' lens then you control the aperture on the lens, in which case I don't think 'P' mode will operate.
--
Pat
Thanks for all the responses, everyone. I was looking at getting an older lens for macro stuff (like the 105mm f/2.8) and wasn't sure if it'd be something I'd regret. The price is right on the older lenses and lack of AF on my body isn't a big deal with macro (or so I've read).

Sounds like if I stick with "AF" and "AF-D" I should be fine? That 105 is an AF-D I think.
 
... If it's an 'AI' lens then you control the aperture on the lens, in which case I don't think 'P' mode will operate.
Actually any AI lens will allow camera control of the aperture as long as the lens is set to it's maximum aperture. In all modes, including P.

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http://101-365.com/
 
Actually any AI lens will allow camera control of the aperture as long as the lens is set to it's maximum aperture. In all modes, including P.
this is completely incorrect.
 
Some of the best macros are MF with aperture rings. I have (and use often) the 55 f/3.5 (AI'ed) and the Tamron 90 f/2.5 - both with aperture rings.

With macro, taking a few seconds to change your aperture is not a big deal. It actually slows you down and bit and lets you think out your shot instead of just snapping away. You are likely to spend much more time trying to get the focus right with a MF lens than you will take setting the aperture on the ring.

Similarly, for posed portraits the aperture ring is not a big deal. My Nikon 105 f/2.5 AI is easy to set.

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Catallaxy
 
Actually any AI lens will allow camera control of the aperture as long as the lens is set to it's maximum aperture. In all modes, including P.
this is completely incorrect.
So it's AF and AF-D only?
correct.

the lens needs a computer chip for a modern camera to control aperture. the reason it can't (or rather, doesn't) control aperture in AI lenses is because the camera comes with no way to tell the difference between AI and AI lenses. some older film cameras (like the FA) had a special prong on the surface of the lens mount that would read whether or not the lens had a small groove in back of its mount. if the groove is there, it's AIs. if it's not, AI. AI lenses couldn't be used in S or P modes because they had a non-linear scale for the aperture activation mechanism. AIs lenses could be used in S and P modes on the FA.

but, as i said, modern cameras lack this prong. i guess there were too many other important thing to cram in there or something. more amateur cameras don't even have the AI metering tab, and will just read an "F--" or "Fee" error message when a non-cpu lens is attached. they'll still function in manual (i forget if they'll fire in other modes), and will not meter. more professional cameras, starting with the D7000, and including all of the D#00 and D#, have the AI metering tab, and will function in A and M, and meter. they will not know the aperture of the lens (for metadata) unless you tell them, as AI metering only counts down stops from wide open. these cameras will still fire in S and P modes, but i believe they will always leave the lens wide open.

in AF and AFd lenses, there is a computer chip that communicates to the camera the lens's focal length, maximum aperture, etc. it's worth noting that the whether or not the lens is set to the minimum aperture is determined by the camera with an AI metering tab -- either the standard one in three/one digit cameras, or a separate one around the bottom of the mount on smaller cameras. these lenses will allow the camera to control the len's aperture via the camera, although on three/one digit cameras, you also have the option of allowing aperture ring control, if present. setting the lens to a specific aperture is actually more reliable than allowing the camera to control it, but almost nobody notices except time-lapse photogs.
 
arachnophilia wrote:

more professional cameras, starting with the D7000, and including all of the D#00 and D#, have the AI metering tab, and will function in A and M, and meter. they will not know the aperture of the lens (for metadata) unless you tell them, as AI metering only counts down stops from wide open. these cameras will still fire in S and P modes, but i believe they will always leave the lens wide open.

NOT THE D100...AI lenses meter on the D200 and newer models....
 
the reason it can't (or rather, doesn't) control aperture in AI lenses is because the camera comes with no way to tell the difference between AI and AI(S) lenses.
While I agree with the rest of your post, this part is not correct. Very few cameras that Nikon ever made actually made use of the lens type signal notch. I believe the N2000, N2020 and the FA were the only ones. I don't believe any of the digital bodies make use of it, which is why AIS lenses with the signal notch still won't meter on most bodies.

In order for the meter to work, the camera requires two pieces of info from the lens, the maximum aperture of the lens and what aperture you've selected. Nikon cameras take their meter reading with the lens wide open. In order for the camera to evaluate the amount of light coming in, it has to know what the maximum aperture is. D and G lenses convey this info to the camera via the CPU, while AI/AIS lenses use a lens speed post sticking out of the back of the lens and require a lens speed indexing tab on the camera (pre-AI cameras use the "rabbit ears" sticking out of the side of the lens). Most cameras don't have this tab anymore, which is why you have to manually input the max aperture in the camera even on digital bodies that do meter with AI/AIs lenses. Without an aperture follower tab, the camera has no way of knowing what aperture you've selected on the lens, thus it cannot give the appropriate shutter speed.
 
Thanks a lot for the thorough response, that was very helpful!
 
the reason it can't (or rather, doesn't) control aperture in AI lenses is because the camera comes with no way to tell the difference between AI and AI(S) lenses.
While I agree with the rest of your post, this part is not correct. Very few cameras that Nikon ever made actually made use of the lens type signal notch. I believe the N2000, N2020 and the FA were the only ones.
that's probably correct. there might be a few more, but i don't recall. i know the FA did have it, for sure, because i was looking into getting one about 10 years ago, when i was still using film.
I don't believe any of the digital bodies make use of it, which is why AIS lenses with the signal notch still won't meter on most bodies.
no, this isn't correct. AI and AIs lenses will both meter on a D#00 and D# cameras (excluding the D100, as kitacanon points out), even though those cameras lack the signal post that detects the difference between AI and AIs. there are actually three points of communication between the camera and an AIs lens.

1. the AI ridge on the aperture ring tells the camera how many stops the lens is stopped down from wide open.
2. the groove we've already discussed.

3. a small secondary ridge of the other side of the aperture ring that can be used to tell the camera when a lens is at minimum aperture.

this is the same little bit that tells modern cameras when an AF-d lens is set to minimum aperture.
In order for the meter to work, the camera requires two pieces of info from the lens, the maximum aperture of the lens and what aperture you've selected.
the dirty secret of AI metering is that the camera actually requires neither of those things. all AI metering does is count down stops from wide open. seriously. my FM2n has no idea what lens i'm using, what its maximum aperture is, or what aperture i've selected. yet it meters just fine. all it knows is how much light is hitting the meter, and how many stops i want to stop the lens down for the exposure.
Nikon cameras take their meter reading with the lens wide open. In order for the camera to evaluate the amount of light coming in, it has to know what the maximum aperture is. D and G lenses convey this info to the camera via the CPU, while AI/AIS lenses use a lens speed post sticking out of the back of the lens and require a lens speed indexing tab on the camera (pre-AI cameras use the "rabbit ears" sticking out of the side of the lens). Most cameras don't have this tab anymore, which is why you have to manually input the max aperture in the camera even on digital bodies that do meter with AI/AIs lenses.
no, you're quite confused here. there are posts that stick out of the back of lenses. they don't have anything to do with aperture; they tell some cameras (again, mostly the FA) the approximate focal length of the lens. the aperture information is communicated by the ridge of the rear of the aperture ring.

on digital bodies that do have the tab that contacts this rings, you do not actually need to tell the camera either the focal length or the maximum aperture of the lens. the camera will function without either piece of information, and meter like an older AI camera (eg: an FM). your apertures will read ^f0, ^f1, ^f2, etc, counting down from wide open (^f0). giving the camera information about what that maximum aperture is, and what the focal length is, more or less only affects the meta-data (there's apparently some matrix metering voodoo going on as well).

on digital bodies that do not have the tab, there's another prong that contacts the other portion of the ridge that tells the camera the lens is set to minimum aperture. the reason people tell you not to attach pre-AI lenses even to cheaper cameras is because this metering prong is still present. the d40's prong was spring-loaded and compressed into the body, so pre-AI lenses could be safely mounted.
Without an aperture follower tab, the camera has no way of knowing what aperture you've selected on the lens, thus it cannot give the appropriate shutter speed.
again, this is not true. both my d200 and my d700 meter just fine without lens information of any kind. in fact, if you have a camera that can meter with AI lenses, this is simple to test -- remove the lens information, blank it out. change the maximum aperture setting, in A mode. shutter speed will remain constant. all it really knows is:

1. how much light is hitting the meter,
2. how many stops you want the lens to stop down, and
3. the information you give it.
 
I don't claim to be an expert, but there are a few points that I still disagree with you on.
I don't believe any of the digital bodies make use of it, which is why AIS lenses with the signal notch still won't meter on most bodies.
no, this isn't correct. AI and AIs lenses will both meter on a D#00 and D# cameras (excluding the D100, as kitacanon points out), even though those cameras lack the signal post that detects the difference between AI and AIs. there are actually three points of communication between the camera and an AIs lens.
What I was trying to say is that the signal notch can't have anything to do with whether or not the digital cameras will meter with an AIS lens because the camera has no way of detecting if the notch is there or not. The D200's and up will meter, but it's because of the aperture follower mechanism.
1. the AI ridge on the aperture ring tells the camera how many stops the lens is stopped down from wide open.
2. the groove we've already discussed.

3. a small secondary ridge of the other side of the aperture ring that can be used to tell the camera when a lens is at minimum aperture.
I'm still not convinced about #2. My N2000 does detect the difference between AI and AIS lenses. When an AI lens is mounted, the meter still behaves normally and any aperture and shutter speed can be used. The only difference when an AIS lens is mounted is that the cameras allows the P HI mode to be set.
this is the same little bit that tells modern cameras when an AF-d lens is set to minimum aperture.
In order for the meter to work, the camera requires two pieces of info from the lens, the maximum aperture of the lens and what aperture you've selected.
the dirty secret of AI metering is that the camera actually requires neither of those things. all AI metering does is count down stops from wide open. seriously. my FM2n has no idea what lens i'm using, what its maximum aperture is, or what aperture i've selected. yet it meters just fine. all it knows is how much light is hitting the meter, and how many stops i want to stop the lens down for the exposure.
Nikon cameras take their meter reading with the lens wide open. In order for the camera to evaluate the amount of light coming in, it has to know what the maximum aperture is. D and G lenses convey this info to the camera via the CPU, while AI/AIS lenses use a lens speed post sticking out of the back of the lens and require a lens speed indexing tab on the camera (pre-AI cameras use the "rabbit ears" sticking out of the side of the lens). Most cameras don't have this tab anymore, which is why you have to manually input the max aperture in the camera even on digital bodies that do meter with AI/AIs lenses.
no, you're quite confused here. there are posts that stick out of the back of lenses. they don't have anything to do with aperture; they tell some cameras (again, mostly the FA) the approximate focal length of the lens. the aperture information is communicated by the ridge of the rear of the aperture ring.
The posts sticking out of the rear of the lens do convey aperture information, if your camera is equipped to read it. See this page: http://www.zi.ku.dk/personal/lhhansen/photo/MAIPposition.htm The follower tab on my N2000 that corresponds to this post can be seen located inside the lens mount in this picture:





There is a separate post that tells the camera when a lens of 135mm or greater is mounted. See: http://www.zi.ku.dk/personal/lhhansen/photo/FLIR.htm
on digital bodies that do not have the tab, there's another prong that contacts the other portion of the ridge that tells the camera the lens is set to minimum aperture. the reason people tell you not to attach pre-AI lenses even to cheaper cameras is because this metering prong is still present. the d40's prong was spring-loaded and compressed into the body, so pre-AI lenses could be safely mounted.
If I'm understanding you correctly here, the tab that you are referring to here and in you #3 above is the EE servo tab. See: http://www.zi.ku.dk/personal/lhhansen/photo/EE.htm To the best of my knowledge, on modern cameras, this tab serves only to verify that the lens is set to it's minimum aperture. Maybe there are some cameras out there that use this ridge for aperture info, but on all of my cameras that have an EE servo tab, it only makes contact when the lens is at minimum aperture. At all other apertures, this tab makes contact with nothing. The AI coupling ridge is on the other side of the lens near the locking mechanism and the signal notch. See: http://www.zi.ku.dk/personal/lhhansen/photo/mcr.htm The aperture follower is located outside the lens mount at about the 1 o'clock position in this picture, again of my n2000, which is the only camera I have the has an aperture follower.




Without an aperture follower tab, the camera has no way of knowing what aperture you've selected on the lens, thus it cannot give the appropriate shutter speed.
again, this is not true. both my d200 and my d700 meter just fine without lens information of any kind. in fact, if you have a camera that can meter with AI lenses, this is simple to test -- remove the lens information, blank it out. change the maximum aperture setting, in A mode. shutter speed will remain constant. all it really knows is:

1. how much light is hitting the meter,
2. how many stops you want the lens to stop down, and
3. the information you give it.
I'm not sure I follow. How would the camera know what aperture you have selected on the lens without the aperture follower tab? Also, if the D200 and D700 don't need the follower tab, then why do they have them?
 
What I was trying to say is that the signal notch can't have anything to do with whether or not the digital cameras will meter with an AIS lens because the camera has no way of detecting if the notch is there or not. The D200's and up will meter, but it's because of the aperture follower mechanism.
yes, that'd be right. that was what i was trying to say as well. what i was saying above was that the reason P and S modes are disabled on the D200 and up is because the camera has no way to determine if that notch is there or not -- ie: no way to determine if the lens is AIs as opposed to just AI. the aperture mechanism inside AI (and pre-AI) lenses functions differently compared to AIs, and the camera needs to know the difference to accurately control aperture.
I'm still not convinced about #2. My N2000 does detect the difference between AI and AIS lenses. When an AI lens is mounted, the meter still behaves normally and any aperture and shutter speed can be used. The only difference when an AIS lens is mounted is that the cameras allows the P HI mode to be set.
yes, the meter should behave normally. the groove only tells the difference between AI and AIs, and has nothing to do with metering . it does however affect how the camera controls aperture in the lens. without the bit that goes into it, the camera doesn't know AI from AIs, so nikon disables camera controlled aperture.

does the N2000 work in shutter priority with AI lenses? it's probably possible it does, but i was under the impression that shutter priority and program are only available with AIs lenses.
The posts sticking out of the rear of the lens do convey aperture information, if your camera is equipped to read it. See this page: http://www.zi.ku.dk/personal/lhhansen/photo/MAIPposition.htm ... There is a separate post that tells the camera when a lens of 135mm or greater is mounted. See: http://www.zi.ku.dk/personal/lhhansen/photo/FLIR.htm
ah, yes. you are correct. i was mistaken.
on digital bodies that do not have the tab, there's another prong that contacts the other portion of the ridge that tells the camera the lens is set to minimum aperture. the reason people tell you not to attach pre-AI lenses even to cheaper cameras is because this metering prong is still present. the d40's prong was spring-loaded and compressed into the body, so pre-AI lenses could be safely mounted.
If I'm understanding you correctly here, the tab that you are referring to here and in you #3 above is the EE servo tab. See: http://www.zi.ku.dk/personal/lhhansen/photo/EE.htm To the best of my knowledge, on modern cameras, this tab serves only to verify that the lens is set to it's minimum aperture.
yes. i've heard of people modding cameras to jam the prong that reads the EE servo tab into the minimum aperture position. i forget exactly the purpose behind this, but i think it enables use of the aperture ring on AF/AF-d and chipped lenses.
Maybe there are some cameras out there that use this ridge for aperture info, but on all of my cameras that have an EE servo tab, it only makes contact when the lens is at minimum aperture. At all other apertures, this tab makes contact with nothing.
right, it tells the camera whether or not the lens is set to the minimum aperture. it's not used for metering, just making sure your AF and AF-d lenses are locked down to their smallest apertures.
The AI coupling ridge is on the other side of the lens near the locking mechanism and the signal notch. See: http://www.zi.ku.dk/personal/lhhansen/photo/mcr.htm
right, and what's interesting is that the modern dSLRs that have one don't have the other. the two are actually partially redundant, when you have a chipped lens -- which contains information like maximum aperture.
again, this is not true. both my d200 and my d700 meter just fine without lens information of any kind. in fact, if you have a camera that can meter with AI lenses, this is simple to test -- remove the lens information, blank it out. change the maximum aperture setting, in A mode. shutter speed will remain constant. all it really knows is:

1. how much light is hitting the meter,
2. how many stops you want the lens to stop down, and
3. the information you give it.
I'm not sure I follow. How would the camera know what aperture you have selected on the lens without the aperture follower tab? Also, if the D200 and D700 don't need the follower tab, then why do they have them?
i'm sorry, i've lost you. the function of the aperture follower tab is #2 -- determining how many stops down from wide open the lens will be during exposure. it does not actually transmit any actual information about what aperture that is . the camera knows absolutely nothing about the lens, but it will meter anyways.

it doesn't matter if you tell it wide open is f/1.0 or you tell it wide open is f/22. it just looks at the light coming in through the lens mount and how many stop down the AI tab is set to. in A mode, it will then choose the shutter speed accordingly. it doesn't do this by knowing the f/stops. just knowing the light, and counting stops. you have to tell it what those stops are.
 
Ahh... now I think I understand what you're saying. I didn't realize that you were saying P and S modes were disabled on those digital cameras that due meter due to the lack of the lens type signal notch. I thought you were saying that that was part of why the meter didn't work at all on consumer bodies. I also thought you were saying that the follower tab wasn't necessary for metering on the D200 & 700. I think I was thrown off by the statement that you quoted me on and then said was incorrect. I understand what you are saying about the camera only needing to know how many stops down from max aperture and how it doesn't need to know what the actual F-stop is. My original post was based on my knowledge of older film cameras such as my N2000 and Nikkormat that do require the max aperture value in order to meter.

I checked the manual on my N2000 to make sure, but it does allow the use of program mode with AI lenses (I also verified this personally with the camera). It does not, however, allow TTL flash in program mode unless an AIS lens is mounted. It also doesn't allow Shutter priority with AI lenses, but that's only because it doesn't offer shutter priority at all. :-)

I also did some more checking, and the F4 also differentiates between AI and AIS via the lens type notch, so that brings the total up to 4 cameras- F4, FA, N2000/F301, and N2020/F501.
 
does the N2000 work in shutter priority with AI lenses? it's probably possible it does, but i was under the impression that shutter priority and program are only available with AIs lenses.
I don't think N2000 (if that is the same as F301) has shutter priority. But I know that FA has shutter priority, an that works, or at least seems to work, with AI lenses. The way it works, is that it meters as usual, then close the aperture as it was a AIS lens. But because it isn't AIS, and the camera has no clue of how much the aperture is closed down, it meters again, and compensate the shutter speed. So the exposure get right, but you don't get the right shutter speed. It works the same way in P.
 
Haven't done it myself, but I always thought that having an aperture ring is desirable when using a bellows for dedicated macro work. Is there a bellows, or cord, that will allow the data to be sent from the camera to the lens for 'gelded' lenses?
 

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