Someone on 43rumors solved 4/3 lens CDAF

Entropius

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I don't think this is too bold a claim. Whether Olympus is using this technique is another story, but the technique is viable in theory. Perhaps Olympus actually is using it, too -- based on their new IS. (Keep reading!)

As has been said, the problem with CDAF on 4/3 lenses is that their motors are not designed for it. PDAF systems can estimate how far the lens needs to slew in order to be in focus. So they make a measurement, instruct the lens motors to move the glass to that location, and then repeat until focus is achieved. The motors don't have to do things like reverse direction or start and stop quickly.

The trouble with CDAF is that all you get are "better" and "worse". You don't know whether the lens is focused too far in front or too far behind, or how much, so you wind up rapidly jiggling the lens around to see if it gets better or worse. The motors in the phase-detect lenses are not designed for this.

But wait! What if we had another way to change the focus of the lens other than the lens AF motor, a way that could make very rapid changes? Then we could use that for the rapid jiggling that causes problems for lens AF motors, figure out which way to go, and then engage the lens AF.

As anyone who has used old lenses (or the ZD 70-300) knows, moving the lens further or closer to the sensor will change the focus. Most modern lenses don't move all the elements together just because they weigh too much, but -- in principle -- you can do it this way.* So, what if there were a way to move the sensor instead? It's lighter than the lens elements and easier to move, so we could jiggle the sensor around to test the waters, and then use the lens AF motor to make "coarse" focusing adjustments.

Well, we've had movable sensors since the E-510 -- this is how Olympus IBIS works. The piezoelectric elements that move the lens can obviously move it very quickly and precisely, and start and stop it on a dime. (To confirm this, just take the lens off, turn IS on, and take a long exposure. Move the camera around and watch the sensor scoot around.) But this implementation of IBIS only moves the sensor side-to-side, not in and out, so it can't be used to change focus. In principle, though, there would be nothing too hard about putting an additional set of piezoelectrics (or whatever they use) on to move the sensor along the Z-axis (in and out).

BUT, it's been hinted that the new OM-D has "five-axis IBIS". This means -- up and down, left and right, roll, pitch, and yaw. If the sensor can pitch and yaw, then there are already Z-axis actuators on it -- and we have all the mechanical bits needed to move it in and out, also.

The comment is in here: http://www.43rumors.com/ft5-first-olympus-om-d-leaked-image/#comments .

As a plus, this trick could be used for focus finetune on manual lenses, too! You'll have to manually get it close, but then the shifting sensor can be used to finetune the AF.
 
One of the Contax film SLR's (I think it might have been the AX?) focused by moving the film plane backwards and forwards.
 
hey, entropius, I do love thinking alternative scenarios.
and if this is true, what you found, I'd cry out "hurrah, oly engineers!"
do the unexpected.
I like the idea!
thanks for posting!!!
BR gusti
 
what beautiful kind of USM :-)
 
As a plus, this trick could be used for focus finetune on manual lenses, too! You'll have to manually get it close, but then the shifting sensor can be used to finetune the AF.
I bet you even if they actually do the new AF this way its disabled for manual lenses. Just like with the old FC light.

Goffen

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I do agree that it will hardly work for manual lenses.
if you read the link about contax ax someone posted before,

then you will notice, that the sensor would need to move, depending on the lens and che nearest focus distance, up to 20mm if focusing would be done by the sensor alone.

so, it is for the piezodrive of the sensor, more logical that the sensor only moves a little and the remaining focusing movement is done by the motor driven focusing group of the lens. moreover lenses with floating elements would need to move these floating elements for close distance focusing ... so, the lenses still need, in addtiion to sensor movement for focusing, still the lens motor.

BR gusti
 
I don't think you'd get full AF on manual lenses, but you can definitely make fine adjustments. Then the operator of the manual lens only needs to get close with the focus ring, and the camera can do the rest. For instance, to move a 300mm lens from being focused at 10m to being focused at 20m, the sensor needs to shift by 5mm (about). This is about the most you could expect it to do.
 
so lens without floating elements (macro like) or zooms wont focus but primes will right?

a canon 50mm FD f1.4 that is usable at f2 would be great... to have autofocus sort of would it be possible? how would it work? always at infinity and then the sensor moving would make the image focus closer than infinity?
 
We have already discussed about this ideas here: http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1022&message=40362450 . Rriley proposed the name "wobble" for the for-aft movement necessary for CDAF.
A movement of the sensor along the Z axis could aid with:
  • effective stabilization in the macro range
  • fast CDAF assessment (wobble) during AF - AF still made using lens group
  • micro-adjustment of the image focal plane when using a PDAF system
  • AF, instead of lens movement (like in the Contax AX)
  • placing of the image focal plane at the flange back distance standard of different lens systems; useful for creating the 43-micro43 hybrid, if both lens types can be mounted on the same body without an adapter (probably not possible)
  • having a built-in extension tube when needed
The last three points require a very large travel so a very thick camera, really impractical and very improbable when looking at the first leaked image of the OM-D (slim body). With some lenses the Contax AX had to be focused manually up into a certain range where the AF could take over (the travel was insufficient for autofocusing from close-up to infinity for some lenses).

Also, don't forget that the Z axis movement would require the travel of the entire focal plane mechanical shutter (including its motor) and also probably of the X and Y axis stabilization system. That makes a large mass so low acceleration, precluding the use for the first two points above. That only leaves micro-adjustment for PDAF (if the reading is made with a dedicated PDAF sensor) and this is of little use to a mirrorless camera.

As a solution for having the required accuracy and precision of the movement, a distance measurement system can be imagined. The interference pattern from a laser diode placed on the internal frontal wall of the camera could be read directly by the main sensor.
 
Hate to be a skeptic, but I wonder if they meant '5 stop' rather than '5 axis' stabilization. The 5 axis thing would be a huge technical innovation, and can't imagine that it could be crammed into a

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Jeff

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jck_photos/sets/
 
thanks for killing our dream... lol

So that means no way to have PDAF right ? could the sensor have lines of PDAF in the borders of the sensor sides or up and down where it doesnt vignette ?
 
thanks for killing our dream... lol

So that means no way to have PDAF right ? could the sensor have lines of PDAF in the borders of the sensor sides or up and down where it doesnt vignette ?
There was a diagram from an Oly patent that seemed to show how PDAF could be done using reflected light from the sensor. So maybe there are other ways to do it.

I do hope they have something up their sleeves ...

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Jeff

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jck_photos/sets/
 
Italian saying that essentially says: Even if it isn't true, it's still a nice idea.

(Yes, I know, it is not used for technical stuff but for gossip, but I think it applies here.)

Thank you, Entropius, for a great post: creative and well explained. I enjoyed reading that. Let's wait and see if there is any truth in your thinking, but even if there isn't, I still liked your thinking-outside-of-the-box. You are a true "Olympian".

--
Roel Hendrickx

lots of images : http://www.roelh.zenfolio.com

my E-3 user field report from Tunisian Sahara: http://www.biofos.com/ukpsg/roel.html
 
Well said Roel!

Let's hope for a "tool" that help us keeping alive ours "sexy toys" :)

Family Portrait:





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still trying to learn...

http://paniko.zenfolio.com
 
I recognize most of what you have on that picture, but I think there are a few there that I have never used (90-250?).

My collection is a bit more erratic : not the full Zuiko line-up (but enough for me), while I have a few other odd bits and pieces (PL, Rokinon, lensbaby etc)
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Roel Hendrickx

lots of images : http://www.roelh.zenfolio.com

my E-3 user field report from Tunisian Sahara: http://www.biofos.com/ukpsg/roel.html
 
Unluckily (or luckily :) ) ther's no 90-250, I think you exchange the 50-200+EC14+Hood on for it :)

I've buyed almost them all used (other than 14-54I ,9-18 and 50F2) and i still have to sell some of them, but i don't know which one should leave the family. Maybe if the "dreaOM" will work as expected suspected, i'll sell the E3+14-54,70-200 Sigma and 9-18 to fill the money gap between me and the DreaOM :)

edit: the real shame for me it's that now I have more lenses than time to use them :(

--
still trying to learn...

http://paniko.zenfolio.com
 
I've thought of it, too.

The problem is that with a tele lenses and close up the focus is too far off for the sensor to move enough.
What I bet is this:

In the wake of focusing the sensor quickly moves back and forth to conclude which way the focus is off.
Focusing on lens starts in the RIGHT direction, sensor goes to middle position.

When focus is reached, contrast starts to lower and focusing motor is stopped but not reversed.
Instead the sensor does the final, quick focusing.

There's more: if in the first phase of sensor back and forth movement the sensor alone finds focus - voilá it's there in fractions of a second. (wide angles and when you shoot the same scenery repeatedly).

It would make sense for the lens to go to rest e.g. focused at 5 m (30 feet) when not used for a few minutes.

Otherwise also I am waiting to learn more of the coming OM body. Could the 16 Mpx sensor be full frame or APS-C size and the new line of accessories were a line of lenses.

All the bode with a sensor of current size are E-something bodies. If the sensor size stays the same the body should be called E-OM1. A body with OM designation should include a larger sensor than the present one.

Anyway I bet that the new fixed focal lenses to come carry the looks of OM lenses and that the program choice goes:
the ring on the lens: aperture value or A
the ring on the body (like OM-x bodies) shutter time or A
when both are on A it's the P mode.
very quick to move between P, A, S and M modes!
On top of the camera you need only a combined ISO / +- knob.

Best regards,
Kari
 
if I remember correctly Olympus had a patent with another lens in the middle from 4/3rd lens to sensor that moved. That's as close as to this it would be and I don't think they are going to be moving the sensor in/out. Many issues there.

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Raist3d/Ricardo (Photographer, software dev.)- "You are taking life too seriously if it bugs you in some way that a guy quotes himself in the .sig quote" - Ricardo
 
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Raist3d/Ricardo (Photographer, software dev.)- "You are taking life too seriously if it bugs you in some way that a guy quotes himself in the .sig quote" - Ricardo
 

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