What's the problem with the 500mm lens

I shoot wildlife and the 500mm lens has been on the Sony shows for some time now. What do you guys think is the problem with getting it out?
If Canon and Nikon can do it surely Sony can.

I am not a lens expert but here is list of important feature for long telephoto lens:

1) sharpness at maximum aperture, this is especially important for sports/wildlife shooters working with available light, as well as usable sharpness when teleconverter is added.

2) fast and reliable AF performance.

3) good CA control, even after adding TC.

4) smooth bokeh.

5) weather seal. This is the area Sony doesn't have much experience.

Sony want tomincorporate some unique feature in their 500mm prime (something to SLT), so all these take time to do, and need enough demand from market.

Sony has very few professional sports/nature/wildlife shooters who would pay for an expensive fast 500mm. Also SONY is very timid when it comes to their investment/commitment to optics for their camera systems. They are hedging their bets and have not invested in optics design, manufacturing and marketing to the same degree as Panasonic, Samsung or Canon/Nikon. This is a shame.

garyknrd said:

I shoot wildlife and the 500mm lens has been on the Sony shows for some time now. What do you guys think is the problem with getting it out?
If Canon and Nikon can do it surely Sony can.

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http://www.flickr.com/photos/hopeiseternal/

HopeSpringsEternal said:

Sony has very few professional sports/nature/wildlife shooters who would pay for an expensive fast 500mm. Also SONY is very timid when it comes to their investment/commitment to optics for their camera systems. They are hedging their bets and have not invested in optics design, manufacturing and marketing to the same degree as Panasonic, Samsung or Canon/Nikon. This is a shame.

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I expect it's the bean counters that are holding it up. Not sure they can make a profit off it, and they are making most of the benefits with the implication it's part of the lineup just showing it without having to spend the money to produce it.

I agree, Sony is very bad about thinking of interchangable lens cameras as a system. I believe they are still considering this system to be a throw away camera and lens. One can see it in this, in their pretty poor service system, in what they have not supported that Minolta did.

It's not just the pros who buy the big lenses. Though it's certainly true few can afford them. Even pros are more and more just renting them when they have a job that needs them.

Hi Walt,

What I meant was that the bean counters don't have confidence in sales of an expensive 500mm and in general Sony is not really placing any big bets on optics. They are very cautious and like you said, they are more interested in the low-end of the consumer market.

Just compare Fujifilm's premium lens announcements for its new X-mount to Sony's anemic E-mount lens lineup.

WaltKnapp said:

HopeSpringsEternal said:

Sony has very few professional sports/nature/wildlife shooters who would pay for an expensive fast 500mm. Also SONY is very timid when it comes to their investment/commitment to optics for their camera systems. They are hedging their bets and have not invested in optics design, manufacturing and marketing to the same degree as Panasonic, Samsung or Canon/Nikon. This is a shame.

Click to expand...

I expect it's the bean counters that are holding it up. Not sure they can make a profit off it, and they are making most of the benefits with the implication it's part of the lineup just showing it without having to spend the money to produce it.

I agree, Sony is very bad about thinking of interchangable lens cameras as a system. I believe they are still considering this system to be a throw away camera and lens. One can see it in this, in their pretty poor service system, in what they have not supported that Minolta did.

It's not just the pros who buy the big lenses. Though it's certainly true few can afford them. Even pros are more and more just renting them when they have a job that needs them.

Click to expand...

--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/hopeiseternal/

HopeSpringsEternal said:

Hi Walt,

What I meant was that the bean counters don't have confidence in sales of an expensive 500mm and in general Sony is not really placing any big bets on optics. They are very cautious and like you said, they are more interested in the low-end of the consumer market.

Click to expand...

The bean counters are probably the worst to be in control. Not photographers, not making decisions for improving photography. Yes they are needed, but the better companies allow them to be only part of the decision, not all of it.

HopeSpringsEternal said:

What I meant was that the bean counters don't have confidence in sales of an expensive 500mm and in general Sony is not really placing any big bets on optics. They are very cautious and like you said, they are more interested in the low-end of the consumer market.

Just compare Fujifilm's premium lens announcements for its new X-mount to Sony's anemic E-mount lens lineup.

WaltKnapp said:

HopeSpringsEternal said:

Sony has very few professional sports/nature/wildlife shooters who would pay for an expensive fast 500mm. Also SONY is very timid when it comes to their investment/commitment to optics for their camera systems. They are hedging their bets and have not invested in optics design, manufacturing and marketing to the same degree as Panasonic, Samsung or Canon/Nikon. This is a shame.

Click to expand...

I expect it's the bean counters that are holding it up. Not sure they can make a profit off it, and they are making most of the benefits with the implication it's part of the lineup just showing it without having to spend the money to produce it.

I agree, Sony is very bad about thinking of interchangable lens cameras as a system. I believe they are still considering this system to be a throw away camera and lens. One can see it in this, in their pretty poor service system, in what they have not supported that Minolta did.

It's not just the pros who buy the big lenses. Though it's certainly true few can afford them. Even pros are more and more just renting them when they have a job that needs them.

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It seems like there's a bit of chicken and egg going on here. If Sony wants to attract more high-end and pro shooters willing to fork out the bigger $$s for premium gear then they need to improve things like lens line-up and after-sales service. But they seem hesitant to do so without having more confirmed interest from the high-end segment of the market. And of course this interest will only grow if the gear and service is there in the first place.

Having worked with a few accountants at various organisations in the past I fully agree that this certainly appears to be a classic moment where bean-counters tend to reflexively take the conservative option ("don't spend the $$s if you're not 100% sure the market's already there"). Whereas the more visionary business approach is "you've got to spend the $$s to increase your market share and attract new customers in the first place". Look at the success of M4/3 - this was a bold step for Panny and Oly which would have taken a fair bit of R&D dough (not to mention marketing dollars), but seems to have paid off and carved out a new niche for both of them in the industry and bought their products to a whole new market segment.

Let's hope that if the A77 is a success, along with the rumoured FF cameras for 2012, this will encourage Sony to start getting serious about the enthusiast / prosumer / professional end of the market.

instead of the A-Mount?? Problem with this is, if you don't have the lenses you don't sell the cameras or cheaper lenses either.
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Dave

dlkeller said:

instead of the A-Mount?? Problem with this is, if you don't have the lenses you don't sell the cameras or cheaper lenses either.
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Dave

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Your post is in response to Walt, but I don't see what the connection is. No one mentioned the NEX. Besides, the NEX system was designed by Sony for people who wanted to move up from a compact P&S, but didn't want the weight/size of a DSLR.

You are correct, I probably should have placed it in line with origional responses to the OP. My mistake, I had just read Walts response and had the thought.

Judging from a great many posts on this forum it appears to me that NEX has become very my a competing system to the A-Mount line. I know it is a bit far fetched and my statement was largely (but not totally) tongue in cheek that Sony is more interested in advancing NEX than developing lenses that would help insure success of the A-Mount system. Just food for thought as all the conjectures on the issue.

Whatever the reason I think we can agree with the concept that the slow development/release of such lenses by Sony does stand in the way of the advancement of Sony in the DSLR field. Even if Sony made no profit on that particular lens it's mear presence in the Sony lens lineup would be valuable in helping Sony sales.
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Dave

Why should they afraid as this lens is built on order? The only reason is that they haven't release the FF body for it yet. Also the earthquake and Thailand flood force them to prioritize. There is no benefit in launching the lens if you don't have enough resource to build it.

WaltKnapp said:

HopeSpringsEternal said:

Hi Walt,

What I meant was that the bean counters don't have confidence in sales of an expensive 500mm and in general Sony is not really placing any big bets on optics. They are very cautious and like you said, they are more interested in the low-end of the consumer market.

Click to expand...

The bean counters are probably the worst to be in control. Not photographers, not making decisions for improving photography. Yes they are needed, but the better companies allow them to be only part of the decision, not all of it.

Click to expand...

But this is a large company that needs profits, and the best selling DSLRs are entry level models. They might have higher profit margins with pro-oriented gear, but I think they make much more profit off low end models, simply because they sell so much more of them.

And I think photographers are part of their decision making process. Otherwise, we wouldn't see a mockup of that lens at all, because few photographers will be willing to spend that much money, so the R & D cost might not be justified in the minds of the bean counters.

The answer seems simple to me. How many of you are actaully going to shell out the money for one of these lens? The new Canon 500mm is now selling for $10,500. If and when, Sony actually moves on this project, it will certainly be in that general price range. Now...I ask again......How many of you are going to purchase one of these lens?

dlkeller said:

Judging from a great many posts on this forum it appears to me that NEX has become very my a competing system to the A-Mount line. I know it is a bit far fetched and my statement was largely (but not totally) tongue in cheek that Sony is more interested in advancing NEX than developing lenses that would help insure success of the A-Mount system. Just food for thought as all the conjectures on the issue.

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I would agree that it appears that Sony is far more comfortable and more interested in advancing NEX than A mount.

I'm thinking it's to the extent we will see more and more neglect of A mount and pulling back of product. (Like the twin macro flash they just pulled)

Look at the magazine advertisements for Canon. They feature great wildlife shots with a lens and on a safari that few of us can afford, yet they sell basic level cameras because people see them and say "This is what my camera can do!!"

The Sony 500mm could let Sony say that too and result in camera sales and profits which would far outweigh development costs of the lens--even if only a few of us buy it and it never makes a profit.
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Dave

dlkeller said:

Look at the magazine advertisements for Canon. They feature great wildlife shots with a lens and on a safari that few of us can afford, yet they sell basic level cameras because people see them and say "This is what my camera can do!!"

The Sony 500mm could let Sony say that too and result in camera sales and profits which would far outweigh development costs of the lens--even if only a few of us buy it and it never makes a profit.

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Yes, Sony could do this, but they now at times do that with the 70-400G and I'm not sure how much more benefit the 500 would give over that as the 70-400G can do a lot and is big enough to have the big lens factor in shots of it.

The 500 has always seemed like "bait" for selling cheaper camera stuff for Sony. Even if we could not afford it, some of us would like to have one as a real working lens and not a advertizing prop. It's sad no one gets to use it. I don't see being able to afford one, btw, unless they end up cheap used on ebay or such.

I dont think Sony cares about old systems. Why carry a big bag with multiple lenses, now your hip case handles camera +2 lenses APS sensor!

They sure made a fool of me!! I bought @700 w/bunch of lenses. Do not get me wrong, I love my @700. It is a great photographic tool. The lens availability was never as bad as spread on this blog. Very few people can afford 500mm lens. Now days people dont no how to use manuel setting cameraes.

HopeSpringsEternal said:

What I meant was that the bean counters don't have confidence in sales of an expensive 500mm and in general Sony is not really placing any big bets on optics. They are very cautious and like you said, they are more interested in the low-end of the consumer market.

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If so, why did they discontinue the 500m f8 reflex? An inexpensive 500mm with great portability advantages (small and light) and what's more the only autofocusing catadioptric lens in captivity.

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Chris Malcolm

Chris Malcolm said:

HopeSpringsEternal said:

What I meant was that the bean counters don't have confidence in sales of an expensive 500mm and in general Sony is not really placing any big bets on optics. They are very cautious and like you said, they are more interested in the low-end of the consumer market.

Click to expand...

If so, why did they discontinue the 500m f8 reflex? An inexpensive 500mm with great portability advantages (small and light) and what's more the only autofocusing catadioptric lens in captivity.

--
Chris Malcolm

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I see two possible reasons -

The first is typical Sony: Only offer one 500mm because those who would have bought the 500 f/8 will instead have to buy the 500 f/4 - the same logic that caused them to not offer a ring flash (and remove the ring flash socket from the macro flash controller) so people would buy their ring light instead. Logic in both cases is really bad but sounds like a decision some manager in la-la land might make.

The second is that maybe they had to pay KM a fee for each 500 f/8 produced? Don't know if that is the case.

Otherwise it, actually both 500 f/8 and ring flash, were really stupid decisions since they were unique products that Sony could have used in their marketing campaigns (oh yeah, what a-mount marketing campaigns?)

tom