Canon 580EX II speedlite: correct exposure

I purchased a Canon 580EX II Speedlite on Saturday, and to be honest I ain't too pleased with it given its high price. I really don't think Canon know how to do flash.

Anyway, the thing that really worries/surprises/irritates me the most is the apparant 1-stop under-exposure across all exposure modes.

I am wondering, do I have a dud copy of the flashgun or is this how the gun is supposed to work by design?

I set my camera up in Manual exposure mode at settings of 1/125, f5.6, ISO200 and was testing indoors during the evening. When I compared shots with my Metz flashgun, I found that the Metz shots were nice and bright/well exposed but the Canon Speedlite always seemed to render an image at around middle grey i.e. around 126 on a histogram. The difference between the Metz shots and those of Canon was around 1 to 1.3 EV. I also have access to other brand's guns (Olympus, Sony) and they too render a brigter image.

So is this new fangled Canon E-TTL/E-TTL II supposed to work that way? Or am I in need of a firmware update or new gun?

Advise and experiences appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

The 580EXII is a wonderful flash. It is complex and there is a learning curve....a big one...in order to master its many abilities. Get Syl Arena's book "Speedliting", watch his videos over at B&H, learn your Speedlite, and you'll love it. Syl also has videos that are superb at Kelby Training.

Sal 18

Sal18 said:

The 580EXII is a wonderful flash. It is complex and there is a learning curve....a big one...in order to master its many abilities. Get Syl Arena's book "Speedliting", watch his videos over at B&H, learn your Speedlite, and you'll love it. Syl also has videos that are superb at Kelby Training.

Sal 18

Click to expand...

I have got Syl's brilliant book. But it certainly don't help much re my original post (and there are a number of things with this flash that I find irritating given it's price; I won't go into those gripes now as I wanna focus on this exposure issue).

Regards,

The correct title is "Speedliter's Handbook".

Sal

plevyadophy said:

I purchased a Canon 580EX II Speedlite on Saturday, and to be honest I ain't too pleased with it given its high price. I really don't think Canon know how to do flash.

Anyway, the thing that really worries/surprises/irritates me the most is the apparant 1-stop under-exposure across all exposure modes.

I am wondering, do I have a dud copy of the flashgun or is this how the gun is supposed to work by design?

I set my camera up in Manual exposure mode at settings of 1/125, f5.6, ISO200 and was testing indoors during the evening. When I compared shots with my Metz flashgun, I found that the Metz shots were nice and bright/well exposed but the Canon Speedlite always seemed to render an image at around middle grey i.e. around 126 on a histogram. The difference between the Metz shots and those of Canon was around 1 to 1.3 EV. I also have access to other brand's guns (Olympus, Sony) and they too render a brigter image.

So is this new fangled Canon E-TTL/E-TTL II supposed to work that way? Or am I in need of a firmware update or new gun?

Advise and experiences appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

Click to expand...

That is normal for that flash. You will have to learn to adjust for it.

--
There is nothing worse than a sharp image of a fuzzy concept.

Ansel Adams

I have a pair of 580 EXII's. I find that using the flash in bounce mode with a bracket and Demb flipit, I have to dial in +2/3 to 1 stop FEC to get proper exposires.

The user interface is completely nonintuitive when using a pair of flashes.
--
Jim
http://www.pbase.com/jcassatt

Jim Cassatt said:

I have a pair of 580 EXII's. I find that using the flash in bounce mode with a bracket and Demb flipit, I have to dial in +2/3 to 1 stop FEC to get proper exposires.

The user interface is completely nonintuitive when using a pair of flashes.
--
Jim
http://www.pbase.com/jcassatt

Click to expand...

Thanks for the reply.

Yeah, I can well understand the need for FEC when using bounce flash. However, my concern is that I was testing the flashguns (Canon 580EX II -v- others) unmodified (i.e. no flash accessories) and with the flash head facing straight ahead. Doing this I noticed this gross under-exposure by the Canon gun. Is that REALLY how it is supposed to work; do Canon really think that is the way a flash gun should expose?

Thanks in advance.

plevyadophy said:

Jim Cassatt said:

I have a pair of 580 EXII's. I find that using the flash in bounce mode with a bracket and Demb flipit, I have to dial in +2/3 to 1 stop FEC to get proper exposires.

The user interface is completely nonintuitive when using a pair of flashes.
--
Jim
http://www.pbase.com/jcassatt

Click to expand...

Thanks for the reply.

Yeah, I can well understand the need for FEC when using bounce flash. However, my concern is that I was testing the flashguns (Canon 580EX II -v- others) unmodified (i.e. no flash accessories) and with the flash head facing straight ahead. Doing this I noticed this gross under-exposure by the Canon gun. Is that REALLY how it is supposed to work; do Canon really think that is the way a flash gun should expose?

Thanks in advance.

Click to expand...

Mine do the same thing. I can't answer your questions about what Canon thinks about it. You will have to take it up with them. I just got adapted and got used to it.
--
There is nothing worse than a sharp image of a fuzzy concept.

Ansel Adams

I have been on quite a few threads regarding this subject. Canon apparently is very protective of the highlights particularly with the 5D2. I don't know about that. Might be legit. I got that from one person who spoke to a Canon technician and was told that.

I spoke to customer service about back/front focus a while ago. One person told me not to MA as it was a temporary fix and to send it in. Another one asked me why I was not using MA. Canon service is great but like any big corporation sometimes the left hand does not know what the right hand is doing.

--
There is nothing worse than a sharp image of a fuzzy concept.

Ansel Adams

plevyadophy said:

I purchased a Canon 580EX II Speedlite on Saturday, and to be honest I ain't too pleased with it given its high price. I really don't think Canon know how to do flash.

Anyway, the thing that really worries/surprises/irritates me the most is the apparant 1-stop under-exposure across all exposure modes.

I am wondering, do I have a dud copy of the flashgun or is this how the gun is supposed to work by design?

I set my camera up in Manual exposure mode at settings of 1/125, f5.6, ISO200 and was testing indoors during the evening. When I compared shots with my Metz flashgun, I found that the Metz shots were nice and bright/well exposed but the Canon Speedlite always seemed to render an image at around middle grey i.e. around 126 on a histogram. The difference between the Metz shots and those of Canon was around 1 to 1.3 EV. I also have access to other brand's guns (Olympus, Sony) and they too render a brigter image.

So is this new fangled Canon E-TTL/E-TTL II supposed to work that way? Or am I in need of a firmware update or new gun?

Advise and experiences appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

Click to expand...

Thanks everyone for your input.

I went off again in search for an answer, and this time used a different search query and I think i came up trumps; with the difinitive answers.

I once read somewhere where someone said that the difference between Nikkon and Canon is that Nikokn gear is designed by photo enthusiasts whilst Canon stuff is designed by engineers. Well, if this flash is any thing to go by it certainly seems true that, at least as far as flash is concerned, far too many engineers and far too few photographers have a say.

The flashgun and it's E-TTL seem over fiddly and counter-intuitive. Of all the on-camera flash systems I have used/owned (and I have Sony, Olympus, Metz and Canon beside my now as I type) the Canon one is by far the worst (fiddly, poor menu, counter-intiuitive). Never before have I had to go off in search of techie info so as to become a nerd simply to use a flashgun. All the other systems were easy: I simply took them out of the box, briefly read the instruction manual, plonked them on their respective cameras, aimed, fired and the results and behaviour I got back were as a I expected.

Looking at the nerdie info I have just found (which I will share with you all in a moment) it seems to me that the E-TTL system is daft over engineering and an example of someone trying to be too clever by half.

It does turn out, according to one of the nerdie bits of info that I found, that the +1-stop FEC requirement is a standard setting required for these flashguns (a woeful waste in my opinion; you have just 3 stops of adjustment, and you have to waste 1 stop just to get correct exposure whilst with other flashguns you can use all your FEC for creative purposes solely)

And don't get me started on Canon's dumb implementation of Auto/Thyristor flash mode on the 580EX II!!! Grrrrrr!!!

Anyway, enough griping and let me share some info with you all; after all that's what this site should be all about, right? )

Here you are:

http://dpanswers.com/content/canon_flash.php#modes

and

http://www.dlcphotography.net/ETTL/ETTL.htm

and

http://super.nova.org/DPR/Canon/TTL/

and the reference book length info at

http://photonotes.org/articles/eos-flash/

Warm regards,

And a Happy New Year to you all.

.

Here is a whole bunch more reading for you.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1032&message=40071147

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1032&message=40196371

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1025&message=39489595

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1032&message=40171535

--
There is nothing worse than a sharp image of a fuzzy concept.

Ansel Adams

Zee Char said:

Here is a whole bunch more reading for you.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1032&message=40071147

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1032&message=40196371

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1025&message=39489595

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1032&message=40171535

--
There is nothing worse than a sharp image of a fuzzy concept.

Ansel Adams

Click to expand...

Thanks dude,

but I think I have had enough reading on something I shouldn't have to read that much about at all in the first place! )

I really do find the Canon flash system absurd. Based on my reading (those links I provided above), I conducted another experiment. This time I framed a scene, shot the first one setting the camera to Auto AF mode (i.e. cam decides which, and how many, of the 45 AF point to use) and then took a second shot (keeping the framing the same) but this time used only the central AF point. To my horror the two images were vastly different. The first shot, beause the majority of the AF points happend to focus on a dark item that was nearer to me than the rest of the scene, produced a much brighter image. That's plain rubbish!! None of my other flash systems behave in that ridiculously inconsistent way; they meter the entire scene and give the same exposure irrespective of what focus mode I use or what I happen to focus on in the scene. For the love of God I don't see why Canon have llinked exposure with focus (I wouldn't mind such a linkage, but only if I explicitly choose it for some reason).

As I write, I am minded to sell the damn thing and stick to using my Metz gun in Manual Mode, or Auto (Thyristor) Mode with FEC, for consistent and sensible exposure and ways of working.

Regards,

Zee Char said:

Here is a whole bunch more reading for you.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1032&message=40071147

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1032&message=40196371

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1025&message=39489595

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1032&message=40171535

--
There is nothing worse than a sharp image of a fuzzy concept.

Ansel Adams

Click to expand...

OK I just couldn't resist!!! )

I did in the end read all those threads! )

My conclusion to be blunt is that the Canon ETTL flash system is a pile of sh!t.

I don't for one minute buy all that bull posted by some that the gripes coming from people about the Canon flash system is because they haven't bothered to "learn the system" and are just blaming the equipment for human error.

Yes one has to trial new/different equipment to get to grips with the little quirks different devices have but to me there is just WAAAAAY too many things/variables to learn with the Canon flash system.

It never ceases to amaze me how some people's brains/reasoning turns to mush as soon as they pick up camera equipment. Take for example the Canon ETTL apologists and their silly nonsense about getting "to know the sytem". Welll, many of us have used microwave ovens and driven cars and we expect those items to work in a similar way to other items of the same kind. Would they/we accept the same silly nonsense arguments about "getting to understand the system" if we bought a microwave or car and then had to spend hours in internet forums to work out how to use it because it had some bloody idiotic "system" that we had to learn? I doubt it very much.

Plain and simply, to me the Canon flash logic is a pile of sh!t (too many variables, too much fiddling, too much to consider rather than getting on with the business of taking the shot).

I am also using the Metz 54 MZ-4i flash. It's absolutely brilliant. The only downsides to it are: the AF assist beam works only with the central cluster of AF points; it doesn't support wireless flash with the Canon system; the secondary reflector's power can't be controlled from the flash menu.

I did notice your issues with the newer 58 AF2 regarding shooting in Auto/Thyristor Mode whilst also using FEC. The Metz 54 flash that I use doesn't have that problem. FEC works fine (well it is working fine on a 1D (I haven't tried it on any of the later Mark II, III, IV, and X bodies)).

Thanks for your informative posts.

Regards,

plevyadophy said:

Zee Char said:

Here is a whole bunch more reading for you.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1032&message=40071147

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1032&message=40196371

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1025&message=39489595

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1032&message=40171535

--
There is nothing worse than a sharp image of a fuzzy concept.

Ansel Adams

Click to expand...

Thanks dude,

but I think I have had enough reading on something I shouldn't have to read that much about at all in the first place! )

I really do find the Canon flash system absurd. Based on my reading (those links I provided above), I conducted another experiment. This time I framed a scene, shot the first one setting the camera to Auto AF mode (i.e. cam decides which, and how many, of the 45 AF point to use) and then took a second shot (keeping the framing the same) but this time used only the central AF point. To my horror the two images were vastly different. The first shot, beause the majority of the AF points happend to focus on a dark item that was nearer to me than the rest of the scene, produced a much brighter image. That's plain rubbish!! None of my other flash systems behave in that ridiculously inconsistent way; they meter the entire scene and give the same exposure irrespective of what focus mode I use or what I happen to focus on in the scene. For the love of God I don't see why Canon have llinked exposure with focus (I wouldn't mind such a linkage, but only if I explicitly choose it for some reason).

As I write, I am minded to sell the damn thing and stick to using my Metz gun in Manual Mode, or Auto (Thyristor) Mode with FEC, for consistent and sensible exposure and ways of working.

Regards,

Click to expand...

ETTL II is not focus point linked. Watch the 3rd video - ETTL II metering.

http://cpn.canon-europe.com/content/education/masterclass/canon_flash.do

Camera metering modes have bearing on flash exposure either. You have 3 choices. Evaluative or average which you can only change through your in camera menus (if you have that feature) or use FEL which turns it into a spot meter.

--
There is nothing worse than a sharp image of a fuzzy concept.

Ansel Adams

plevyadophy said:

Zee Char said:

Here is a whole bunch more reading for you.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1032&message=40071147

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1032&message=40196371

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1025&message=39489595

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1032&message=40171535

--
There is nothing worse than a sharp image of a fuzzy concept.

Ansel Adams

Click to expand...

OK I just couldn't resist!!! )

I did in the end read all those threads! )

My conclusion to be blunt is that the Canon ETTL flash system is a pile of sh!t.

I don't for one minute buy all that bull posted by some that the gripes coming from people about the Canon flash system is because they haven't bothered to "learn the system" and are just blaming the equipment for human error.

Yes one has to trial new/different equipment to get to grips with the little quirks different devices have but to me there is just WAAAAAY too many things/variables to learn with the Canon flash system.

It never ceases to amaze me how some people's brains/reasoning turns to mush as soon as they pick up camera equipment. Take for example the Canon ETTL apologists and their silly nonsense about getting "to know the sytem". Welll, many of us have used microwave ovens and driven cars and we expect those items to work in a similar way to other items of the same kind. Would they/we accept the same silly nonsense arguments about "getting to understand the system" if we bought a microwave or car and then had to spend hours in internet forums to work out how to use it because it had some bloody idiotic "system" that we had to learn? I doubt it very much.

Plain and simply, to me the Canon flash logic is a pile of sh!t (too many variables, too much fiddling, too much to consider rather than getting on with the business of taking the shot).

I am also using the Metz 54 MZ-4i flash. It's absolutely brilliant. The only downsides to it are: the AF assist beam works only with the central cluster of AF points; it doesn't support wireless flash with the Canon system; the secondary reflector's power can't be controlled from the flash menu.

I did notice your issues with the newer 58 AF2 regarding shooting in Auto/Thyristor Mode whilst also using FEC. The Metz 54 flash that I use doesn't have that problem. FEC works fine (well it is working fine on a 1D (I haven't tried it on any of the later Mark II, III, IV, and X bodies)).

Thanks for your informative posts.

Regards,

Click to expand...

I found out something interesting about my Metz. This was when I was using it in auto mode on very high ISO's and FEC adjusted either + or -. When I got the audible warning beep telling me the camera settings were outside the flash parameters and there would be an overexposure the FEC settings would lock up on the camera and flash. After a few weeks of hunting for the answer I contacted Metz support in the USA. They told me Auto mode was never designed to be used with FEC.

In my manual it talks about auto mode in the first paragraph. In the second paragraph they talk about a manual adjustment. They mean manual mode. Third paragraph they talk about FEC while in ETTL.



This page (124) is incorrect. It talks about FEC and the illustration shows it in A mode



Even though you can adjust it and it does make a change they never intended that.

--
There is nothing worse than a sharp image of a fuzzy concept.

Ansel Adams

Sounds like pouring yourself a glass of water would be difficult!

Canon speed lites are easy to master any child could do it! Just give yourself some time, read & reread the manual. Yes the flash does come with a manual. Also read the camera manual as it contains additional information regarding the use of flash and settings.

Try not to spill anything on yourself

Agree, Canon allows a lot of flexibility but you don't need to use all of it. - IF you want the dominant light to be derived from the flash use the camera in manual mode, select camera metering mode, then set flash compensation to the dominant brightness of the scene - e.g. if you're taking a photo in snow set the FEC to +1.5 or +2. If the scene has a narrow dynmaic range, you treat the FEC as you would camera EC in order to expose to the right. If you're not sure, then chimp until you know by looking....
The extra stuff with spot metering requires more attention to scene DR.

-Mark
--
http://www.pbase.com/markland

plevyadophy said:

Zee Char said:

Here is a whole bunch more reading for you.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1032&message=40071147

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1032&message=40196371

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1025&message=39489595

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1032&message=40171535

--
There is nothing worse than a sharp image of a fuzzy concept.

Ansel Adams

Click to expand...

OK I just couldn't resist!!! )

I did in the end read all those threads! )

My conclusion to be blunt is that the Canon ETTL flash system is a pile of sh!t.

I don't for one minute buy all that bull posted by some that the gripes coming from people about the Canon flash system is because they haven't bothered to "learn the system" and are just blaming the equipment for human error.

Yes one has to trial new/different equipment to get to grips with the little quirks different devices have but to me there is just WAAAAAY too many things/variables to learn with the Canon flash system.

It never ceases to amaze me how some people's brains/reasoning turns to mush as soon as they pick up camera equipment. Take for example the Canon ETTL apologists and their silly nonsense about getting "to know the sytem". Welll, many of us have used microwave ovens and driven cars and we expect those items to work in a similar way to other items of the same kind. Would they/we accept the same silly nonsense arguments about "getting to understand the system" if we bought a microwave or car and then had to spend hours in internet forums to work out how to use it because it had some bloody idiotic "system" that we had to learn? I doubt it very much.

Plain and simply, to me the Canon flash logic is a pile of sh!t (too many variables, too much fiddling, too much to consider rather than getting on with the business of taking the shot).

I am also using the Metz 54 MZ-4i flash. It's absolutely brilliant. The only downsides to it are: the AF assist beam works only with the central cluster of AF points; it doesn't support wireless flash with the Canon system; the secondary reflector's power can't be controlled from the flash menu.

I did notice your issues with the newer 58 AF2 regarding shooting in Auto/Thyristor Mode whilst also using FEC. The Metz 54 flash that I use doesn't have that problem. FEC works fine (well it is working fine on a 1D (I haven't tried it on any of the later Mark II, III, IV, and X bodies)).

Thanks for your informative posts.

Regards,

Click to expand...

I own 4 580 EXII and I use them professionally and I can honestly say that I love them and have very littlle to gripe about. I have also used Nikon and I actually prefer the Canon.

Not sure what problem you have but you should not be so bold to call down those of us who are happy with the equipment. They are excellent speedlite's but if you don't like them don't use them.

I will continue to use them and would buy them again

Trevor Sowers said:

Not sure what problem you have but you should not be so bold to call down those of us who are happy with the equipment. They are excellent speedlite's but if you don't like them don't use them.

I will continue to use them and would buy them again

Click to expand...

No, no Trevor...You're seeing it all wrong.

"Canon ETTL flash system is a pile of sh!t", the people writing about how to correctly use it are "nerdies" and what is really needed is a "simple system" where you can simply take it out of the box, briefly read the instruction manual, plonked them on our respective cameras, aim, fire and have the exact results we individually expected (... all of us...).

...and since stating such obvious facts attracts a plethora of help, all is good...

PK

--
“Loose praise may feed my ego but constructive criticism advances my skills”
************************************************************
-------------------------------------------------
http://www.pbase.com/photokhan
(PBase Supporter)

plevyadophy said:

None of my other flash systems behave in that ridiculously inconsistent way; they meter the entire scene and give the same exposure irrespective of what focus mode I use or what I happen to focus on in the scene.

Click to expand...

To get the same operation with Canon just use the camera custom function to use Average metering with flash, instead of Evaluative metering!
--
Its RKM