Another Reason The G1X Will Kill The X10

...besides the orb issue, since it's a Canon, we're guaranteed that we can walk into a camera dealer and can demo the thing. In the case of Fuji, I've asked many, many times about stocking dealers with demo cams, but apparently, all dealers are only stocking to sell. Fuji Germany was so arrogant about this, that they simply sent me the promo video link and said that it was the demo.

I'm really happy that Canon entered this segment and entered using a formula that is such a far leap beyond the others- a large sensor and pretty much universal availability.

I think companies are underestimating the power of being able to go to a dealer and touch it, whether it be an independent shop or a big box.

If the Canon had a fast lens like the Fuji and cost $200 less like the Fuji you might have a point.

If Fuji can mitigate the orbs issue to a significant degree IF .......the X10 will be a superb camera with its own strengths.
Until we see the firmware update we will not know.

The other question about the Canon is the doubts about the lens QC or lens design.
We do not know enough yet....

jimr said:

If the Canon had a fast lens like the Fuji and cost $200 less like the Fuji you might have a point.

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The Canon sensor is six times larger than the Fuji sensor. How are you going to design a lens that covers that sensor, is as fast as the X10 lens, AND come in $200 cheaper?!? I know that the slower lens isn't that popular, but you at least have to live in reality. This lens compares favorably to the kit lens on the APS-C SLR line, and it's a lot smaller. That's an achievement in and of itself.

Canon does have a fast lens, along with a sensor many times larger than the x10's sensor, which makes up for the stop difference. Don't forget that the aperture is still relative to the sensor, so the Canon's aperture is still larger than the Fuji at full wide, then there's the greater light-gathering capacity of the larger sensor, true higher dynamic range, lower noise, no orbs...

...and a company not afraid to allow demos.

The f2.8 on the huge Canon sensor is way more meaningful than the F2.0 on a 2/3 chip.

As far as the price goes, The X10 is targeted, with the rest of the x-series, to command higher retail prices due to Fuji making it about perceived eliteness of the product. So the street prices of the Canon will be startlingly close to the X10 in some time, as well as due to higher production numbers.

The thing is the X10 was supposed to be the game changer for the prosumer class, but then leave it to canon to stuff a near APS-c sized sensor in one.

jimr said:

If the Canon had a fast lens like the Fuji and cost $200 less like the Fuji you might have a point.

If Fuji can mitigate the orbs issue to a significant degree IF .......the X10 will be a superb camera with its own strengths.
Until we see rather firmware update we will not know.
The other question about the Canon is the doubts about the lens QC or design.
We do not know enough yet....

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sarlo100 said:

jimr said:

If the Canon had a fast lens like the Fuji and cost $200 less like the Fuji you might have a point.

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The Canon sensor is six times larger than the Fuji sensor. How are you going to design a lens that covers that sensor, is as fast as the X10 lens, AND come in $200 cheaper.

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True! Those comments are correct. You cannot.

What is equally true is that the Fuji's faster lens alows you to use lower ISOs at the same EV negating much of the sensor size advantage.
That is reality as well...

What we do not know is how good the Canon lens is. Are we seeing the same poor QC issues that dogged the Canon S100 or do we have lens design issues or none of the above? We don't know.

I know that the slower lens isn't that popular, but you at least have to live in reality. This lens compares favorably to the kit lens on the APS-C SLR line, and it's a lot smaller. That's an achievement in and of itself.

snake_b said:

As far as the price goes, The X10 is targeted, with the rest of the x-series, to command higher retail prices due to Fuji making it about perceived eliteness of the product. So the street prices of the Canon will be startlingly close to the X10 in some time, as well as due to higher production numbers.

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So you are saying the $200 price difference will narrow very significantly?

If that is what you are saying...you and I do not know and time will tell...BUT I strongly doubt it....

Walk into B&H and you can handle the X10 all you want.

I did and was very impressed with its design and handling. It's not just Fuji's X label but the camera's design. The big question is how effective will the firmware update be.
Time will tell.
Have you handled it?

Yes, Fuji plays a lot on perceived exclusivity. Hell, look at the black edition of the X100, saying it's a "limited edition", but of 10,000 units? Come on. Canon will be in big box stores, as well as local dealers, plus for demo. I'm guessing that Fuji is not keen on demos to give an air of exclusivity to the product. Come Christmas, or periodic blowouts, we'll see the Canon's price make it ready to move. Fuji's x-series, on the other hand, is something they want in specific camera stores and they want prices kept high. The problem is, I can't find any store that will let me demo one. I was in Frankfurt last week, where there are awesome cam shops with great prices, but of course, ask for a demo on any cam, no problem. Asked about the x10, sorry, we only have the ones to sell for customers and the displays are not for demo purposes.

It's really no contest and I've seen the above comment with the "DUR, WE CAN SHOOT AT LOWER ISO LEVELS WITH THE X10!". It's simply no comparison with the light gathering ability on the G1X. On top of that, the large sensor reward is that there will be better high ISO handling. How about you tell someone on a K5 or a D3 that you can shoot better at high ISO if they are on an f2.8, while they are going into 5 digit ISO levels with zero penalty? It looks like here there is so far little penalty into the four digits, but not yet known how far.

Again, this is a game changer and the game changer the X10 promised to be and fell right on its face.

jimr said:

snake_b said:

As far as the price goes, The X10 is targeted, with the rest of the x-series, to command higher retail prices due to Fuji making it about perceived eliteness of the product. So the street prices of the Canon will be startlingly close to the X10 in some time, as well as due to higher production numbers.

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So you are saying the $200 price difference will narrow very significantly?

If that is what you are saying...you and I do not know and time will tell...BUT I strongly doubt it....

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snake_b said:

snake_b wrote:

On top of that, the large sensor reward is that there will be better high ISO > handling. How about you tell someone on a K5 or a D3 that you can shoot better at > high ISO if they are on an f2.8, while they are going into 5 digit ISO levels with zero .penalty? It looks like here there is so far little penalty into the four digits, but not yet > known how far.

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5 digits ISO with zero penalty.
Quite a claim. Quite a statement.

Now about that lens QC or design or ???? We shall see...Time will tell. S100 issues or not...We shall see.

If you're questioning that, then you might not be familiar with the D3S, for instance. Go to a shop and try it out. You'll find that it will likely look so good, that it will require none to minimal touch up in the noise area. Perhaps it's an advantage of fullframe and "only" 12 MP- they are among the highest quality megapixels available.

And again, hanging on your QC claim. Canon had an issue with the s100, but then you're hanging by a thread to slam canon, as if it's been a rash of problems. That's a pathetic one right there. Especially since it's not like Fuji hasn't had several YEARS worth of cameras with decentered lenses, with no sign of them resolving it, x100 apertures and bad firmware, dust in the lenses, x10 firmware, orbs, and dust in the lenses, and so on.

jimr said:

snake_b wrote:

On top of that, the large sensor reward is that there will be better high ISO handling. How about you tell someone on a K5 or a D3 that you can shoot better at high ISO if they are on an f2.8, while they are going into 5 digit ISO levels with zero penalty? It looks like here there is so far little penalty into the four digits, but not yet known how far.

5 digits ISO with zero penalty.
Quite a claim. Quite a statement.

Now about that lens QC or design or ???? We shall see...Time will tell. S100 issues or not...We shall see.

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I am not here to defend Fuji. I do think that Canon has overpriced the camera. Yes. Many pre-orders. But that is a no risk no money down easily cancellable till late March non commitment situation. Let's see when real orders with cash to be paid now time comes...
Time will tell.

Defending Canon's QC by pointing to another company is not an answer..just a diversion..
This may turn out to be a wonderful $699 camera...but we don't know yet...

Incorrect, I didn't divert. You're being extremely selective, as I spoke of the S100's lens issue, which has been rectified. You're being completely dishonest with your approach and it's in the writing above, with respect to there not being a diversion tactic. It is 100% true that Canon had a lens issue on the S100, but you treat it as a trend that's been running long, when the IRONIC part (don't read that as diversion) is that Fuji has had this problem for years and they don't recall cameras like Canon did.

Again, your argument is hanging by a thread. Simply put, the x10 promised to elevate the prosumer class and the early adopters lost because they're not even close, it's Canon that changed the game and they are so far ahead of the rest of the class.

jimr said:

I am not here to defend Fuji. I do think that Canon has overpriced the camera. Yes. Many pre-orders. But that is a no risk no money down easily cancellable till late March non commitment situation. Let's see when real orders with cash to be paid now time comes...
Time will tell.

Defending Canon's QC by pointing to another company is not an answer..just a diversion..
This may turn out to be a wonderful $699 camera...but we don't know yet...

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The never resolved Canon E 18 lens error that went on for years...with many Canon cameras over a long time...

How can we possibly know the outcome at this point. All we have are a few shots and hands-ons with preproduction models. It is pure speculation at this point as to how well the G1X will perform as a camera or a product.

I will say a couple things though. First, I wouldn't necessarily bank on them being carried in large numbers in big-box stores here in the US. Best Buy is about the last one left that would still carry a camera like the G1X and they are increasingly moving away from niche products like that in their stores. Best Buy has changed a lot in the last year and will likely change even more in the coming year. By continuing to sell the G12, Canon is clearly saying the G1X is a niche product. Don't expect stores to carry the G12 and G1X. There is only so much shelf space.

Also, as stated above, this will really come down to Fuji's imminent firmware update. If it does sufficiently mitigate the orbs, then the Fuji will be a best in class level camera. Even with orbs, the X10 is probably the best in its class (remember, G1X is not out yet and arguably a different class).

So, will Canon sell more? Of course, it's Canon. They are mainstream, they will always sell more. Who cares? Do you get a percentage of each sale or something? Aside from that and being able to say your team won, I don't see why sales matter.

Now, if the question is which will end up being the better camera, I don't think there is ever really an answer to that. Both will have strong points and weaknesses, and it will be up to the individual what is most important to them, and therefore the better camera for them.

Sadly QC issues that some/many companies ignore are not uncommon.
Fuji has them. Canon has them.

I remember being shocked at Canon's never dealing with the E18 widespread lens issue/problem after it went on through so many different models for so long a time. Really disappointing.

Fuji has not handled some issues with older cameras as well. IF they come up with an effective orb issue answer (not perfect..but at least very significantly improved) it will only be because of consumer pressure. How effective it will or will not be is yet to be seen.

Cashmonee said:

How can we possibly know the outcome at this point. All we have are a few shots and hands-ons with preproduction models. It is pure speculation at this point as to how well the G1X will perform as a camera or a product.

I will say a couple things though. First, I wouldn't necessarily bank on them being carried in large numbers in big-box stores here in the US. Best Buy is about the last one left that would still carry a camera like the G1X and they are increasingly moving away from niche products like that in their stores. Best Buy has changed a lot in the last year and will likely change even more in the coming year. By continuing to sell the G12, Canon is clearly saying the G1X is a niche product. Don't expect stores to carry the G12 and G1X. There is only so much shelf space.

Also, as stated above, this will really come down to Fuji's imminent firmware update. If it does sufficiently mitigate the orbs, then the Fuji will be a best in class level camera. Even with orbs, the X10 is probably the best in its class (remember, G1X is not out yet and arguably a different class).

So, will Canon sell more? Of course, it's Canon. They are mainstream, they will always sell more. Who cares? Do you get a percentage of each sale or something? Aside from that and being able to say your team won, I don't see why sales matter.

Now, if the question is which will end up being the better camera, I don't think there is ever really an answer to that. Both will have strong points and weaknesses, and it will up to the individual what is most important to them.

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All brands have their issues. The Fuji X100 cost over $1000 and the sticky blades have been a real issue with many of the cameras. Might even be a ticking time bomb for many more of them. It happens.

Agreed.

The rush to get a product to the marketplace before a competitor shows up is not helping things.
The days when a Nikon F series existed for years and was a refined product...
Today models last how long in the marketplace???
The discussion about a G2X has started already on this forum!

mcshan said:

All brands have their issues. The Fuji X100 cost over $1000 and the sticky blades have been a real issue with many of the cameras. Might even be a ticking time bomb for many more of them. It happens.

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snake_b said:

Canon does have a fast lens,

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f/5.8 at 112mm is not fast.

Agreed. I have had some camera regret as something seemingly better came out two months later. Part of the fun of trying new stuff. I haven't seen the X10 yet and maybe will get to see it and the new Canon on the same night I am in the Boston area and Hunts normally has most products to handle. I can't imagine loving cameras while living far from big cities. That must involve a lot of faith buying regarding reviews and forum conversations.

Had relatives in Newton Highlands. Love Boston.
B&H is my camera toy store!

mcshan said:

Agreed. I have had some camera regret as something seemingly better came out two months later. Part of the fun of trying new stuff. I haven't seen the X10 yet and maybe will get to see it and the new Canon on the same night I am in the Boston area and Hunts normally has most products to handle. I can't imagine loving cameras while living far from big cities. That must involve a lot of faith buying regarding reviews and forum conversations.

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