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M10 soon ?
- Thread starter bepicture
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Kodak sold that business (Now known as Truesense Imaging) in Nov 2011:
http://www.kodak.com/ek/US/en/Kodak_Sells_Image_Senor_Business_to_Platinum_Equity.htm
http://www.kodak.com/ek/US/en/Kodak_Sells_Image_Senor_Business_to_Platinum_Equity.htm
CFynn
Veteran Member
So now one merger & acquisition company has a big stake in Leica and another owns their sensor supplier. If the two get together they could have Leica by the balls.
petertan1959
Well-known member
ha ha ha
ALL major dslr makers are using CMOS sensors for SEVERAL YEARS now.Nikon d70 & Canon 1d are the last models that have ccd sensors. not sure about this but the point is - it was several years ago!in diigital years those are in prehistoric times.
Leica has been using CCD on M9 and I believe some of you are saying this results in "better" images because CCD is better than CMOS.
So now Leica is admitting that their technology is behind everyone else???
JamieTux
Veteran Member
its different Peter, not better or worse or are you now saying that dslr cameras automatically have better image quality than digital medium format backs?
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James
http://photos.jamestux.com
http://photos.flickr.com/jamestux
http://blog.jamestux.com
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James
http://photos.jamestux.com
http://photos.flickr.com/jamestux
http://blog.jamestux.com
petertan1959
Well-known member
if you are going to compare then compare oranges to oranges and apples to apples.
if you are going to compare ff leica then compare it to ff nikon and ff canon.
dslr have several classes too you know.
since leica said that CMOS is the future logic would dictate that since canon, nikon, sony, panasonic, fujifilm, etc are using CMOS then using simple reasoning it also means that canon, nikon, sony, panasonic, fujifilm are the FUTURE.
and since the FUTURE is here because they use CMOS then logic again dictates that Leica is the PAST?
in laptop terms, if all other laptops brands are using i7 core and your brand is still using c2d then which laptop is behind in technology?
maybe some of you would say the c2d still runs photoshop!
but when you compare prices, the c2d costs 3x the i7 laptop???
JamieTux
Veteran Member
I am, you said that CMOS was better and the future, many have stated that the Leica chip is more like a scaled down MF sensor than most other 35mm format chips.
Why are the cameras where cost is less of an issue all still using CCD? I think that's a valid question back to you.
Because they both use cmos?
There are advantages to both approaches - this has been debated thousands of times or more on the internet - here's a fairly unbiased page (from a company that makes both types of sensor) with summarries and further links
http://www.teledynedalsa.com/corp/markets/ccd_vs_cmos.aspx
Yep - I am aware of that
That is some weird logic - does it also make my 90s webcam the future as it's CMOS? Rather than pick one type of sensor I think that they are all going with the right technology for them. All of them are dependent on live view and CMOS seems to have an advantage there at the moment (probably lower power and as a consequence less heat to dissipate too) - so CMOS straight away would be the winner for that reason.
By your flawed logic, yes - to anyone that uses them (and medium format) no - it's just not that simple - get the tool that works for what YOU want to do - but the d700 gave me no practical benefit compared to the M9 which is why I switched.
The one using the chip that has been REPLACED by the SAME manufacturer in the SAME product line will be a better processor. That's a completely different scenario.
Maybe some would - I am also sure that EVERYONE would agree that in general the i7 will be a better processor, which is another reason that your logic doesn't make sense.
How's that relevant?
You are missing the whole point - there is not a perfect sensor or a perfect camera, at any cost.
If CCDs are so old then why are NASA using them in launches this year?
http://www.kodak.com/eknec/PageQuerier.jhtml?pq-path=2709&gpcid=0900688a80ff4288&ignoreLocale=true&pq-locale=en_US&_requestid=1014
http://www.teledynedalsa.com/corp/news/news.aspx?itemID=356
You are also missing other important elements like colour filter arrays, micro lenses (and angles), base ISO sensitivity, what point information is digitised, filters (anti alias, IR, UV, etc) that all have an impact on the ultimate output.
Can you please just accept that you have an opinion and my opinion is different, and that other people's opinions, needs and wants are different to yours?
My point in our exchanges has always been that you need to look at what is best for a situation or range of situations - if you look in isolation you can make anything appear to be 'the best' and if it was ALL about absolute resolution and dynamic range then we'd all be shooting large format (8x10 or bigger) black and white sheet film.
--
James
http://photos.jamestux.com
http://photos.flickr.com/jamestux
http://blog.jamestux.com
petertan1959
Well-known member
Can you please just accept that you have an opinion and my opinion is different, and that other people's opinions, needs and wants are different to yours?
then why are you arguing against my points? based on your suggestion - why not ACCEPT it?
that is what i like about leica m9 users. at first they say that the m9 is a "superior: piece of machinery that even the best canon or nikon cannot come close to its imagery.
when facts are presented - in this case an admission from Leica itself - that CMOS is the future, they would still not accept it.
they now use other criteria that are superfluous like
colour filter arrays, micro lenses (and angles), base ISO sensitivity, what point information is digitised, filters (anti alias, IR, UV, etc) that all have an impact on the ultimate output
when sensors are discussed they would say that lens are better.
when lens are discussed they would say that CCD sensors are better.
when AF systems are discussed they would say Manual Focus gives the "artist" better control on how to capture the "moment"
they always find a way to bring the conversion into something intangible so that facts are not the basis of a comparison to show the silliness of their arguments.
BS
then why are you arguing against my points? based on your suggestion - why not ACCEPT it?
that is what i like about leica m9 users. at first they say that the m9 is a "superior: piece of machinery that even the best canon or nikon cannot come close to its imagery.
when facts are presented - in this case an admission from Leica itself - that CMOS is the future, they would still not accept it.
they now use other criteria that are superfluous like
colour filter arrays, micro lenses (and angles), base ISO sensitivity, what point information is digitised, filters (anti alias, IR, UV, etc) that all have an impact on the ultimate output
when sensors are discussed they would say that lens are better.
when lens are discussed they would say that CCD sensors are better.
when AF systems are discussed they would say Manual Focus gives the "artist" better control on how to capture the "moment"
they always find a way to bring the conversion into something intangible so that facts are not the basis of a comparison to show the silliness of their arguments.
BS
JamieTux
Veteran Member
Because you are stating your opinions as fact and you are ignoring evidence and information that shows that they are opinions.
I've not said that or seen anyone else say that.
If Leica have said that a future camera will be CMOS based then the fact is that a future camera will be CMOS based, it does not change the quality of the m9 sensor or make CMOS better for all applications.
Did you read any of the links that I sent?
I am glad that you dismiss them as superfluous, i think it shows the level of understanding that you have.
I think that modern AF is incredibly good at focussing quickly and tracking movement on the high end Nikons and Canons. I am sure that if you could magically change the m9 to have the same kind of AF coverage, speed and sophistication without adding cost, weight, complexity or bulk then I would guess that most users here would be OK with that.
I might be wrong but I think people are probably trying to explain range finders to you, and the ability to see more than the lens so that you can focus and compose and wait for your subject to enter the frame.
Sorry to sound like a stuck record but this is a better way of working for some people and some situations, no camera is perfect for every situation.
And you seem to ignore most of the replies that you get and instead only respond to the pieces that you feel prove your point without trying to further your understanding.
Which point is BS? That I don't think CMOS technology gives you a better image in all situations or the fact that I've given examples of NASA still buying CCDs for new missions or the fact that there is more to a sensor than just the silicon?
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James
http://photos.jamestux.com
http://photos.flickr.com/jamestux
http://blog.jamestux.com
because noone accepts that pseudo-knoledge you're presenting here, without being able to proof any of your absurd theories.
lots of people tried to educate you a little bit, but you're very resistant.
it's the other way around, people like you come to this forum and say all leica users are morons and are using old technology, aren't able to take action shots etc.
why don't you simply give a proof of what you're talking and I mean a proof with your own photos! because even in you flickr stream I see nothing which justifies your big words. and now tell us again, those are just photos for discussions and your questions...if you have that much questions about photography then please go to some beginner forum.
and again, give proof, I bet anything that you wouldn't be able to distinguish between the sensors or cameras which were used on any photo.
look into the mirror and try to think, it won't hurt.
well thats finally true, all you type is digital garbage and bs.
after all I agree that the best thing to do is just ignore the digital garbage you produce.
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cheers
laki
Homer: If The Flintstones has taught us anything, it's that pelicans can be used to mix cement.
http://www.konstantinou.com
petertan1959
Well-known member
/ I bet anything that you wouldn't be able to distinguish between the sensors or cameras which were used on any photo./
so let me step back a bit and digest that small piece of sentence....
what you are trying to say is that my nex 3 will produce the same great photos from your m9? is that what you want to convey?
WOW you just admitted that you just wasted $10k to take pictures of equal quality to my Nex3!
by the way laki try to look at your galleries 1st before being a critic to others.
your race car set are BLURRY
your street scene (with the street musicians) has no story? everyone in the picture is looking this way & that. there is no central story to the picture.
picture L1000151 with the lady walking and wheelchair with the football in the air? nothing is sharp! what is your central theme there?
picture L1000187 with the guy smoking reading the newspaper. the chairs are distrcting. the top sign banner was cropped and the viewer eyes are drawn to this cropped letters.there is the blurry guy sitting across the street that is also a distraction.
picture L1000243 church scene.wrong use of fisheye/uw lens. the angle is "weird". you want the uw view to converge on the central theme. what is the central theme? the lighted window?there is another windows on the upper right that is also a distraction.
so let me step back a bit and digest that small piece of sentence....
what you are trying to say is that my nex 3 will produce the same great photos from your m9? is that what you want to convey?
WOW you just admitted that you just wasted $10k to take pictures of equal quality to my Nex3!
by the way laki try to look at your galleries 1st before being a critic to others.
your race car set are BLURRY
your street scene (with the street musicians) has no story? everyone in the picture is looking this way & that. there is no central story to the picture.
picture L1000151 with the lady walking and wheelchair with the football in the air? nothing is sharp! what is your central theme there?
picture L1000187 with the guy smoking reading the newspaper. the chairs are distrcting. the top sign banner was cropped and the viewer eyes are drawn to this cropped letters.there is the blurry guy sitting across the street that is also a distraction.
picture L1000243 church scene.wrong use of fisheye/uw lens. the angle is "weird". you want the uw view to converge on the central theme. what is the central theme? the lighted window?there is another windows on the upper right that is also a distraction.
LOL, thanks for the laugh.
--
cheers
laki
Homer: If The Flintstones has taught us anything, it's that pelicans can be used to mix cement.
http://www.konstantinou.com
Irakly Shanidze
Veteran Member
stealth3kpl
Leading Member
This is a cracking shot of a motor cyclist. Is this with the Nex3 or your Alpha? What lens were you using?
Pete
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mrchombee67/
There are people who use cameras to make photos and there are people who make photos to use cameras. - John Sypal
Pete
--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mrchombee67/
There are people who use cameras to make photos and there are people who make photos to use cameras. - John Sypal
stealth3kpl
Leading Member
Duh, sorry, it's called a sony alpha nex3. I'm not up with digital cameras. What lens was used? Nice work.
Pete
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mrchombee67/
There are people who use cameras to make photos and there are people who make photos to use cameras. - John Sypal
Pete
--This is a cracking shot of a motor cyclist. Is this with the Nex3 or your Alpha? What lens were you using?
Pete
--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mrchombee67/
There are people who use cameras to make photos and there are people who make photos to use cameras. - John Sypal
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mrchombee67/
There are people who use cameras to make photos and there are people who make photos to use cameras. - John Sypal
Irakly Shanidze
Veteran Member
Leica stated that CMOS was the future, not the present. At the time of stating, CMOS technology was not convincing enough in terms of possible image quality to warrant using in in the M9. Things are developing fast, though.
Irakly Shanidze
http://www.shanidze.com/en
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Irakly Shanidze
http://www.shanidze.com/en
jase
Leading Member
That or Leica couldn't find anyone that would make one for them at a price they were willing to pay at the time the M9 was developed.
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jase
MoreorLess
Veteran Member
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I wouldnt be supprized if "the future" in this case ment Leica's rumoured mirrorless system, possible with Panasonic providing the sensor?
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