Adobe backs down

ProDesignTools · Jan 13, 2012

Steve Bingham said:
M. Mitchell said:

I use Photoshop CS4. I do not have the suite. Under the new policy will I be able to upgrade to Photoshop CS6?

Click to expand...

Yes, most definitely. With this new policy, any current owners of either CS3 or CS4 products - either individual applications or suite editions - will be able to get upgrade pricing to CS6.

For more details

http://prodesigntools.com/adobe-cs6-new-upgrade-policy-changes-postponed-cs3-cs4.html

Simon Garrett said:
LibbyS said:

...which is better than the original declaration...

Click to expand...

but not much better. They're merely pushing the problem out until CS7, in the hope that everyone will have forgotten about it by then.

Well, one big and helpful improvement is it gives more notice to current customers plus the chance to actually see & try the next release before needing to decide on upgrading.

MurryG · Jan 13, 2012

At least this might give us amateurs one last chance for a reasonable upgrade?? If it's not loaded with goodies and this turns out to be the last chance, I can live with CS5 :0)
Murry
--
http://www.grigsbys.smugmug.com/

Barry Pearson · Jan 14, 2012

Steve Bingham said:
. . . and Adobe pushed DNG as hard as they could but most, like Nikon, Canon, and others firmly rejected it. I mean there was a major campaign to make DNG universal.

It is disappointing that the major manufacturers don't use DNG. It has become a format used by niche and minor manufacturers.

But that doesn't make it redundant. The industry as a whole is better off with it, and it offers options to photographers that they can take up if they choose. (Many do; most don't, at least yet). It obviously isn't going away, so even those without an immediate need for it should "believe in DNG".

Most camera manufacturers don't use NEF, and neither do most photographers, but that doesn't mean we "shouldn't believe in NEF". It is part of the scene. (Although in that case there would be less impact on the industry if NEF went away than if DNG went away).

Steve Bingham said:
JPG, tiff, etc all all universal but there is some revenue generated that goes to someone somewhere, but a small fraction of what could be generated if they were not universal standards.

I'm not sure what point you are making here. TIFF has the same status as DNG: a free-to-use file format owned by Adobe, used by lots of people but not everyone. And Adobe don't charge for either of them, so I'm not sure what the reference to revenues is about.

Steve Bingham said:
Barry Pearson said:

flbrit said:

Hands up those who believe in DNG after this fiasco!

Click to expand...

Everyone should!

Click to expand...

Toermalijn · Jan 14, 2012

For us it's free, but i bet it's not free if you want to implement tiff or dng into your own program.

Barry Pearson said:
Steve Bingham said:

. . . and Adobe pushed DNG as hard as they could but most, like Nikon, Canon, and others firmly rejected it. I mean there was a major campaign to make DNG universal.

Click to expand...

It is disappointing that the major manufacturers don't use DNG. It has become a format used by niche and minor manufacturers.

But that doesn't make it redundant. The industry as a whole is better off with it, and it offers options to photographers that they can take up if they choose. (Many do; most don't, at least yet). It obviously isn't going away, so even those without an immediate need for it should "believe in DNG".

Most camera manufacturers don't use NEF, and neither do most photographers, but that doesn't mean we "shouldn't believe in NEF". It is part of the scene. (Although in that case there would be less impact on the industry if NEF went away than if DNG went away).

Barry Pearson said:

JPG, tiff, etc all all universal but there is some revenue generated that goes to someone somewhere, but a small fraction of what could be generated if they were not universal standards.

Click to expand...

I'm not sure what point you are making here. TIFF has the same status as DNG: a free-to-use file format owned by Adobe, used by lots of people but not everyone. And Adobe don't charge for either of them, so I'm not sure what the reference to revenues is about.

Barry Pearson said:

Barry Pearson said:

flbrit said:

Hands up those who believe in DNG after this fiasco!

Click to expand...

Everyone should!

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Marcin 3M · Jan 14, 2012

.NET supports TIFF import and export, lots of open source packages do that as well. Maybe some tiff extensions (like CMYK) are restricted, but I think TIFF is open now.

Speaking about DNG - i don't care if it is standard, or not, as long as processing settings are not portable between RAW processors.
IMO boycott of DNG by most camera companies is a good step to limit greediness
of "big A".
--
Marcin_3M

Toermalijn · Jan 14, 2012

Yeah, now the camera companies can be greedy by limiting support of their format in other programs.

Marcin 3M said:
.NET supports TIFF import and export, lots of open source packages do that as well. Maybe some tiff extensions (like CMYK) are restricted, but I think TIFF is open now.

Speaking about DNG - i don't care if it is standard, or not, as long as processing settings are not portable between RAW processors.
IMO boycott of DNG by most camera companies is a good step to limit greediness
of "big A".
--
Marcin_3M

suddie1215 · Jan 14, 2012

Yeah, because its greedy to give away a file format for free.

BTW, Adobe also owns the TIFF format through its acqusiition of Aldus. Do you pay anything to use TIFFs?

Marcin 3M said:
.NET supports TIFF import and export, lots of open source packages do that as well. Maybe some tiff extensions (like CMYK) are restricted, but I think TIFF is open now.

Speaking about DNG - i don't care if it is standard, or not, as long as processing settings are not portable between RAW processors.
IMO boycott of DNG by most camera companies is a good step to limit greediness
of "big A".
--
Marcin_3M

Barry Pearson · Jan 14, 2012

Toermalijn said:
For us it's free, but i bet it's not free if you want to implement tiff or dng into your own program.

Totally free, and no need to notify Adobe. You already have a published license (on the Adobe website) to use DNG in your programs! You can freely download the source-code-based SDK too.

This is contrast to every other raw image format. Try finding a license to use those! (In fact, try finding a specification for them published by the manufacturer). Try getting an SDK from Nikon for NEF. It will be library-based, not source-code-based, and you will have to show you are a genuine developer.

When ISO were developing TIFF/EP, Adobe gave them permission to freely use TIFF. But the following qualification appears in the specification:

"The International Organization for Standardization (ISO) draws attention to the fact that it is claimed that compliance with this International Standard may involve the use of patents from the following companies: Canon Inc. - Eastman Kodak Co. - Fuji Photo Film Co. Ltd. - Nikon Corp - Olympus Optical Co. Ltd."

Adobe gave PDF to ISO, who have created at least 3 (free-to-use) standards from it. They have given DNG to ISO and the new TIFF/EP will support it.

Adobe is not the problem with these file formats. If you are suspicious of Adobe, you ought to very worried about the rest!

Barry Pearson · Jan 14, 2012

Marcin 3M said:
IMO boycott of DNG by most camera companies is a good step to limit greediness
of "big A".

Please explain what difference such a boycott will make to Adobe!

DNG is a free-to-use resource paid for by Adobe. Who benefits from such a boycott?

And why not boycott NEF or CR2 for the same reasons?

JerryG1 · Jan 14, 2012

Barry Pearson said:
Toermalijn said:

For us it's free, but i bet it's not free if you want to implement tiff or dng into your own program.

Click to expand...

Totally free, and no need to notify Adobe. You already have a published license (on the Adobe website) to use DNG in your programs! You can freely download the source-code-based SDK too.

Free today, but I wonder, can Adobe retract that license some day and charge for the use of dng or tiff. Do they still own either of those formats?

Any lawyers in the crowd?

--
JerryG

My galleries at:
http://www.pbase.com/jerryg1

Simon Garrett · Jan 14, 2012

JerryG1 said:
Free today, but I wonder, can Adobe retract that license some day and charge for the use of dng or tiff. Do they still own either of those formats?

Any lawyers in the crowd?

I haven't checked recently but I seem to recall they've given a perpetual licence. There are many reasons to criticise Adobe, but I don't think this is one of them.
--
Simon

Barry Pearson · Jan 14, 2012

Simon Garrett said:
JerryG1 said:

Free today, but I wonder, can Adobe retract that license some day and charge for the use of dng or tiff. Do they still own either of those formats?

Click to expand...

Yes, they still own them. (But sooner or later there will be an ISO standard that is compatible with DNG, and ISO rather than Adobe will be in control of that standard).

Adobe created PDF, then gave it to ISO who created at least 3 ISO standards from it. ISO uses XMP in various standards. Adobe gave TIFF to ISO (and ISO then created TIFF/EP from it, which is the basis of NEF, etc). Adobe doesn't try to make money that way.

Don't confuse Adobe with Nikon, Canon, etc, who haven't published a license for people to incorporate NEF, CR2, etc, into their products.

Simon Garrett said:
Simon Garrett said:

Any lawyers in the crowd?

Click to expand...

I haven't checked recently but I seem to recall they've given a perpetual licence.

Correct.

JerryG1 · Jan 14, 2012

.. but since going back on their update pricing promise to CS3-CS5 buyers, I don't have the greatest confidence in Adobe's resolve to comply with their promises.

Barry Pearson said:
Simon Garrett said:

JerryG1 said:

Free today, but I wonder, can Adobe retract that license some day and charge for the use of dng or tiff. Do they still own either of those formats?

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Yes, they still own them. (But sooner or later there will be an ISO standard that is compatible with DNG, and ISO rather than Adobe will be in control of that standard).
...

--
JerryG

My galleries at:
http://www.pbase.com/jerryg1

Toermalijn · Jan 14, 2012

As long you keep using Adobe products, you won't have any problems at all.

The other companies charge for upgrades also. Every year. So, basically Adobe just joined the rest. Adobe is also one of few who let you install the software on 2 computers. It's not all that bad.

JerryG1 said:
.. but since going back on their update pricing promise to CS3-CS5 buyers, I don't have the greatest confidence in Adobe's resolve to comply with their promises.

Barry Pearson said:

Simon Garrett said:

JerryG1 said:

Free today, but I wonder, can Adobe retract that license some day and charge for the use of dng or tiff. Do they still own either of those formats?

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Yes, they still own them. (But sooner or later there will be an ISO standard that is compatible with DNG, and ISO rather than Adobe will be in control of that standard).
...

Click to expand...

--
JerryG

My galleries at:
http://www.pbase.com/jerryg1

Simon Garrett · Jan 14, 2012

JerryG1 said:
.. but since going back on their update pricing promise to CS3-CS5 buyers, I don't have the greatest confidence in Adobe's resolve to comply with their promises.

Is that correct? I mean: did they promise CS3-CS5 buyers something they renegged on? I'm not doubting you, it's just that I've never seen a promise that future upgrades would work 3 versions back.
--
Simon

graybalanced · Jan 14, 2012

OK two questions:

When was it a promise?

Was the correct solution to stick to their guns and say "sorry, we will continue to give you the worse deal despite your protests?" Or what they did do, which is "sorry, we will go back to giving you the original deal?"

I understand that the best course was to not change the deal in the first place, but given that it's too late for that, did you actually want them to stick to the bad deal?

JerryG1 said:
.. but since going back on their update pricing promise to CS3-CS5 buyers, I don't have the greatest confidence in Adobe's resolve to comply with their promises.

Gale Bizet · Jan 14, 2012

the way I read it..????

Read the print well...
--
Nikon Gal
Best Regards
Gale

http://www.pbase.com/techwish

JerryG1 · Jan 14, 2012

Simon Garrett said:
Is that correct? I mean: did they promise CS3-CS5 buyers something they renegged on? ....

I think they did. The promise was in the form of a publicized policy that said upgrade pricing applies to owners of PS up to three versions back. To me, that means that anyone who bought CS5 while that policy was in effect should expect deeply discounted pricing on CS8 no matter what policy is in effect then. The policy in effect at the time of purchase is the promise.

Naturally, I can't now find anything on Adobe's site with the wording of their upgrade policy through late 2011 while CS3-CS5 were being sold, but here is a quote from Rob Galbraith's's Nov 12, 2011 Digital Photography Insights

"The existing [Adobe] practice is to allow customers to purchase the newest version at the upgrade price if they own an existing version up to three major releases back."

Apparently I'm not the only one who thought that.

Hope my auto maker does not send me letter saying they changed their policy, and cut my warrantee from 60,000 to 20,000 miles

JerryG

My galleries at:
http://www.pbase.com/jerryg1

JerryG1 · Jan 14, 2012

graybalanced said:
When was it a promise?

Was the correct solution to stick to their guns and say "sorry, we will continue to give you the worse deal despite your protests?" Or what they did do, which is "sorry, we will go back to giving you the original deal?"

I understand that the best course was to not change the deal in the first place, but given that it's too late for that, did you actually want them to stick to the bad deal?

JerryG1 said:

.. but since going back on their update pricing promise to CS3-CS5 buyers, I don't have the greatest confidence in Adobe's resolve to comply with their promises.

Click to expand...

I think You misunderstand me graybalanced. You may also have a different take on Adobe's current position than I do.

In a nutshell, yes, I want Adobe to go back to their old policy for purchasers of CS3,4, and 5. I want those purchasers to be able to next upgrade 3 major versions ahead as promised through late 2011 through their publicized upgrade policy. Let Adobe make their new policy anyway they want, but it don't lay it on those who bought under the old one.

--
JerryG

My galleries at:
http://www.pbase.com/jerryg1

bronxbombers · Jan 16, 2012

sounds to me like they will just make the non-subscription upgrades priced horribly rather than that the cloud stuff will be so great.... great

stormyboy said:
Here's what John Nack says in his blog
http://blogs.adobe.com/jnack/

QUOTE FROM JOHN NACK BLOG:
New upgrade options for CS3 and CS4 customers

In November Adobe announced Creative Cloud subscriptions, a new combination of CS desktop apps, cloud services, and touch tools. Unfortunately, on the whole we’ve done a poor job of explaining the real benefits to customers, leading to considerable confusion & concern. I’m sorry for the pain that’s resulted.

First, let’s be clear: Adobe does well when you do well. Subscriptions have to be good for customers, or they’re not going to be good for Adobe–period.

What sucks is that the very real advantages of subscriptions (most notably, faster access to feature improvements) have gotten drowned out by the perceived disadvantages. The whole story is clumsy because Adobe hasn’t announced a CS6 version, or any real details about pricing, etc. Now’s not the time for that (sorry–I wish we could share more right now), so I can only ask for your patience. Subscriptions will be more interesting & attractive than you might think, so please stay tuned.

Meanwhile, I’m pleased to say that Adobe has announced a new introductory upgrade offer for customers using CS3/CS4:

•The old deal: If you were on CS4 or earlier at the time CS6 shipped, getting a subscription would be the only way to upgrade to CS6.

•The new deal: If you’re on CS3 or CS4 when CS6 ships, you’ll have until the end of 2012 to upgrade to CS6. You can of course choose a subscription option, and we think you’ll want to.
•Bottom line: During 2012, you don’t have to buy CS5 just to buy CS6.
As I say, please do stay tuned, and please let us know what you think.

[Update in response to comments below: If you recently purchased CS 5.5 and have questions/concerns about that order in relation to this upgrade announcement, please contact customer service so that they can assist you.]

END OF JOHN NACK BLOG QUOTE

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