Panasonic GF3 versus Olympus E-PM

safe a bit more money and go for the newer sensor in m43 instead of either cam with the old 12MP sensor....
Not possible for $400 yet....and the latest generation of the 12MP sensor is really pretty good (having owned a G2, an EPL1, and now a GF3, I can tell you for sure that the one in the GF3 is a LOT better...whatever tweaks they have done to it have made a significant difference in performance.)
Yup, I know... that's why wait a bit... assuming he will use the cam for at least 2 years (probably more) it's a well worth wait I believe. If you can wait it out (lets say) 2 more months, save some more $$, and get the new 16MP sensor, it's worth it
I personally wouldn't invest in a GF3 because the lack of physical buttons - I don't feel fine doing everything on a touchscreen, takes too much time and I would keep cleaning the screen from fingerprints.
The GF3 does not use a touchscreen for everything. It has a rear dial and buttons...I never use the touchscreen on mine and am constantly changing aperture, shutter, WB and ISO directly with the rear dial and click control and the buttons on the back.... You can set it up to not have to use the touchscreen AT ALL if you want.....
Mmm, my mistake then. I believed the touch screen couldn't be disabled on GF3. I take that comment back then.
And it has exactly the same amount of dials and buttons as the EPM1....
Also if you aren't going to shoot in RAW but in JPG, pick Oly.... Panny isn't any good in JPG
No, not true. The GF3 has a quite good jpg engine.....you would be surprised, I think; it's much better than any of their previous iterations.

-J
I know the JPG engine of the GF3 (friend has one) and I'm still not impressed by it... Maybe I'm just too much demanding. Ok true - it IS better as the one in the G1 (much better) but I don't like the color casts it gives indoor or in some night scenes... Outside on a sunny day there should be no issues with it... It's still a lot better than the general P&S, but for camera's in this price and which this technology I for one would demand better :)... RAW pictures are way better than the JPG's it produces.
 
  1. better high iso vs GF2 (unsure of GF3)
??? Same sensor? Identical performance I would think.
RAW
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/olympusepm1/page20.asp

JPEG
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/olympusepm1/page19.asp

For the GF2 the noise is worse (I selected it from the drop down next to the GF3, so I could see all 3 at once). The GF3 looks very similar to the EPM1. I wasn't sure, but now I know it's not an issue. The GF2 falls apart at 1600, while the GF3 and EPM1 hold up quite nicely for their sensor size.
  1. IBIS for every lens you put on it, even legacy
This is an advantage for Panasonic, the IBIS is flaky, I'd rather have an OIS lens that's more reliable.
That's why it's also listed as a con. You have to be careful with it and if you are, it works. Off when not needed is the best policy. The same is true of OIS though as well, but not as much (except on the X lenses where it's horrible).
  1. Better OOC jpegs
Olympus jpegs are overrated, I prefer to shoot RAW for important photos.
  1. Easier RAW editing for beginners with OV2 (but can still go "pro" later)
No, Olympus Master sucks. Canon has a much better free RAW program. You need to buy something like PhotoShop if you want to shoot RAW and get better results than the out of camera JPEGs.
Olympus Master is old. Olympus Viewer 2 is newer, but it is similar. I regularly use it and get better Jpegs with it than OOC jpegs. No it is not as powerful as "real" RAW editors. But it is easier to use. After fighting with SilkyPix just trying to add some exposure compensation, fix white balance and create a better jpeg for weeks after reading many very good tutorials I got frustrated. I'm a programmer, so it's not techinical knowledge of how to use the software, but rather how to tweak it without ruining it.

No knowledge of Lightroom or the like, so can't comment there. But the experience of a beginner in Raw processing, OV2 is much better!
I don't have a Panasonic, but I think the E-PM1 is a great camera and lens for $450, IBIS issues aside. But I wouldn' be afraid to buy panasonic either. However, the flash hotshoe is a pretty important option if you want to use the camera as a DSLR replacement. A real flash like the FL36R that bounces off the ceiling takes your photos to a whole new level above the free included flash.
Looks like the GF3 fixed the ISO noise I see in the GF2, but lost the hotshoe in the process. I agree a bounce flash is pretty important to serious photography. You can "fake it" by pulling the pop up flash back to point at the ceiling in both the GF2 and GF3, but it's still a low power unit. Plus the E-PM1 can control remote flashes to get even fancier!
 
The LCD in both is 3". However, because of the way Olympus chose to use the display ratios, actual visual area is much smaller than that of the GF3. (Try them out in the store next to each other, you will see what I mean). The GF3 has a nice, bright display which is very easy to see outdoors; Olympus has been a bit behind the curve on this in the past, however with the external viewfinder attachment, you would have an advantage over any LCD only camera.
-J
Is the height of LCD on the GF3 longer than the E-PM1? Looking at my E-PM1 the 4:3 format fills it vertically, so the camera can not use more of the horizontal length than it does when displaying 4:3. They would have to make the LCD vertically longer, which they can't do with the vertical size of the camera. I agree that the LCD on the E-PM1 is not great.

--
Frank B
Nikon P7100 Gallery
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Olympus Master is old. Olympus Viewer 2 is newer, but it is similar. I regularly use it and get better Jpegs with it than OOC jpegs. No it is not as powerful as "real" RAW editors. But it is easier to use. After fighting with SilkyPix just trying to add some exposure compensation, fix white balance and create a better jpeg for weeks after reading many very good tutorials I got frustrated. I'm a programmer, so it's not techinical knowledge of how to use the software, but rather how to tweak it without ruining it.
Remove SilkyPix, it's crap...

Get Photoshop CS5 and Adobe Camera Raw... Try the demo, that's for free in a trial period. You'll love it.

The ability to make all the corrections you need for a shot (of course able to save your own presets, lens corrections and so on) in ACR and after opening it up in PS gives you a million possibilities.

If you're not into post-processing further than RAW to JPG (or other formats) conversion, of course it doesn't make sense to get CS5, costs too much for just that functionality, which is a free plug-in for PS.
 
For the GF2 the noise is worse (I selected it from the drop down next to the GF3, so I could see all 3 at once). The GF3 looks very similar to the EPM1. I wasn't sure, but now I know it's not an issue. The GF2 falls apart at 1600, while the GF3 and EPM1 hold up quite nicely for their sensor size.
You know, I went to the comparison page and I looked at the RAW comparison, and I think you are right. In fact, I think that the order is as follows:

G3 > EPM1 > GF3 > EF2

The EPM1 seems to make slightly better RAW files from the same sensor. But there's an even bigger improvement if you go to the G3.
Olympus Master is old. Olympus Viewer 2 is newer, but it is similar. I regularly use it and get better Jpegs with it than OOC jpegs. No it is not as powerful as "real" RAW editors. But it is easier to use. After fighting with SilkyPix just trying to add some exposure compensation, fix white balance and create a better jpeg for weeks after reading many very good tutorials I got frustrated. I'm a programmer, so it's not techinical knowledge of how to use the software, but rather how to tweak it without ruining it.

No knowledge of Lightroom or the like, so can't comment there. But the experience of a beginner in Raw processing, OV2 is much better!
I probably meant to say OV2 then. I did install the software that came with the EPM1 and found it all useless. Photoshop with Bridge just blows it away.

I don't use Lightroom, but it has the same Adobe Camera Raw plugin that Photoshop uses.

The raw converter that comes with Canon cameras is a lot better. Not that we are comparing anything to Canon here.
 
E-pl2.

Same senor, same lens, better controls, better ergonomics, built in flash, lower price.

Done.

Tedolph
 
The LCD in both is 3". However, because of the way Olympus chose to use the display ratios, actual visual area is much smaller than that of the GF3. (Try them out in the store next to each other, you will see what I mean). The GF3 has a nice, bright display which is very easy to see outdoors; Olympus has been a bit behind the curve on this in the past, however with the external viewfinder attachment, you would have an advantage over any LCD only camera.
-J
Is the height of LCD on the GF3 longer than the E-PM1? Looking at my E-PM1 the 4:3 format fills it vertically, so the camera can not use more of the horizontal length than it does when displaying 4:3. They would have to make the LCD vertically longer, which they can't do with the vertical size of the camera. I agree that the LCD on the E-PM1 is not great.
Ok, I broke out my calculator and did some math for this one. I will spare you the math and give you the results:

The native screen proportions of the EPM1 are 16:9
The GF3's are 3:2

Useable height of the EPM1 screen is (approximately) 1 7/16" (1.44")
Useable height of the GF3 screen is 1 5/8" (1.625")

When viewing a photo in 4:3 format on the EPM1, using the full height of the screen, the diagonal measure of viewing area is 2.4"

When viewing a photo in 4:3 format on the GF3, using the full height of the screen the diagonal measure of viewing area is 2.75"

This may not seem like that much, but in terms of actual viewing area, the GF3 has almost 30% more viewing area when displaying 4:3 format photos on the rear LCD.

Hope this helps,
-Janet
 
Wow, thanks for all the replies guys. Some good points made by both fans of Olympus and Panasonic.

I assume choosing the size of the aperture and choosing the focus range...basic things like that are very well implemented by both companies??

Some of you guys have mentioned older models but I always assume they have older sensors and just not as advance. The reviews on this website stated that the Olympus E-PM1 has most of the features as the more expensive E-P3 and E-PL3. But the Panasonic G and GH series have much better sensors and noise reduction...am I right?

One thing I'm still looking at is another lens...roughly a 50-150mm lens. Price is an important consideration.

Thanks!
 
I assume choosing the size of the aperture and choosing the focus range...basic things like that are very well implemented by both companies??
Shouldn't really matter right? I mean you can put a Panasonic lens on the Olympus or an Olympus lens on the Panasonic. Or a Sigma lens on either. Or a Samyang. Or do you mean as in actually entering those settings on the camera? It's not hard on my GF3 and it's rumored to have the less buttony interface.

I have a GF3 next to me. I bought it for about the opposite reasons you suggested; I wanted small, portable and didn't care about expandability (I have a DSLR for that wallet gobbling). In your case though, I would go with the Olympus. The only reason I didn't was I couldn't find a good deal on a E-PM1 with a pancake. Thus the GF3 with 14mm won out. The 14mm might be replaced with the 14-42 X lens.

Still, having played with the Oly and the Panny they're both a lot of fun!
 
What I mean by aperture and focus is the manual settings on the camera. Sorry if I wasn't being clear.
 
You can touch the screen to focus down on something. How is that feature coming along with you?
 
Also if you aren't going to shoot in RAW but in JPG, pick Oly.... Panny isn't any good in JPG
Remember Noah, now there's a comment from the Ark!!

Panny aren't very far behind anymore.

I know there'll be scoffs from the oly fanboys but come on, I admit Oly are still no.1 for jpeg but the gh2, g3, gx1 are much closer now and with raw can be so much better.

How about enlightening us with something current.....
 
Some of you guys have mentioned older models but I always assume they have older sensors and just not as advance. The reviews on this website stated that the Olympus E-PM1 has most of the features as the more expensive E-P3 and E-PL3. But the Panasonic G and GH series have much better sensors and noise reduction...am I right?
In the review of the E-PM1 dpreview commented "We can see that the E-PM1's sensor, while on par with its chief rival, the Panasonic Lumix DMC-GF3, produces noisier output than its APS-C competition." I just got my E-PM1 yesterday, and so far I am very pleased with it. :) I went with Olympus and 4:3 due to the fact that its lenses are generally lighter and more compact than the APCS-C and the stabilized lenses from Panasonic and because of the built-in stabilization.

--
Frank B
Nikon P7100 Gallery
http://www.pbase.com/frank_b/nikon_p7100
All Galleries
http://www.pbase.com/frank_b
 
Wow, thanks for all the replies guys. Some good points made by both fans of Olympus and Panasonic.

I assume choosing the size of the aperture and choosing the focus range...basic things like that are very well implemented by both companies??
Setting aperture and shutter speed, choosing ISO and white balance, and auto or manual focus are indeed easy to do if you wish to use the camera that way. I use my GF3 in almost exclusively aperture priority mode, and have it set up to have rapid access via dial and button to aperture, shutter speed, and I have set up the Function button to control ISO. Focus will be handled by the camera or, you can choose manual + auto, or full manual, and focus via the lens ring.

There are some differences between the implementation of these things in both cameras, and you would really need to try them both to see which works for you better.
Some of you guys have mentioned older models but I always assume they have older sensors and just not as advance. The reviews on this website stated that the Olympus E-PM1 has most of the features as the more expensive E-P3 and E-PL3. But the Panasonic G and GH series have much better sensors and noise reduction...am I right?
Not quite... The G3 and the GH2 have different and more advanced sensors, (both with 16MP vs the orginal 12MP sensors) than the GF3 and the EPM1/EPL3/EP3. Earlier generations of Pansonics (G1, G2, GF1, GF2) and Olys used the original 12MP sensors, too. HOWEVER, that being said, the 12MP sensor in the current generation of GF3 and the EPM1/EPL3/EP3 cameras, even though it is based on the same 12MP original sensor, is MUCH less noisy at higher ISOs and has all around better performance than earlier generations of the same sensor in both Panny and Oly cameras.
One thing I'm still looking at is another lens...roughly a 50-150mm lens. Price is an important consideration.
Both Panasonic and Olympus make lenses in that range. The Olympus 40-150 is an excellent zoom and can be had for a good price if you look for sales. It, however does NOT have OIS, so it is a little trickier to use on the long end on the Panasonic bodies. The Pansonic 45-200 does have OIS, but it is a lot bigger and heavier, and might be a bit awkward on either the GF3 or EPM1. The new Panny 45-175X model would be just right, except they still have not quite gotten the OIS on that lens working the way it should....

I think you could do ok with all of them (I have the Oly 40-150 and think it is a terrific lens, even on a my Panasonic camera bodies...it is probably the best bargain of all of this class of lens for M43s yet.)

-J
 
Some of you guys have mentioned older models but I always assume they have older sensors and just not as advance. The reviews on this website stated that the Olympus E-PM1 has most of the features as the more expensive E-P3 and E-PL3. But the Panasonic G and GH series have much better sensors and noise reduction...am I right?
The E-PM1 internal software has all of the same abilities as the more expensive E-P3 (as far as I know), the main difference is that the E-P3 has more buttons and dials, so in order to access some things on the E-PM1 you have to go to the "super control panel" (if you enabled it) instead of have the function direct on a button. So the E-PM1 is a serious camera and not a point-and-shoot.

The G3 and the G1X (or is that the GX1?) have the newer and better 16MP sensor. The GF3 has the older 12 MP sensor, along with the E-PM1.
 
Some of you guys have mentioned older models but I always assume they have older sensors and just not as advance. The reviews on this website stated that the Olympus E-PM1 has most of the features as the more expensive E-P3 and E-PL3. But the Panasonic G and GH series have much better sensors and noise reduction...am I right?
The E-PM1 internal software has all of the same abilities as the more expensive E-P3 (as far as I know), the main difference is that the E-P3 has more buttons and dials, so in order to access some things on the E-PM1 you have to go to the "super control panel" (if you enabled it) instead of have the function direct on a button. So the E-PM1 is a serious camera and not a point-and-shoot.

The G3 and the G1X (or is that the GX1?) have the newer and better 16MP sensor. The GF3 has the older 12 MP sensor, along with the E-PM1.
And don't forget that Panasonic cameras can't do Auto ISO in M mode. Olympus cameras can.

This is very helpful in low light when the light also changes. With Olympus you can fix shutter speed and aperture and camera will select the best ISO depending on the light. With Pansonic you either have to change ISO manually or sacrifice aperture selection if you want to keep shutter speed above certain limit.
 
I haven't used the GF3, but after handling it and the E-PM1 and checking reviews/sample pics/specs of each, I ended up with the E-PM1 and have no regrets whatsoever. I later added the Panny 20mm to it and I'm an even happier man :) I'm not going to detail the pros and cons since they have been pretty well covered by others and I concur with most of what was mentioned. You'll need to decide what pros and cons matter more to you and pick the camera that most addresses YOUR needs.

One thing I didn't experience, which was reported by a substantial number of E-PM1 users, are the problems with the IBIS at higher shutter speeds. I haven't found IBIS to be anything other than a definite asset and never experienced any of the reported flakiness (and, yes, I tested it at 1/100+ speeds). It seems to be a sample/quality control issue, as was suggested, or maybe early production batches had this issue and it was later fixed by Olympus (my camera is one month old). Whatever it is and in case you decide to go with the E-PM1, it should be easy to test your copy to make sure it doesn't have this issue.
 
I assume choosing the size of the aperture and choosing the focus range...basic things like that are very well implemented by both companies??
Both are easy. The GF2 is a bit better.

The GF2 has a thumb wheel that you can easily roll to change aperture (in A mode of course). Press the button in, then the thumb wheel changes exposure compensation.

E-PM1 has a control wheel that also functions as the 4 wheel button on the back. It's more fiddly, but has the same basic operation. If you turn the wheel lock off, then just turning the wheel will change aperture. Hitting up will change the wheel operation to exposure compensation.

E-PM1 turn on the Super Control Panel. Easy access to almost EVERY setting. Awesome Olympus feature. Why oh why they have it off by default and make it hard to turn on I do not know. Seems like it would default to on at least for A/S modes!
Some of you guys have mentioned older models but I always assume they have older sensors and just not as advance. The reviews on this website stated that the Olympus E-PM1 has most of the features as the more expensive E-P3 and E-PL3. But the Panasonic G and GH series have much better sensors and noise reduction...am I right?
Sensors are identical except in the higher Pany models (G3, GH2, GX1). The processing and anti-alias filters and other stuff DOES change, so they are not identical. The E-PM1 sensor has been optimized for autofocus and it is FAST. The GF2 is pretty fast too, but not as fast.
One thing I'm still looking at is another lens...roughly a 50-150mm lens. Price is an important consideration.
The Oly 40-150 can be had for about $150 and is quite small. Gets soft around 120mm or so from what I've read.

Pany 45-200 can be had for $230 from Amazon warehouse deals and is quite a nice lens. Has OIS built in which can be used for video. This lens is a lot bigger and heavier than the Oly.

Pany 45-175 X is $350 from Amazon warehouse deals. Supposed to be sharper that the 45-200, but is also almost half the weight and 1/2 inch shorter. OIS will not work on Olympus bodies. I'm waiting for this one to come in to replace my 45-200 for weight and sharpness.
 
Kevdog, where can I find the Olympus 40-150 for $150? The lowest I've seen is at $210.
 

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